cheddar Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: Windsor For the same reason that every human ... was born condemned to death because of the sins of our first parents. That's the doctrine of original sin. We are not guilty of our parents sin unless we do the same. Quote: It seems fair to me that every sinner can therefore be justified based on the perfect life of the Second Adam. Well, it's not fair....In fact no court will allow the innocent to die in place of the guilty. Sonny, what Windsor said is correct. Every human being is born with a sinful nature and I'm pretty sure that none ever ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 1Cor. 15 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I don't know man,,, 16 pages or so and I still can't figure out what Sonny is talking about. I'm pretty sure the gospel message aint that complicated! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Rich Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I don't know man,,, 16 pages or so and I still can't figure out what Sonny is talking about. I'm pretty sure the gospel message aint that complicated! Club, that's because Sonny boy is stuck upon the gospel Paul presents. Some day soon he will find out that the words of Jesus were not given to us to make fun of. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Every human being is born with a sinful nature and .... So we stand condemned or guilty for having a sinful nature? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 I don't know man,,, 16 pages or so and I still can't figure out what Sonny is talking about. I'm pretty sure the gospel message aint that complicated! Then you should know it, right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Sonny boy is stuck upon the gospel Paul presents. Rom 1:1 From Paul, a servant of Christ Jesus and an apostle chosen and called by God to preach his Good News [the gospel]. 2 The Good News was promised long ago by God through his prophets, as written in the Holy Scriptures. 3 It is about his Son, our Lord Jesus Christ: as to his humanity, he was born a descendant of David; 4 as to his divine holiness, he was shown with great power to be the Son of God by being raised from death Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Originally Posted By: cheddar Every human being is born with a sinful nature and .... So we stand condemned or guilty for having a sinful nature? This is the main argument of those who say if Christ HAD a sinful nature He would have been a sinner under the curse of the law. First of all Christ is God. He never stopped being God and when, at the incarnation, the Son of God united Himself to our fallen life from Adam He continued to be God. So to say that the Son of God HAD a fallen nature if false. However, as the Son of Man, that life HAD a fallen nature. Now, doesn't that make the Son of Man a sinner? Yes, and no. The Bible clearly states that Christ, as the Son of Man, "became sin" who as the Son of God knew no sin. Let's look at this: "God the Father made him sin for us, which knew no sin (as the Son of God), that we should be made the righteousness God in him." (Wycliffe New Testament) 2 Cor 5:21 Is God lying? No! Then He made Christ, who has God knew no sin, to be sin. Does this imply that Christ was a sinner? Did He fornicate, steal, murder, etc.? No! Absolutely not. In fact there was no self-interest in the life of Christ. He lived not for Himself - He lived to serve. So how was Christ, as the Son of Man (literally as the son of mankind - one of us) "made sin"? Gal 4:4 God sent his Son, made of a woman... Now turn to Ps 51:5 "Surely I (David) was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother (hence, born of a woman) conceived me." How could David be sinful at conception before he could sin? Answer: David received from Adam a life contaminated by the love of self - our bent-to-self - what the Bible calls iniquity. Hence David belonged to a condemned race. Please keep in mind David couldn't sin at conception...so the Bible is not talking about transgression of the law. So having a sinful nature doesn't make you a transgressor, rather it condemns you. Eventually David's mind developed and since David was born without God's spirit his nature and mind were in agreement. This was never true of Christ as the Son of Man. True, because He assumed our life he stood cursed under law. That's what Gal 4:4 is about: God sent his Son, made of a woman, made under the law To be under law means to be under the curse. But again, keep in mind that the law does two things: 1] It condemns you for having a sinful nature and 2] It finds you guilty because your mind and sinful nature are in harmony and therefore naturally you sin outwardly. Christ as the Son of Man was condemned because He took our humanity indwelt with sin, but in that humanity He never sinned. He defeated it and on the cross our old life (which He assumed) died forever. On the resurrection Christ was raised with a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. Now He is in heaven representing us in Himself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 1] It condemns you for having a sinful nature Where does it state we stand condemned for having a sinful nature alone (i.e., not including transgressing the law)? Ps 51:5 Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Eph 2:3 among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say , brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.... 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. Matt 5:48 Be perfect, therefore, just as your heavenly Father is perfect. Does God the Father have a sinful nature? No! Well, the spirit of the law requires us to be sinless just as our heaven Father is sinless. Now, EGW: The teaching given in regard to what is termed "holy flesh" is an error. All may now obtain holy hearts (minds), but it is not correct to claim in this life to have holy flesh [a glorified, immortal, sinless humanity]. The apostle Paul declares, "I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing" (Rom. 7:18). When human beings receive holy flesh, they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body"(Phil. 3:21). . . .