Sonny Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 [These words deleted by the moderator.] I sent you an e-mail requesting that you stop this nonsense. Now you are writing in code so that it's vague. Please stop it, now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 15, 2011 Author Share Posted July 15, 2011 That means that He was "not" the same as us at birth... :-) Here's the way we come into this world: Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Note that the thoughts of the mind are in harmony with the sinful nature. What the nature desires the mind loves too. They are in harmony. Christ, as the son of mankind, was made spiritually alive by the Holy Spirit at the moment of conception. Therefore Christ's mind was never in harmony with the sin nature indwelling in His assumed humanity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 Eph 2:3 All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Our humanity is born without the Spirit of God dwelling in it. Therefore both the mind & nature are in complete harmony. Christ, on the other hand, was born of the Spirit. This simply means that Christ's mind was under the control of God's Spirit from birth. Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin.... You see in Christ "the law of the Spirit" defeated the law of sin. Romans 8:2 is clear! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 16, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 16, 2011 From the moderator to all-- Hey, guys-- I deleted some posts in order for you all to forget all the personal arguing and fussing. Now I want you all to get back to the topic and have fun learning from each other and discovering what you believe. It's a good subject and it's too bad to ruin it with things that get you off topic and into personalities. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 Romans 8:2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin.... Let's look at some other translations: "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." [ESV] "For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and death." [LEB] Question: Are you...am I...free from "the law of sin" - what Paul refers to as "sin dwelling in me"? No, not as individuals. You see if anyone teaches that they are free from indwelling sin they are teaching the heresy of "holy flesh". What is holy flesh? The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). Okay, what's my point? Well, let's read Romans 8:2 again: "For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death." If you, the individual, haven't been set free from indwelling sin then what is Paul writing about? Notice what Paul actually states: "The law of the Spirit" (the power of the Holy Spirit), where? "In Christ" has set my humanity free from the law of sin. If you or I are not free from indwelling sin then who was? Answer: Christ, as the Son of Man. You see the humanity that Christ assumed as God is our humanity indwelt by sin. IF that humanity was set free from indwelling sin then that humanity had to have sin in it prior to the cross. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 There are two types of servants. Type one is the kind that is a servant but gets paid for it; a butler or maid would be this type-so would paid denominational worker like a pastor. Type two is the kind of servant that is unpaid, this type is a slave. Now, there are two types of slaves, the kind that did not choose to be a slave but was forced unwillingly into durance vile, and the kind of slave that willingly works for their Master because the Master had done something for them that they could not do themselves. In the case of a 'Bondservant'/slave, such as see in Matt: 24:42-51 and Rev. 1:1-3, these bondservants have willingly placed themselves into unpaid servitude to their Master, Jesus Christ, because He did something for them that they could not do for themselves and still live-they recognize that He died to pay their penalty of death for the disobedience of the Kingdom of Heaven of which they are a member. They are not in it for any pay or reward, they do it out of love for their Master and what He and only He could do for them. They are obedient even unto death to the will of their Master. These people have 'bonded' themselves to Jesus FOREVER, or until HE makes the decision to free them from their service. There service is defined in Scripture: Then the dragon became furious with the woman and went off to make war on the rest of her offspring, on those who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus. Rev. 12:17. If you have been 'set free' because of some words that you read in a passage of Scripture then you have been 'set free' based on your own belief; however, you cannot be a bondservant of Jesus Christ, because not one bondservant has yet been freed from the obligation that they have willingly taken. I am a bondservant of Jesus Christ; thank God I have not been 'set free'. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 16, 2011 Share Posted July 16, 2011 Sonny, can you please tell me what it is that you have been set free from? Didn't Jesus say that the truth sets one free from the penalty of sin? Does being set free mean you are free to do what ever you chose to do, that is to ignore the covenant? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 16, 2011 Author Share Posted July 16, 2011 Sonny, can you please tell me what it is that you have been set free from? I will not be liberated from indwelling sin until the 2nd coming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich Sonny, can you please tell me what it is that you have been set free from? I will not be liberated from indwelling sin until the 2nd coming. Sorry to hear that, because by then it will be too late. Jesus does not come until after the plagues come upon those who have not become righteous and sinless before the start of the 38th month of the last 42 months of this earth's history. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Sorry to hear that, because by then it will be too late. Do you have holy flesh, Rich? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 17, 2011 ....If you have been 'set free' because of some words that you read in a passage of Scripture then you have been 'set free' based on your own belief; however, you cannot be a bondservant of Jesus Christ, because not one bondservant has yet been freed from the obligation that they have willingly taken. I am a bondservant of Jesus Christ; thank God I have not been 'set free'. I think you are talking about two different kinds of freedom. Jesus has set me free from bondage to sin and has made it so that I am free to do His will and His commandments. I am free to become the person that God intended me to be. It definitely doesn't mean that He frees me to practice evil. In other words, Christ doesn't free me so that I am able to follow the dictates of my sinful nature. He frees me, rather, to follow my spiritual nature, the new nature that Christ gives me through the gift of the Holy Spirit. He gives me new desires and new thoughts, a new heart. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 ....If you have been 'set free' because of some words that you read in a passage of Scripture then you have been 'set free' based on your own belief; however, you cannot be a bondservant of Jesus Christ, because not one bondservant has yet been freed from the obligation that they have willingly taken. I am a bondservant of Jesus Christ; thank God I have not been 'set free'. I think you are talking about two different kinds of freedom. Jesus has set me free from bondage to sin and has made it so that I am free to do His will and His commandments. I am free to become the person that God intended me to be. It definitely doesn't mean that He frees me to practice evil. In other words, Christ doesn't free me so that I am able to follow the dictates of my sinful nature. He frees me, rather, to follow my spiritual nature, the new nature that Christ gives me through the gift of the Holy Spirit. He gives me new desires and new thoughts, a new heart. John, There are unfortunately a lot of people that disagree with you on this. They believe that they indeed HAVE been set free from sin such that it doesn't matter what they do. From my standpoint in saying what you said here you are more than half way to the truth of how sin is dealt with in our lives, and that is a LOT farther along than most on this forum. I hope that someday you will see your way clear to include the Covenant of the Kingdom in your understanding of how salvation works; that keeping the Covenant IS not only necessary for entry into the Kingdom but fully possible through the ministry of the words of Jesus and the Holy Spirit that teaches us what those words mean. Good on you, my friend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 You see if anyone teaches that they are free from indwelling sin they are teaching the heresy of "holy flesh". What is holy flesh? The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). What if Paul teaches you an be free from the lusts and desires of the flesh because they have been crucified Sonny? Is he then teaching "Holy Flesh"? Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. You see, those that teach that Christ had sin dwelling in Him from birth, in His humanity, can never really be an "overcomer". Why? Because you just have to "put up with the flesh". So you become comfortable with it, you accept it, but never have it crucified. It is never "defeated", but rather always an "unwelcome guest". This is error. The lusts and desires of the flesh can be "crucified/mortified/put to death". They can be removed and replaced with Gods Law. This is true sanctification. And this is why so many SDA's preach sanctification, but never experience it. Rather than have the enemy put to death by faith, they "move in with it". This is the core fundamental objection I have against the teaching you are supporting here Sonny. The use of the "Holy Flesh" quote, does not do anything but blind one to the bible when used incorrectly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 What if Paul teaches you an be free from the lusts and desires of the flesh because they have been crucified Sonny? Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. As always, you need to look at the context: Gal 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. So the sinful nature is still in the believer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 17, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 17, 2011 Jesus has set me free from bondage to sin and has made it so that I am free to do His will and His commandments. I am free to become the person that God intended me to be. It definitely doesn't mean that He frees me to practice evil. In other words, Christ doesn't free me so that I am able to follow the dictates of my sinful nature. He frees me, rather, to follow my spiritual nature, the new nature that Christ gives me through the gift of the Holy Spirit. He gives me new desires and new thoughts, a new heart. Originally Posted By: Musicman1228 There are unfortunately a lot of people that disagree with you on this. They believe that they indeed HAVE been set free from sin such that it doesn't matter what they do. That may be but they are wrong and the Bible doesn't support what they say. There are lots of people who teach wrong, but you can't blame God or Christ or Paul for the wrong that some people teach. I know of quite a few scholars who get the wrong idea of what Christ taught. Is that Christ's fault? No. And neither is it Paul's fault if some people get wrong ideas from reading Paul. The fact is that Paul could not have been clearer that he never taught people they are at liberty to sin deliberately and willfully because of God's grace. See Romans 6: 1,2, 15. Paul's theology agrees completely with First John 1: 5 to 2: 6. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II What if Paul teaches you an be free from the lusts and desires of the flesh because they have been crucified Sonny? Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. As always, you need to look at the context: Gal 5:16 So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. 17 For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. So the sinful nature is still in the believer. Keep on reading Sonny... They that are Christs have "crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts". That means their "lusts and desires" have been put to death "In Christ". A Christian has to face up to the fact that he has lusts and desires in themselves. But then they will also go on to learn how to put those lusts and desires to death by faith in Christ. As we fix our eyes on Christ and remain fixed on Him, we can receive this promise that those lusts and desires have been put to death. But only as we abide in Christ. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Keep on reading Sonny... They that are Christs have "crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts". If your flesh was crucified you would be dead. Dead people can't sin. Are you without sin? Keep in mind 1 John 1:8. Are you without indwelling sin? Keep in mind Romans chapter 7. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 17, 2011 Author Share Posted July 17, 2011 Here's Paul writing to believers: Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom [from under law, see verse 1] to indulge your sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." So Paul, in writing to the Galatians, instructed them not to indulge their sinful natures. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Here's Paul writing to believers: Gal 5:13 You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom [from under law, see verse 1] to indulge your sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. 14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself." So Paul, in writing to the Galatians, instructed them not to indulge their sinful natures. It would be helpful if you quoted the version you are using Sonny. Using different versions to colour "a point" has to be guarded against... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 17, 2011 Share Posted July 17, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II Keep on reading Sonny... They that are Christs have "crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts". If your flesh was crucified you would be dead. Dead people can't sin. Are you without sin? Keep in mind 1 John 1:8. Are you without indwelling sin? Keep in mind Romans chapter 7. They that are Christs have crucifed the flesh with the affections and lusts. Do you agree with this^^ Sonny? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 They that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts. Do you agree with this^^ Sonny? Not your interpretation. You are trying to spin this to say that the believer's nature is dead. The believer's nature is alive and well. As the believer walks in the Spirit then the Spirit of God can override that nature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 18, 2011 Author Share Posted July 18, 2011 It would be helpful if you quoted the version you are using Sonny. NIV: You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love. NLT: For you have been called to live in freedom -- not freedom to satisfy your sinful nature, but freedom to serve one another in love. NKJV: For you, brethren, have been called to liberty; only do not use liberty as an opportunity for the flesh [sarx - human nature], but through love serve one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 18, 2011 They that are Christs have "crucified the flesh with its affections and lusts". That means their "lusts and desires" have been put to death "In Christ". A Christian has to face up to the fact that he has lusts and desires in themselves. But then they will also go on to learn how to put those lusts and desires to death by faith in Christ. As we fix our eyes on Christ and remain fixed on Him, we can receive this promise that those lusts and desires have been put to death. But only as we abide in Christ. I agree completely with you. But how is that contradicted or out of harmony with the teaching that Christ assumed our sinful human nature? In fact, I see Christ's having the same sinful flesh that we have as necessary for us to overcome like He did. He is our model in resisting and overcoming sin. He did it by His Father's power and so can we. This is clearly what Ellen White taught. I believe her teachings on this are in line with the Bible. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 18, 2011 What is the effect of translating as the ESV has it, as opposed to the way the NKJV has it? It can be legitimately translated both ways. I prefer this translation, Letters From Paul, Boyce W. Blackwelder: Quote: For the principle* of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has liberated you from the principle* of sin and death. *Or, force of action Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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