Is the Church Babylon?

[Stan]

Quote:

To claim that the Seventh-day Adventist Church is Babylon, is to make the same claim as does Satan, who is an accuser of the brethren, who accuses them before God night and day. {TM 42.1}

What kind of person would do this?

[Stan]

ANSWER

Quote:

The Lord has not given you a message to call the Seventh-day Adventists Babylon, and to call the people of God to come out of her. All the reasons you may present cannot have weight with me on this subject, because the Lord has given me decided light that is opposed to such a message.

I do not doubt your sincerity or honesty. I have written long letters at different times to those who were accusing the church of Seventh-day Adventists of being Babylon, that they were not handling the truth. You think individuals have prejudiced my mind. If I am in this state, I am not fitted to be entrusted with the work of God. But this matter has been brought before my mind in other cases where individuals have claimed to have messages for the Seventh-day Adventist Church, of a similar character, and the word has been given me, "Believe them not." "I have not sent them, and yet they ran." {2SM 63 -64}

[Stan]

Quote:

God is leading out a people. He has a chosen people, a church on the earth, whom He has made the depositaries of His law. He has committed to them sacred trust and eternal truth to be given to the world. He would reprove and correct them. The message to the Laodiceans is applicable to Seventh-day Adventists who have had great light and have not walked in the light. It is those who have made great profession, but have not kept in step with their Leader, that will be spewed out of His mouth unless they repent. The message to pronounce the Seventh-Day Adventist Church Babylon, and call the people of God out of her, does not come from any heavenly messenger, or any human agent inspired by the Spirit of God. {2SM 66.2}

[Stan]

Quote:

Again I say, The Lord hath not spoken by any messenger who calls the church that keeps the commandments of God, Babylon.

True, there are tares with the wheat; but Christ said He would send His angels to first gather the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into the garner. I know that the Lord loves His church.

It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms.

There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be.

Those who shall heed this false message and try to leaven others will be deceived and prepared to receive advanced delusions, and they will come to nought. {2SM 68-69}

Reread as needed >>It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms.

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

Reread as needed >>It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms.

[Light Fox]

Hi Stan,

Now this has the potential to be an interesting and valuable discussion. Hopefully we can avoid the "talking past" eachother that seems to have happened so commonly elsewhere.

You've raised some very valid quotes there from Mrs. White regarding people in her day - 1893, I believe it was - who were claiming that the Seventh-day Adventist Church was Babylon. Incidentally, for those interested in that context you can read the following complete testimony from MR1: http://csdachurch.tripod.com/sda_1893.html She was speaking in response to a specific error in a specific time by specific people.

Mrs. White met that error, and rightly so. In 1893, the Seventh-day Adventist Church was not Babylon.

Now, if you can find me where she says it can never become Babylon, can never fall, and can never have the faithful gathered out of it even if it repeats the exact errors of those before her, I'll be very interested in that quote. As of yet, I have not seen it. This is what I have seen:

We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil? [Manuscript Releases Volume Twenty-one, page 380, paragraph 1 and quoted in Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultery, and Divorce, page 188, paragraph 3]

[Pastor_Chick]

I also wish to add that Ellen White did not perceive "Babylon" to be a "fallen state." She called it "confusion."

August 3, 1861, I was shown that some have feared that our churches would become Babylon if they should organize; but those in central New York have been perfect Babylon, confusion. (1T 270)

The whole reason for advocating "organization" was to reduce and/or eliminate "confusion."

[Israfel]

What kind of person would do this?

Good question Stan.

Do you really want to prove that someone else has ruled over Mrs. White's saying in regard to the church not being Babylon? Or are you saying that because you are so sure of what you believe that no matter what someone else advances to you, you will fail them, because you already have the antidote?

If that is your conception, nothing anyone can advance to you will matter, even if one was to raise from the dead, or an angel came from heaven.

On the contrary if you cherish the Word of God in your heart that you might not sin against Him, then His Spirit will lead you into all truth. I so hope this latter is your desire.