[2SM 32, 33] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 "I don't know man,,, 16 pages or so and I still can't figure out what Sonny is talking about. I'm pretty sure the gospel message aint that complicated! " Then you should know it, right? This thread feels like no matter how I express my views on the subject, I'd be wrong. Looks to me like several others have expressed views that I agree with, but they've been declared wrong as well. Perhaps, only you, Sonny, have a handle on this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Perhaps, only you, Sonny, have a handle on this? Perhaps ,as an SDA, if you hadn't spend the majority of your time gazing at the law of God you would have by now understood the gospel? After all it the basis of your salvation. Perhaps this is why SDA are preoccupied with God's law. They have no assurance so they seek it by the works of the law. Problem is no one is keeping God's law as Christ kept it. So you better rely on what God did in Christ for you assurance. How? Get to know the gospel! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 I have an assurance of righteousness by faith, which, like Paul, I strive for daily. Which is the gospel. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 I have an assurance of righteousness by faith, which, like Paul, I strive for daily. Which is the gospel. No, the gospel is not righteousness by faith. It's close, but righteousness by faith is the gospel received by faith. The gospel, which has been the subject, is what God did in Christ Jesus. This issue came up in 1888. Apparently it was rejected then too.... Here's A.T. Jones on this very issue: Made under the law Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 Righteousness by faith not the Gospel!!!???? "Righteousness is love and love is the light and the life of God," and "the life of God in the soul is man's only hope." M.B.18; M.H.115. Christ cannot be separated from His righteousness. If we have one we have the other. To have Christ and His righteousness is to have the Gospel within. It is to have Heaven in our hearts. "The only way to attain to righteousness is through faith. By faith the sinner can bring to God the merits of Christ." F.W.101. It is that simple. As the sinner comes to God just as he is, sinful, helpless, dependent, bringing the merits of the Saviour to the Father, He is accepted and Christ is formed within the hope of glory. And he must continue in the faith, daily applying to the merits of the Saviour. See F.W.86. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted June 18, 2011 Share Posted June 18, 2011 The Plan of Salvation or The Gospel Made Simple: 1. God declared all humans were guilty of Adam's sin. By Fiat! 2. As guilty ones they would receive God's Wrath which is eternal death. By Fiat! 3. God placed Adam's sin and also our guilt on Jesus Christ on the Cross. By Fiat! 4. God vented His Wrath on Jesus Christ. By Fiat! 5. All humans (Romans chapter 5) were not only declared but were actually made Just (Justification) by God because His Wrath for Adam's sin and ours was taken care of by Jesus Christ. By Fiat! 6. God takes ownership of all humans and sends the Holy Spirit to clean up all their sinful nature and internal darkness. By Fiat! (you are not your own you have been bought with a price text). By Fiat! 7. Either the Holy Spirit works and the person continues to be rehabbed or the human REJECTS not only God's Justification but REJECTS the Sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. (sin against the Holy Spirit). God either continues to rule by Fiat or by Fiat leaves the person to rot in hell. (very little of the human if any and a whole lot of God!) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Righteousness by faith not the Gospel!!!???? Sky...I know you are smart person, but you need to take a step back. Christ saved you in Himself 2000 years ago. As an individual you weren't around, but your matter...your substance existed all the way back to Adam. Christ assumed this and by His doing & dying He legally reversed your condemnation. That's the gospel. Many thousands of years later you arrived on the scene as an individual...as a child of Adam. You accept the gospel. That's righteousness by faith.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 The Plan of Salvation or The Gospel Made Simple: 1. God declared all humans were guilty of Adam's sin. By Fiat! 2. As guilty ones they would receive God's Wrath which is eternal death. By Fiat! 3. God placed Adam's sin and also our guilt on Jesus Christ on the Cross. By Fiat! 4. God vented His Wrath on Jesus Christ. By Fiat! 5. All humans (Romans chapter 5) were not only declared but were actually made Just (Justification) by God because His Wrath for Adam's sin and ours was taken care of by Jesus Christ. By Fiat! 6. God takes ownership of all humans and sends the Holy Spirit to clean up all their sinful nature and internal darkness. By Fiat! (you are not your own you have been bought with a price text). By Fiat! 7. Either the Holy Spirit works and the person continues to be rehabbed or the human REJECTS not only God's Justification but REJECTS the Sanctifying work of the Holy Spirit. (sin against the Holy Spirit). God either continues to rule by Fiat or by Fiat leaves the person to rot in hell. (very little of the human if any and a whole lot of God!) I noticed the total lack of Scripture! This speaks volumes. What you have presented is a false gospel....It doesn't answer the demands of God's law. It ignores the law. Hence, as far as the law is concerned, you are still alive. Since you are a sinner you must die. Why don't you accept your death in Christ instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 18, 2011 Gerry: No, no. The "more than that" IS part and parcel of the gospel!!! Sonny: Baloney! Gerry: You shouldn't eat that stuff! It's unclean. It's not good for you! Sonny: What God did in Christ is the gospel. Gerry: You haven't yet shown that only half of the gospel sandwich is THE gospel. So far it's all your say so. What God did in Christ, if detached from the sinner, is no more efficacious or good news than the death of anyone. Quote: What He does in you for accepting the gospel is called sanctification or the fruits of the gospel. Failing to realize this leads into "another gospel", which always leads into subtle legalism. The Galatians had this problem. And I say, the gospel includes both justification AND sanctification. You can't have one without the other. NO ONE is ever justified without being sanctified and vice versa. Jesus, the gospel personified, NEVER separated the two. If He did and I missed it, show me. Failure to recognize this inevitably leads to antinomianism. He unequivocally said: "Abide in Me, and I in you." Jn 15:4. "Whoever abides in Me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing." Jn 15:5 ESV. "If I do not wash you, you have no share in Me." Jn 13:8 ESV. When Jesus said, ESV | Jn 3:3,5 "Jesus answered him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God......Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God." ESV | Jn 3:16 “For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life." Look at the Jesus' story of the Prodigal son/Father Do you see Jesus splitting the Good News into its component parts? No. It comes as a package! Cling to Jn 3:16 and you have the essence of the gospel. So the Good News is not only that Jesus takes the penalty of disobedience away from the sinner and pays it Himself, He ALSO takes the power and allure of sin, the pleasure and presence of sin. What could be better news than this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 And I say, the gospel includes both justification AND sanctification. Gerry, just please stop and think. Place your preconceived ideas on hold for a few moments. If I'm wrong and you are right, so be it. But for now open you heart..... Focus on these words: The gospel is what God did in His Son, Jesus Christ. The law of God has been answered in the doing & dying of Christ. That happened 2000 + years ago. Let's look what God did "in Christ": 1 cor 1:30 Because of God you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God. In Christ we are put right with God, and have been made holy, and have been set free from sin. [NCV] God placed your life substance into Christ 2000 + years ago. He did this by uniting the humanity in Mary's womb (a humanity that all of us share) with the Divinity of Christ. In so doing Christ rewrote your human history. Hence in Him (not what He does in you) 1] you have already answered to the justice of God's law 2] You have already been made holy (sanctified) 3] And in Him you have already been freed from your sin nature. This equals justification, sanctification and glorification. All of this you already have "in Christ" Why? as it is written, "He who glories, let him glory in the Lord." You see you already have it all "in Christ". That's the basis of your salvation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 18, 2011 Sonny: You better know the gospel if you are going to witness to unbelievers...and even believers. Rev 14:6 And I saw another angel (not literally an angel) fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.... How do you preach the gospel if you don't know the gospel? Kind of silly - don't you think? Gerry: And if I preach the Good News from the whole chapter of Jn 3, I'm missing the boat? Gerry: Let me point out again that Paul did not only teach about being "in Christ", he also taught "Christ in you, the hope of glory." And our Lord Himself taught, "you in Me, and I in you." Sonny:Yes, but if you don't understand what it means to be "in Christ" then you'll get your works thing backwards. In other words you'll get into legalism. Gerry: And if you don't understand what it means to have "Christ in you," you'll fall into antinomianism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 And if you don't understand what it means to have "Christ in you," you'll fall into antinomianism. Believe me, as much as you talk the law you don't have to worry about that. However, you do need to worry that you don't understand the gospel. I thought you were going to explain it to me today? You know the Jews talked about the law a lot too....Where did it get them? Lost....They rejected the author of the law, Christ. How? Romans 9:30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness of faith; 31 but Israel, pursuing the law of righteousness, has not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Why? Because they did not seek it by faith, but as it were, by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumbling stone. 33 As it is written: "Behold, I lay in Zion a stumbling stone and rock of offense, And whoever believes on Him will not be put to shame." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 18, 2011 I just explained the gospel in post #454339. Do you think anyone will be lost for believing it? You don't think Jesus preached THE gospel? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted June 18, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 18, 2011 So, with the possible exception of Dr. Rich, who do you know in this forum who is pursuing righteousness through lawkeeping? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 I just explained the gospel in post #454339. Nope...you didn't answer what you said you would yesterday, that is, How can God justify sinners based on what Christ did and yet stay true to His own law that justly condemns them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 So, with the possible exception of Dr. Rich, who do you know in this forum who is pursuing righteousness through lawkeeping? My point is that folks who talk the law all the time instead of Christ have been sidetracked from the gospel. They have lost the assurance of salvation. This leads to "works of the law" (Paul's word for legalism) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sonny Posted June 18, 2011 Author Share Posted June 18, 2011 Unfortunately, because of the heavy emphasis on the law, spirituality waned and not a few became decidedly legalistic. Pride, self-assurance, and complacency entered our ranks. What was missing was a living experience with Christ—the joy and peace that comes from a relationship with Christ. The law and keeping the law became all-important. Ellen White, looking at the situation, wrote, “As a people we have preached the law until we are as dry as the hills of Gilboa that had neither dew nor rain. We must preach Christ in the law." Gerhard Pfandl Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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