Moderators John317 Posted July 19, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 19, 2011 Paul states that as the Son of Man Jesus "Was made sin". Does this mean that Christ as the Son of Man sinned (as in transgression of the law)? No way! Then what does it mean? It means that when Christ assumed us that this humanity stood under condemnation, but not for sinning. That's why Gal 4:4 states that when Christ was made flesh that He was born under the law. Good points. Christ the sinless One was made sin. Amazing. He did that for us. We don't deserve it and it's astonishing that He would do it, but that's what Agape does. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 You actually have no idea what God is doing at conception. And you do? Can you remember being in your mother's womb? Even more...can you remember life at conception before your brain was developed? I can't.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 [Word deleted by the moderator.] Miz3...let's just not go there. I've learned from the past that John is the police force here. He will delete posts that get too personal. We need John and other moderators here because of our human natures. The same reason we need the police. Otherwise you have lawlessness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 musicman1228' date='Here is the text Sonny was trying to quote:"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Psalm 51:5. That means at the moment of conception (when the egg and sperm first met) we were at that moment sinful and guilty of sin! /quote'] Who wrote the song book of Psalms? Were they the words of God? Or were they songs from David and from others? Huh? The one who wrote this for a song, was one who understood that he would not have been alive on this earth right now because of the sin of Adam, but for the sake that Jesus stepped in and took Adam's place and paid the price for the penalty for Adam. What it does NOT mean is that the egg and sperm had made a choice on wether or not to obey God. Far from it! Again, it simply meant that one born of the bloodline of Adam was under the same penalty of Adam's sin. Period! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Paul states that as the Son of Man Jesus "Was made sin". Does this mean that Christ as the Son of Man sinned (as in transgression of the law)? No way! Then what does it mean? It means that when Christ assumed us that this humanity stood under condemnation, but not for sinning. That's why Gal 4:4 states that when Christ was made flesh that He was born under the law. Good points. Christ the sinless One was made sin. Amazing. He did that for us. We don't deserve it and it's astonishing that He would do it, but that's what Agape does. But that was not the whole truth. What Jesus did was pay the penalty for OUR own sins ONLY if we obey the Commandments and the words of Jesus. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Are you saying the power of God in us, by the Holy Spirit, is unable to help us keep the commandments of God? If you are right that people cannot keep the commandments of God, why does the Bible teach that we are able to keep the commandments of God? Do you mean that I MUST disobey God's commandments? Do I have no choice in the matter whether to obey or disobey God? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 You actually have no idea what God is doing at conception. Admit it Sonny! You do not know, and I don't know. What we do know is what the Bible says. It says we were "conceived in sin". That means we are sinners plain and simple! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted July 19, 2011 Moderators Share Posted July 19, 2011 ...Again, I am disappointed that you would take my full statement out of context by quoting only a small portion of what I wrote and then trying to put that "out of context statement" in a bad light when my full statement would have easily made sense if you had printed it fully in your response! You tried this trick earlier today on another thread concerning Dr. JH Kellogg! That is twice now you have taken my words out of context. I don't know whether you are doing this on purpose or it is just a mistake. However, twice in one day leads one to have bad thoughts one should never have about another poster, ESPECIALLY IF THAT POSTER IS THE MODERATOR! As moderator: These kinds of remarks are not allowed on the Forum. They are against the rules because they assume that you and others can read people's motives, which none of us can. You even admit that you don't know whether it is a mistake or on purpose. You also said on another post that it is not up to you to judge other people's motives. I agree. So stop doing it. If this was posted to anyone else, it would have been deleted. I will leave it up in order for people to see what NOT to do to any of the members of the Forum. I rarely have people banned from the theology threads, but if you keep this up, you will one of the few. You do it a lot to many people, and it has to stop. Please notice the post just above this one, where you did the same thing. Words had to be deleted. If you want to reply to this, please do it by sending me a PM. I will be glad to explain why the Forum has to have this rule. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II That is not what it says Sonny... It says the sinner has "crucified" the lusts and desires "in Christ". If my nature is crucified that means it is dead, right? That's the same as not having a sinful nature, right? What does the scripture say Sonny, it is very specific. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 musicman1228, Here is the text Sonny was trying to quote: "Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." Psalm 51:5. That means at the moment of conception (when the egg and sperm first met) we were at that moment sinful and guilty of sin! Indeed we are "born sinful", we have sin in our "flesh". We inherit sinful propensities from our parents. Christ did not inherit that sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 What does the scripture say Sonny, it is very specific. I would like to know your interpretation. Again, are you saying that the believer doesn't have a sinful nature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 All fallen humans have sinful lusts because we have practiced sin. Originally Posted By: miz3 NO! WE HAVE SINFUL LUSTS BECAUSE WE ARE BORN SINFUL! Originally Posted By: Twilight I agree with you here miz3. It sounds like you are saying that everything we do is sinful and that we can't ever really keep the commandments of God, because of the sinful nature we are born with. If we have sinful lusts and if we sin simply because we are born sinful, doesn't that mean we can't stop