I do ask questions too, and sometimes, it is because I think of having the answer, but I must be open to change my thinking and acquire more knowledge if I am not quite right. Do you see what I am trying to say?

[Pastor_Chick]

I thought of another application that Ellen White uses for the term "Babylon." In this case, she is referring to the "Babylon fallen" condition. This is not merely "confusion."

Thus the message of the third angel will be proclaimed. As the time comes for it to be given with greatest power, the Lord will work through humble instruments, leading the minds of those who consecrate themselves to His service. The laborers ["eleventh-hour"] will be qualified rather by the unction of His Spirit than by the training of literary institutions. Men of faith and prayer will be constrained to go forth with holy zeal, declaring the words which God gives them. The sins of Babylon will be laid open. The fearful results of enforcing the ["religious"] observances [see the trademark certificate] of the church by civil authority, the inroads of spiritualism [seeking the counsel of worldly lawyers -- the "god of Ekron" -- instead of YAHWEH], the stealthy but rapid progress of the papal power [restriction of liberty of conscience]--all will be unmasked. By these solemn warnings the people will be stirred. Thousands upon thousands will listen who have never heard words like these. In amazement they hear the testimony that Babylon is the church, fallen because of her errors and sins, because of her rejection of the truth sent to her from heaven. As the people go to their former teachers with the eager inquiry, Are these things so? the ministers present fables, prophesy smooth things, to soothe their fears and quiet the awakened conscience. But since many refuse to be satisfied with the mere authority of men and demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord," the popular ministry, like the Pharisees of old, filled with anger as their authority is questioned, will denounce the message as of Satan and stir up the sin-loving multitudes to revile and persecute those who proclaim it. (GC 606, 607; brackets and emphasis supplied)

Now, the foregoing section from The Great Controversy is very revealing.

1) This prophecy has been since the early 1990s, will be until God delivers His people, and IS presently being fulfilled on this forum.

2) There is ONLY one body of "believers" that would be "amazed" at hearing "Babylon is the church." Few denominations ever teach about "Babylon." Members of most congregations would not have any idea what was being implied by the words "Babylon is the church." It is ONLY the "Seventh-day Adventists" who would take the time and effort to consult "their former teachers with...eager inquiry."

3) "inroads of spiritualism": There is ONLY one denomination that is sensitive to "spiritualism." The "state of the dead" is a salient doctrine of the SDA Church. Other churches have been guilty of spiritualistic characteristics and doctrines from early on.

4) It is also likely that ONLY faithful SDA believers would "demand a 'Thus saith the Lord'" after making their initial inquiry and having the ministers only refer to the section from SOP being considered in this thread. We note on this very forum (CA) that a goodly number of "professed SDA believers" are not buying Ellen White's writings as a "Thus saith the Lord," and treating her statements as "mere authority of men." They are now demanding the Bible only as a "Thus saith the Lord."

5) I believe a case could be made for an attempt on this forum to "denounce the [CSDA] message as of Satan."

As I think of more, I shall share.

[Brother Peter]

I also would like to add this:

Quote:

BY EGW

“The church has taken the world into her fellowship, and has given her affections to the enemies of holiness. The church and the world are standing on the same ground in transgression of the law of God. The church prefers to assimilate to the world rather than separate from its customs and vanities.” Manuscript 44, p. 19. 1900.

What is this telling us?

___________________

Bro.Peter

[Brother Peter]

Quote:

By EGW

It is working upon wrong principles that has brought the cause of God into its present embarrassment. The people have lost confidence in those who have the management of the work. Yet we hear that the voice of the Conference is the voice of God. Every time I have heard this, I have thought it was almost blasphemy. The voice of the Conference ought to be the voice of God, but it is not, because some in connection with it are not men of faith and prayer, they are not men of elevated principle. There is not a seeking of God with the whole heart; there is not a realization of the terrible responsibility that rests upon those in this institution to mold and fashion minds after the divine similitude.--Manuscript 37, 1901, p. 8 (April, 1901, Talk by Mrs. E. G. White in the Review Chapel regarding the Southern work). {ChL 20.4}

21

I trust that the truth will be accepted.

