Moderators Gerr Posted June 15, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2011 Okay guys, I'm through. We can't stay to topic. That's because being "in Christ" is only half the gospel, which most guys are not willing to accept. The other half is - is Christ in you? Saving faith is a 2 way transaction. You can't be in Christ and not have Christ in you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 15, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2011 When Jesus went into the holy placeS including the Most Holy Place after His resurrection, it was to consecrate them for His sanctuary work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 15, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2011 Hey, welcome back, John. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Okay guys, I'm through. We can't stay to topic. That's because being "in Christ" is only half the gospel, which most guys are not willing to accept. The other half is - is Christ in you? Saving faith is a 2 way transaction. You can't be in Christ and not have Christ in you. That's what the Harlot of Rev teaches. Maybe you need to join us on the thread "Do We Really Understand Disfellowship?" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 If Christ had entered the Most Holy Place at His ascension to begin the work of atonement He would have contradicted His own teaching in regard to the typical services of the earthly sanctuary. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 If Christ had entered the Most Holy Place at His ascension to begin the work of atonement He would have contradicted His own teaching in regard to the typical services of the earthly sanctuary. sky Sky, you guys are impossible. The gospel is the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ as the Son of God and the Son of Man. No thread of human devising. In other words the gospel is God's perfect work of redemption "in Christ Jesus". Adding to that is "another gospel" which the RCC teaches. Surely, as a SDA, you aren't in line with RCC? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 15, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2011 The Bible is clear. Faith without works, or faith that doesn't work is DEAD. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Christ has given the command, which is the word of His grace: "Abide in Me and I in you." John 15:4. For those of us who rest in the merits of His infinite sacrifice for our acceptance with God, this command is a promise, a most positive promise of its own fulfillment, for "He speaks and it is done!" Psalm 33:6,9. And the life of God which is thus received is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. (Matt.4:4) Thus we read, "The Scriptures are to be received as God's word to us, not merely written but spoken." M.H.122. This is the faith that works and it works by the love of God which is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us, for, Christ said, "The Words that I SPEAK unto you, they are Spirit and they are Life." Gal.5:6; Rom.5:5; John 6:63. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 The Bible is clear. Faith without works, or faith that doesn't work is DEAD. That's not the gospel...it the fruits of accepting the real gospel. Your preoccupation with the fruits without first understanding "the truth as it is in Christ" will lead folks into legalism, which is nauseating to to God. Rev 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to vomit you out of my mouth. [why?] 17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 This is the faith that works and it works by the love of God... yes, that's nice, but again it's not the gospel. Learn the gospel and then the fruits will be correct.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 15, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Does this mean that everyone will be saved except those who make a conscious, deliberate choice to reject Christ? If so, I believe this would be a mistake, since people can reject Christ by their day-to-day choices. In the same way, people choose to reject their spouse-- not necessarily due to a deliberate choice but because they make choices from day to day that finally result in separation and divorce. Not in the same way. To reject a spouse, you first have to know and be married to her. People reject the gospel and Christ all the time without fully knowing either one of them. The Bible shows that people can be in rebellion against Christ without knowing it. They should know it-- they have every reason to know it-- but they don't. Why not? Because the human heart is deceitful and exceedingly wicked. King Saul rejected God while still believing he was accepting Him. The Gospel of Matthew talks about people who will be utterly shocked to find themselves outside the kingdom of God.(Matt. 7: 21-23) It's a dangerous lie to believe that one is automatically in the kingdom of God unless one has deliberately rejected God. Our every day choices and acts show whether we are submitting to God or rebelling against Him. The message of Rev. 3: 14-22 is that people will be lost and rejected by God even while believing themselves to be His servants. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 15, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2011 That's not the gospel...it the fruits of accepting the real gospel. Your preoccupation with the fruits without understanding the truth as it is in Christ will lead you into legalism, which is nauseating to to God. Rev 3:16 So, because you are lukewarm--neither hot nor cold--I am about to vomit you out of my mouth. [why?] 17 You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. Jesus NEVER had a Good News that just meant being "in Christ." "Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit by itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. Jn 15:4,5 ESV. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 I wouldn't put to fine a point on it Sonny, thats been one of the problems with understanding righteouness by faith. I believe both Gerry and Sky are correct in their statements. I've just about come to the conclusion, pretty sure at this point, that trying to hard to exactly define righteousness by faith is why it remains so "elusive" for many. An eloquent solution is something that works really well and is unusually simple at the same time. That is very much like the message righteouness by faith. We tend to make it to complicated and it looses it's eloguence. Much of this, as it was in 1888, is fear based. The "old gaurd" was afraid that if people accepted the message on the subject, as delivered by Jones and Waggoner, they would give up on the necessity of "works". Secondarily, the message Jones and Waggoner were stressing was little different than many Sunday going churches also believed at that time (and even today). Thus the fear that we might be pulled into a "once saved, always saved" type of doctrine. My take on it is that regardless of the danger of some misunderstanding the message and moving to far toward "once saved, always saved" or some similiar aspect of that, the message must still be delivered! Those who truly have a connection with Christ will understand the balance. Those who don't have a strong connection with Christ will never find that balance, no matter how the message is delivered. It is not our job to decide who will and who will not find that balance, our job is to deliver the message, eloguently. Righteousness by faith IS the third angels message, we should not fear to shout it from the roof tops! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Jesus NEVER had a Good News that just meant being "in Christ." I'm sorry, you are wrong. The good news of the gospel is that Christ, through the incarnation, took your life into Himself and in the process rewrote your history. In Him you stand perfect in the heavenly places. That's the gospel! While growing in grace and reflecting him more and more is indeed good news, it's an unfinished work and therefore it doesn't stand up to who we are in Christ by faith. The gospel saves - the fruits is experiencing what we already have in Christ. So if you are depending on your performance - your growth - that's bad news. You aren't good enough. Only in Christ are you complete: Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costl sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God’s Word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in Him.” Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 15, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2011 Hi Gerry!! Thank you. I'm happy to be back, too. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 This is the faith that works and it works by the love of God... yes, that's nice, but again it's not the gospel. Learn the gospel and then the fruits will be correct.... Sonny ___________________________ Why did u pick a few words from my post? Christ has given the command, which is the word of His grace: "Abide in Me and I in you." John 15:4. For those of us who rest in the merits of His infinite sacrifice for our acceptance with God, this command is a promise, a most positive promise of its own fulfillment, for "He speaks and it is done!" Psalm 33:6,9. And the life of God which is thus received is in like manner sustained, by every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God. (Matt.4:4) Thus we read, "The Scriptures are to be received as God's word to us, not merely written but spoken." M.H.122. This is the faith that works and it works by the love of God which is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Spirit which is given unto us, for, Christ said, "The Words that I SPEAK unto you, they are Spirit and they are Life." Gal.5:6; Rom.5:5; John 6:63. The words of His mouth are not mere letters without life. Proceeding out of His mouth they are imbued with His own Spirit, the Spirit of life. "The Spirit is life because of righteousness." Rom.8:10. "I the Lord speak righteousness." Isaiah 45:19. If this is not the Gospel of His merits and grace, what is it? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 15, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 15, 2011 ....So if you are depending on your performance - your growth - that's bad news. You aren't good enough. Only in Christ are you complete:] I don't think anyone is claiming that we can earn our salvation by "being good enough." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Why did u pick a few words from my post? Christ has given the command, which is the word of His grace: "Abide in Me and I in you." John 15:4. For those of us who rest in the merits of His infinite sacrifice for our acceptance with God, this command is a promise Right...And what are we to rest in? His finished work of redemption! Where? "In Christ Jesus". That's the gospel. So in order to rest we need to know the gospel. Hence this is why I wanted us to talk about the gospel. Instead, because folks don't understand the gospel, they have to talk about works...To me this means that their assurance is in their works and not Christ's doing & dying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny ....So if you are depending on your performance - your growth - that's bad news. You aren't good enough. Only in Christ are you complete:] I don't think anyone is claiming that we can earn our salvation by "being good enough." Okay John, I'll use you as a test run. Answer if you want: Are you keeping the commandments? Please, before you answer, keep in mind "the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves" Please just a straight answer - yes or no? Let me add one more quote: "The law of Jehovah is exceedingly broad. Jesus plainly declared to His disciples that this holy law of God may be violated in even the thoughts and feelings and desires, as well as in the word and deed. [OHC 140] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 Why did u pick a few words from my post? Christ has given the command, which is the word of His grace: "Abide in Me and I in you." John 15:4. For those of us who rest in the merits of His infinite sacrifice for our acceptance with God, this command is a promise Right...And what are we to rest in? His finished work of redemption! Where? "In Christ Jesus". That's the gospel. So in order to rest we need to know the gospel. Hence this is why I wanted us to talk about the gospel. Instead, because folks don't understand the gospel, they have to talk about works...To me this means that their assurance is in their works and not Christ's doing & dying. By His complete sacrifice Christ made it possible for the work of redemption to take place in believing Adam down to the last believing soul before He returns in glory. If the work of redemption was already finished, why then has He given this command to every believing soul: "Grow in grace and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ." 2 Peter 3:18. This command is also a promise. It is written, "It is God who works in you both to will and to do His good pleasure." Phil.2:10. If the work of sanctification was already finished at the cross, as you claim, God would not have to work in us both to will and to do His good pleasure. If the work of sanctification was finished at the cross, there would be no need for growth in the Christian life. The work of the Gospel is to cause those who rest in the merits of Christ to grow from grace to grace and from light to a greater light, and therefore from strength to strength and from victory to victory. Now this is the true Gospel. And when His character shall be perfectly reproduced in His people, He will come again. Mark 4:26-28. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 If Christ had entered the Most Holy Place at His ascension to begin the work of atonement He would have contradicted His own teaching in regard to the typical services of the earthly sanctuary. sky Sky, you guys are impossible. The gospel is the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ as the Son of God and the Son of Man. No thread of human devising. In other words the gospel is God's perfect work of redemption "in Christ Jesus". Adding to that is "another gospel" which the RCC teaches. Surely, as a SDA, you aren't in line with RCC? Sonny, have you ever thought what the real gospel would have been IF Paul's words and Hebrews were not found in the NT? Isn't that what Jack S. was writing about? Look, I know where you are with this as I have been there too at one time. BTW, you will find that Christ's gospel is about the Kingdom of Heaven and NOT the "birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ". Since Paul wrote that even an angel from God (heaven) bringing a different gospel than what HE taught was to be cursed, then when Jesus sent His angel to John to give him the information found in Revelation (no saving grace by faith), then would it be your opinion that Jesus' angel should have been cursed? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 By His complete sacrifice Christ made it possible for the work of redemption to take place in believing Adam down to the last believing soul before He returns in glory. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 15, 2011 Author Share Posted June 15, 2011 Sonny, have you ever thought what the real gospel would have been IF Paul's words and Hebrews were not found in the NT? Are you not the guy who rejects the Apostle Paul? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 Sonny wrote: "You apparently do not understand the gospel. Hence this is why you guys get off the subject." Which gospel are you referring to? The one Jesus taught or the one Paul taught? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 15, 2011 Share Posted June 15, 2011 The work is not yet finished for it is written that in these last days God will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness and it is also written that He will finish the work in a manner very much out of the common order of things and in a way that will be contrary to any human planning. "For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness; because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth." Rom.9:28. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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