sinning or stop having sinful lusts? How can we change the fact that we are born sinful? How can God hold us accountable for a condition we didn't choose or punish us for something we were born with and can't help? Because He has provided a solution for each of us. We are held accountable because we do not take hold of that solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: John317 Romans 6: 6 says that "our old man was crucified with Christ, that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should not longer be slaves of sin." But then notice that Romans 6: 11 says that we are to "reckon" or "consider" ourselves to be "dead indeed to sin." v. 12, "Do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts." Could you explain what you understand these verses to be saying? Originally Posted By: TwilightII The term "reckon" means to "account", it is an accounting term. So Paul is saying, "add these truths together". It is simple arithmetic that is being discussed. We use the term "reckon" in its modern usage and not how it was intended in the original KJV translators minds. To "reckon" is to "account". It does not mean to think it is true, even though it isn't... I agree that it can have the meaning of "to count" and to "calculate." But is that the meaning in Romans 6: 11? It does not necessarily carry this meaning but it is also translated as "to regard," "to deem," "to consider," "to think," and "to reason." The Greek word does indeed sometimes mean viewing something as true that is not actually true. For instance, see its use in 2 Cor. 10: 2; Romans 2: 3; 2 Cor. 10: 7; 1 Cor. 13: 11, etc. Look at these uses of the word logizomai: Acts 19:27 So that not only this our craft is in danger to be set at nought [discredited NIV]; but also that the temple of the great goddess Diana should be despised, and her magnificence should be destroyed, whom all Asia and the world worshippeth. Romans 14:14 I know, and am persuaded by the Lord Jesus, that [there is] nothing unclean of itself: but to him that esteemeth any thing to be unclean, to him [it is] unclean. 1 Cor. 4:1 Let a man so account of us, as of the ministers of Christ, and stewards of the mysteries of God. 2 Cor 10:2 But I beseech [you], that I may not be bold when I am present with that confidence, wherewith I think to be bold against some, which think of us as if we walked according to the flesh. Ph. 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but [this] one thing [i do], forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, Ro. 2:3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God? Ro. 3:28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. Ro. 8:18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time [are] not worthy [to be compared] with the glory which shall be revealed in us. 2 Cor 10:7 Do ye look on things after the outward appearance? If any man trust to himself that he is Christ's, let him of himself think this again, that, as he [is] Christ's, even so [are] we Christ's. 2 Cor. 10:11 Let such an one think this, that, such as we are in word by letters when we are absent, such [will we be] also in deed when we are present. Phil. 4:8 Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things [are] honest, whatsoever things [are] just, whatsoever things [are] pure, whatsoever things [are] lovely, whatsoever things [are] of good report; if [there be] any virtue, and if [there be] any praise, think on these things. 1 Cor. 13:11 When I was a child, I spake as a child, I understood as a child, I thought as a child: but when I became a man, I put away childish things. The context supplies the usage here John317. What is Romans 6:11 "reckoned" or "accounted" on? Romans 6:6. Now Romans 6:6 is a statement of fact. We were crucified with Christ. Now we are to "reckon" on that "fact". We are to "account" based on that fact. The context supplies the meaning. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: Sonny Paul states that as the Son of Man Jesus "Was made sin". Does this mean that Christ as the Son of Man sinned (as in transgression of the law)? No way! Then what does it mean? It means that when Christ assumed us that this humanity stood under condemnation, but not for sinning. That's why Gal 4:4 states that when Christ was made flesh that He was born under the law. Good points. Christ the sinless One was made sin. Amazing. He did that for us. We don't deserve it and it's astonishing that He would do it, but that's what Agape does. Yes, but when was He made sin? At the incarnation as Sonny argues, or the cross? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II What does the scripture say Sonny, it is very specific. I would like to know your interpretation. Again, are you saying that the believer doesn't have a sinful nature? You are not asking for my interpretation Sonny, you are asking me a specific question to gain a specific point of discussion that I have never claimed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Miz3, I suggest you heed the instruction from John317 as the Moderator. When we start taking the comments that are posted personally and respond in a personal manner that is when you get yourself into trouble. It was a lesson I had to learn the hard way; a couple of years ago John banned me from the thread because I took the comments from some of the people way too personally-and HE WAS RIGHT TO DO SO. I learn a valuable lesson because of it, and it has not happened again to me. There is nothing personal in this and you should not make it so. We are taking theology and doctrine over which there will be disagreement. We get ourselves into trouble when we think that everyone MUST agree with us or they will be lost forever. We become overly passionate about the reaction others have to our ideas, especially if they disagree with us. John actually does a pretty good job of moderating, and lets us do our thing most of the time; so when he makes a comment about forum decorum it needs to carry some weight. My advice is to just lighten up a little, and don't try to do the job that is reserved for the Holy Spirit in moving people toward the truth. It does not happen all at once, and can sometimes take a very long time, if ever. I know you have a sense of urgency because the time is short and you feel compelled to get people to believe your version of the truth because you think they will be lost forever if they don't. Just remember; It's NOT YOUR JOB to make people see the truth, it is God's job-so let Him do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 You are not asking for my interpretation Sonny, you are asking me a specific question to gain a specific point of discussion that I have never claimed... So, believers do have sinful natures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. First of all we can't crucify the flesh. It can't be done. We can't produce righteousness - only God can. So then, what is Paul referring to in verse 24? The same thing as in Romans chapter 6. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted July 19, 2011 Share Posted July 19, 2011 Sonny, We know that gospel comes from the authority of Jack S. Jack S. is not inspired! Jack S. is wrong! I will not be a disciple of Jack S. I WILL BE A DISCIPLE OF JESUS CHRIST! AS SUCH I PREACH THE GOSPEL OF JESUS CHRIST! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 Sonny,.... I will not be a disciple of Jack S. Good, me either..... Now, having said that, let's get back to subject at hand and not all these side issues. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 19, 2011 Author Share Posted July 19, 2011 5:24 Now those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. First of all we can't crucify the flesh. It can't be done. We can't produce righteousness - only God can. So then, what is Paul referring to in verse 24? The same thing as in Romans chapter 6. Romans 6:6 ...our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin ; 7 for he who has died is freed from sin. Our humanity from Adam died in the body of Christ. Since Adam's humanity is ours and since our humanity died "in Christ" that humanity can't sin. Why? Dead men can't sin. 10 For the death that He died [as the Son of Man], He died to sin once for all ; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Even so consider (reckon) yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus. Just as our humanity died "in Christ" 2000 years ago we, as believers, should surrender our mind to the truth as it is "in Christ". What does this mean? It means that just as our humanity from Adam died in Christ we should present our bodies a living sacrifice to God. In other words we should consider our natures crucified. When we do this Christ can be seen. Hence: Gal 2:20 "I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me. Notice we still live "in the flesh". We still have sinful natures, but if we live by faith and reckon ourselves dead as we died in Christ 2000 years ago then Christ can render our natures inoperative. In other words Christ can defeat the sinful nature just as He did 2000 years ago in our fallen humanity. See Romans 8:2,3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 20, 2011 Author Share Posted July 20, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II You are not asking for my interpretation Sonny, you are asking me a specific question to gain a specific point of discussion that I have never claimed... So, believers do have sinful natures? Yes? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 21, 2011 Author Share Posted July 21, 2011 Christ our substitute Key Points in Chapter 4 • Christ Our Substitute • Justification by faith raises an ethical issue: How can God justify believing sinners and at the same time maintain His integrity to the divine law that justly condemns them to eternal death? [see Romans 4:5; Galatians 3:10.] During the Reformation, the Reformers answered this question with the doctrine of substitution in which Christ’s righteousness substitutes for the believer’s lack of righteousness. Catholic scholars argued that substitution was unethical. It made God testify to a lie: declaring a sinner justified who is still a sinner. They insisted that before God could declare a person justified, He had to make the person righteous through an infused grace. The Catholic scholars were ethically right: God does need to make sinners righteous before He can legally declare them to be righteous. They were wrong in their solution to the problem, however. The Reformers were right in their solution to the problem: the Bible clearly teaches that sinners are justified on the basis of the life and death of Jesus substituting for their own sinful life [see Romans 10:4; Acts 13:39]. The Reformers were ethically wrong, however, in defining substitution as Jesus’ life and death being accepted instead of our life and death. Biblically, the doctrine of substitution is based on the concept of corporate oneness. God can legally justify sinners because all humanity corporately obeyed the law in one Man, Jesus Christ. Only when we identify the humanity of Jesus with the corporate fallen humanity He came to redeem can we teach an ethical gospel that is unconditional good news. The main reason Christ became a man was to redeem men and women from sin, not primarily to prove that they could keep God’s law or to be their Example [see Matthew 1:21; Galatians 4:4-5; Hebrews 2:14-17]. Christ, in His humanity, saved men and women in actuality, not vicariously. Christ’s life and death actually changed humanity’s past; Christ’s life and death became our life and death. In Him we lived a perfect life; in Him we died the penalty for sin [see 2 Corinthians 5:14]. The Bible clearly teaches that Christ took the same nature as that of the human race He came to redeem [see Hebrews 2:14-17]. But it stops short of saying that in His humanity Christ was just as we are in our fallen humanity. The Bible says He “was made flesh” [ John 1:14]. He became something He was not. He took sinful nature upon Himself in order to redeem it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted July 21, 2011 Share Posted July 21, 2011 In other words: "In Christ dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. This is why, although He was tempted in all points like as we are, He stood before the world, from His first entrance into it, untainted by corruption, though surrounded by it. Are we not also to become partakers of that fullness, and it it not thus, and thus only, that we can overcmoe as He overcame?" E.G. White, 7 B.C.907. "The Saviour was deeply anxious for His disciples to understand for what purpose His divinity was united to humanity." D.A.664. "To reveal this ideal as the only standard for attainment; to show what every human being might become; what, through the indwelling of humanity by divinity, all who received Him would become--for this, Christ came to the world." Education,73,74. "Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts." C.O.L.314. Of course not one in one hundred even among seventh-day adventists will agree with these statements, right? sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted July 23, 2011 Author Share Posted July 23, 2011 "Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts." C.O.L.314. Yes, this is true, but then no human is living Christ's life. So if this is why Christ came we've had it.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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