___________________

Bro. Peter

[Brother Peter]

Quote:

By EGW

“I am now giving the message God has given me, to give to all who claim to believe the truth: ‘Come out from among them, and be ye separate,’ else their sin in justifying wrongs and framing deceits will continue to be the ruin of souls. We can not afford to be on the wrong side.” Special Testimonies, Series B, #7 p. 61-64. November, 1905.

How can the truth be rejected by the light bearers?

_______________

Bro.Peter

[Brother Peter]

Quote:

By EGW

God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

The truth shall set you free.

_______________________________

Bro Peter

[Light Fox]

Those are some interesting quotes, Peter. I would advise that you be cautious not to do the same thing as the opening poster, however. None of us can afford to take a position without understanding the full context of the writings involved.

Obviously, Mrs. White did not call for a separation from the denomination in her day; those quotes are useful for showing her growing distrust of the General Conference's leadership and the apostasy in the Church in her day, but it had not yet lead the people into full-blown fornication with the kings of the earth. It would be rightly asked, "If all that was wrong, why did she stay a member?"

The answer to that is that there is a difference between apostasy and being "fallen," as the old Sabbath School quarterlies explain clearly.

As far as where the Church is, it would be wrong to imply that because where two or three are gathered is the Church, that the Church is therefore not an organized, visible body. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant to imply with that one? If so, I apologize, and please correct.

One interesting quote that does fit that, though:

“We can see from this scripture (Rev. 12:17) that it is not the true church of God that makes war with those who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.” [signs of the Times, April 22, 1889]

[Pastor_Chick]

I also would like to add this:

Quote:

BY EGW

“The church has taken the world into her fellowship, and has given her affections to the enemies of holiness. The church and the world are standing on the same ground in transgression of the law of God. The church prefers to assimilate to the world rather than separate from its customs and vanities.” Manuscript 44, p. 19. 1900.

What is this telling us?

___________________

Bro.Peter

Bro. Peter,

It is necessary to consider the context and time ("place and time") when applying the statements of Ellen White. In the section you quoted, she was not referring to the SDA Church per se but Christendom in general. Yes, there were problems within the denomination as well, as she often referred to, but we cannot ethically use that section from EGW to bring a reproach upon "the church" that she was in covenant relation to.

In fact, what initiated the very writings that Stan is using to support his thesis on this forum was the use of EGW writings by two zealous SDA believers in the 1892-93 era. They wrote a tract entitled "The Loud Cry" and began distributing it widely. Ellen White was NOT pleased, because these men took it upon themselves to condemn the SDA Church as Babylon without even consulting with EGW to see if she would endorse their application of her writings.

We must handle the writings with extreme care.

[Brother Peter]

Quote:

Q. As far as where the Church is, it would be wrong to imply that because where two or three are gathered is the Church, that the Church is therefore not an organized, visible body. Perhaps I misunderstood what you meant to imply with that one? If so, I apologize, and please correct.

Good point Q I should have explain why I use this quot and also include this part of the passage that is below. While the SDAC is a large body and they think that they will never fall even though there is ample evidence back then that they were in apostasy.

Quote:

EGW: We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil?

They did finally show to God and humanity that they cannot depend upon God for their protection so they went to the Beast for their protection by (Trade Marking The Name).

Thy look at the CSDA as a people void of leadership and not organized because of our demography and number.We are organized, and also a visible body. But as Elen G White earlier on in the passage states

Quote:

EGW: "Do not court singularity for the sake of being odd, but for the sake of avoiding sin and dishonor to God. And in this case we are not to mind even the multitude who are against us. "Thou shalt not follow a multitude to do evil." {UL 315.3}

Here we see the GC Cooperation doing wrong and if we did not leave because she is fallen and accept the call to come out, then we would be partaking of her sins. And we would not have gain the blessings as we do now. I hope that this has clear up whatever miss understanding there was

__________________

Bro Peter

[Stan]

as I have said before...

those who talk about the wheat and tares, usually act like they are the wheat.

[Pastor_Chick]

as I have said before...

those who talk about the wheat and tares, usually act like they are the wheat.

[Pastor_Chick]

As one searches the writings, other statements are discovered that shed more light on characteristics of "Babylon."

Babylon is also charged with the sin of unlawful connection with "the kings of the earth." It was by departure from the Lord, and alliance with the heathen, that the Jewish church became a harlot; and Rome, corrupting herself in like manner by seeking the support of worldly powers, receives a like condemnation. (GC 382)

[skyblue888]

I also would like to add this:

Quote:

BY EGW

“The church has taken the world into her fellowship, and has given her affections to the enemies of holiness. The church and the world are standing on the same ground in transgression of the law of God. The church prefers to assimilate to the world rather than separate from its customs and vanities.” Manuscript 44, p. 19. 1900.

What is this telling us?

Bro.Peter

_____________________________

It is telling us that the church today is in no better condition than the Jewish church was in Christ's day. Remember that in the Desire of Ages, we are told, p.36, that as early as the time of Jesus' birth they had become the representatives of Satan. Thirty some years later when Jesus began His ministry the situation had changed for the worse. Yet we do not find Jesus calling people out of the Jewish Church. Instead we find Him going about doing good. The leaders turned Him over to the secular powers to have Him crucified. This was certainly a sufficient reason for the disciples of Christ after Pentecost to call everyone out of the Jewish Church. However, this is not what happened. The Lord filled them with the Spirit and sent them with a message. It was not a message of condemnation or a call to separate. Their message was the offer of mercy, the offer of pardon for crucifying the Lord of glory. Please read C.O.L.308 middle of the page.

This offer of mercy was rejected, of course, and, exasperated, they turned upon the bearers of the message. There was a great persecution. Acts 8:1. The bearers of the message and their converts were forced out of the Jewish church and they turned to the Gentiles.

History will be repeated.

First the last message of mercy to the church must be proclaimed. The offer of pardon for having crucified Christ by crucifying the messages that had been entrusted to us as a people. This crucifixion took place between 1955 and 1957 when our leaders met with representatives of the churches that constitute Babylon. During these secret meetings the pillars of our faith were repudiated in order for our demonination to be recognized as a Christian denomination, that it may be reckoned among the other churches.

The last offer of pardon through faith in the merits of Christ is to be proclaimed in demonstration of the Spirit and power of God. If it is resisted, if the bearers of that message are persecuted and forced out, they will turn to the world with their message and it will swell into the loud cry and when the mission of the Gospel is completed, the great final test will accomplish the final separation between the wise and the foolish and their destiny will be forever fixed.

sky

[skyblue888]

“The church has taken the world into her fellowship, and has given her affections to the enemies of holiness. The church and the world are standing on the same ground in transgression of the law of God. The church prefers to assimilate to the world rather than separate from its customs and vanities.” Manuscript 44, p. 19. 1900.

I believe she was referring to the SDA church and here is why:

The book Christ's Object Lessons was published in 1900. On page 316, we read, "The church has gone over to the world in transgression of the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law. Daily the church is being converted to the world."

In Bible Commentary, Vol.7, p.959 we read:

"The message to the church of the Laodiceans applies especially to the people of God today. It is a message to professing Christians who have become so much like the world that no difference can be seen." RH Aug.20, 1903.

sky

[Scion]

Hi Sky;

I can appreciate a fair bit of what you're saying, but this statement really left me mystified:

Quote:

Thirty some years later when Jesus began His ministry the situation had changed for the worse. Yet we do not find Jesus calling people out of the Jewish Church. Instead we find Him going about doing good. The leaders turned Him over to the secular powers to have Him crucified. This was certainly a sufficient reason for the disciples of Christ after Pentecost to call everyone out of the Jewish Church. However, this is not what happened. The Lord filled them with the Spirit and sent them with a message. It was not a message of condemnation or a call to separate.

My initial reaction to that was, "Huh?" While it is true that Jesus did not call people out of the Jewish Church, they hadn't crucified Him yet. The reason for this was spelled out long before in Daniel's prophecy: "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate." (Daniel 9:27)

He was to confirm the covenant with Israel until some time AFTER His death, so of course He will not call people out of Israel while confirming the covenant with them. After the crucifixion and Pentecost, on the other hand... we find this of Peter:

"And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added [unto them] about three thousand souls. And they continued stedfastly in the apostles' doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers." (Acts 2: 40 to 42)

By saying "added unto them," Luke is making a very clear distinction between the two groups, the Jewish Church and the Christian Church. If the intention was that they remained devoted members of the Jewish Church, he would not have said they were "added" to the apostles! Furthermore, as devout Jews they would not have continued in the apostles' fellowship, going from house to house for worship, and giving their worldly goods to the Gospel message that the Jewish leaders were actively fighting against.

While it is true that many of the Church members were also "of the circumcision" in terms of beliefs and traditions, they were very much NOT a part of the organization after Pentecost. One might as well say that the Protestants did not call people out of the Roman Catholic Church, or that we are not calling people out of Sunday-keeping Protestantism. Regardless of your position on whether or not the SDA Church can be called "Babylon," I think it is pretty clear that any church that HAS become "Babylon" has eventually had the truth call people out of it. In fact, I think I remember a quote from EGW saying exactly that:

Quote:

"The Saviour was here looking forward to the great ingathering on the day of Pentecost." (The Desire of Ages, Page 192)

It is obvious, at least to me, that "ingathering" means you take something from outside, and bring it inside.

You are quite right when you say that History will be repeated... but when the Latter Rain falls, aren't we expecting that people will leave their falsehoods and unite with the truth?

Quote:

The baptism of the Holy Ghost as on the day of Pentecost will lead to a revival of true religion and to the performance of many wonderful works. Heavenly intelligences will come among us, and men will speak as they are moved upon by the Holy Spirit of God. (Selected Messages Book 2, Page 57)

This is a message of separation from error, and then a unity with truth. I don't see how it could be any more plain?

Even for those who don't accept these Testimonies, we have the Bible directly considering the Christian Church a separate group from both the Gentiles' paganism and the Jewish organization: "For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God." (1Cor 1:22 to 24)

Jesus Himself said, "Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." (MAt 10:34) By His death, He certainly put a "Sword" between the truth and traditions, between those who believed in Him and those (such as the ones who remained in the Jewish Churches) who did not.

So, did I miss something here? There clearly IS an appointed time for separation if things get bad enough, and a call to separate from error is not a message of condemnation at all, though I think you seem to be equating the two...

[skyblue888]

Nice try Scion.

Yes you did miss something. We are in the time of the second and final call of the parable of Matt.22 to the "bidden ones" after the crucifixion. The "established church" has not yet sealed her rejection of God's mercy. We are living in the time of "added probation" between the second call and the third call, the third call being the loud cry to the world.

sky

The SoP is clear as to when the Jewish church sealed her final rejection of God's mercy: at the stoning of Stephen. See C.O.L.308,309.

[Pastor_Chick]

“The church has taken the world into her fellowship, and has given her affections to the enemies of holiness. The church and the world are standing on the same ground in transgression of the law of God. The church prefers to assimilate to the world rather than separate from its customs and vanities.” Manuscript 44, p. 19. 1900.

I believe she was referring to the SDA church and here is why:

The book Christ's Object Lessons was published in 1900. On page 316, we read, "The church has gone over to the world in transgression of the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law. Daily the church is being converted to the world."

[...]

sky

[skyblue888]

Nice try brother. If we can't see that she is talking primarily of God's professed people here, namely the SDA church, something is definitely wrong with us. And you failed to include the third quote:

"The message to the church of the Laodiceans applies especially to the people of God today. It is a message to professing Christians who have become so much like the world that no difference can be seen." RH Aug.20, 1903.

Why is that?

This statement was made at about the same time as the other two.

sky