Is the Church Babylon?

[Overaged]

Stan,

The numbers don't impress me. The Remnant piece is but just a small part of the first great one that a Remnant is from.

There is a great going forth af all walks of Christians today and all present about the same so called gospel. The emerging church thing has it we are all one with the same goal in mind.

Stan I support and give out the true gospel message.

[Gibs]

Ov.

The revival and reformation is what is needed in the structure, you call church if it is to be indeed church. Church is only when the High and Holy One is Present in the midst and the truth is being preached. He must be worshipped in Spirit because He is Spirit. He must be worshipped in Truth because He is the Truth and nothing else is acceptatable, without it He will not be present and you do not have Church!

A lying gospel message saved in sin will not suffice and He rejects it soundly. This is the most destructive message of all the popular worldly so called churches today. Then a host of other false teachings are brought in.

Millions of Jews of old and Catholics today fight hard for the corrupt system they are in believing it is of God and it don't make it so. Satan has taken over most of the "camps" cleverly and the poor sheeple do not know it.

They could have known it but they put their trust in men they hold in esteem and Christ only and His Word are our esteemed guide. Follow me He says for,Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[/color]

[color:#33CCFF]Now you got the following leading everywhere in all the denominational structures today,

Mt 7:15 ¶ Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Did you expect a 'direct' response?

Finger pointing is a 'hard habit to break'!

[phkrause]

Did you expect a 'direct' response?

Finger pointing is a 'hard habit to break'!

right on CoA, and as you point with one there are three pointing right back at you. And how's that other saying go? You can see the twig in someone else but can't see the log in yours!

[Stan]

Brother Gibs...

Can you just answer the questions?

[Gibs]

The Truth is sometimes called a cutting testimony.

" Here the enemy brought in a lie, and man believed it. What we are to do is to purify our souls by obeying the truth, and we are to educate ourselves in a certain faith. What is that certain faith? It is the faith that works by love to purify the soul from every idol that we have enthroned there. We cannot afford to entertain an error because it has been handed down from generation to generation till it has come down to our time.

What we want is truth, and we want it on every point." {1SAT 229.1}

We need to fatten up on the Truth of all things>

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Brother Gibs...

Can you just answer the questions?

Stan, I thought I did, here is the answer I gave, if there is more you would like specified let me know.

"Stan, No I am no longer a member,

Many years ago when the "new age theology" came in when it was seen it was not going to be righted there was a great shaking and many, very many left the denomination and began home churches. That is not the only issue that was of concern, there were many more and many more have come in since I came out and joined a home church. A very many independant ministries broke out and many are still going strong.

I have a friend who recently became a home churcher but back a few years he was adamant against it. But the recent things that have come in did him in and he don't go anymore to my knowledge.

I am not a corporation SDA but a generic one. I am also not a historic Adventist believer. Too much has come to light to not be one of that persuasion.

I am also not a trinitarian, that came in after 1950 and historic SDA's are not really historic if they change to being trinitarian.

The KJV Bible is first and EGW's writings are second only to it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

_________________________

A Freeman In Jesus Christ

[Overaged]

Ov,

When a "church" ceases to follow Him is it any longer His Church?

And no I don't call the present day SDA church Babylon but I do call it a structure of the leading men's cobbling.

[Gibs]

OV,

Well I do have proof and have laid it out here several times. I Am in His Church, "the called out ones", and that is officially the definition for church. His Church is the very few in percentage of so called Christian following today. It is that very small "Remnant" piece that is as the first and main one He and the Apostles set up and grew for a while and since has diminished. The 144,000 will come out of that few. What is the percentage of the few? We don't and can't know, but I believe it is a diminishing number each day.

Zec 8:6 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; If it be marvellous in the eyes of the remnant of this people in these days, should it also be marvellous in mine eyes? saith the LORD of hosts.

Ro 9:27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Scion]

Quote:

It is not uncommon for truth to be mixed with error.

The reason there is no counterfeit $3.00 bill is because there is no such thing as a real $3.00 bill.

Of course. However, simply writing the number "3" on a piece of common paper doesn't prove it's legitimate currency. That is the point I was making. As another poster said above, the numbers don't impress. There are other, better arguments that can be raised in defense of the SDA Church (all with their flaws), but that isn't one of them.

Babylon covers the whole world with her influence, therefore an argument that essentially boils down to, "The SDA Church cannot be Babylon because... look at all the works she has done," is invalid from inception to the clicking of the "submit" button.

[Gibs]

Sure as twice 2 = 4.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Don't you know the Devil knows how to work, far above any man. He knows to go to the top to take overs a people, it's a repeat up through history.

When the church gets into Vying, Striving for greater numbers and tries to make that "strait gate and narrow way" the great broad way she then has taken in the world and lost her mission and her God.

But does she gain in numbers of true ones? No. Oh yes she may gain in numbers but those with "itching ears".

She then has struck out and the Lord gave her seven strikes not just three to boot.

2Ti 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

2Ti 4:4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

When the church gets into Vying, Striving for greater numbers and tries to make that "strait gate and narrow way" the great broad way she then has taken in the world and lost her mission and her God.

But does she gain in numbers of true ones? No. Oh yes she may gain in numbers but those with "itching ears".

She then has struck out and the Lord gave her seven strikes not just three to boot.

[phkrause]

Those are 2 excellent quotes OA. They most definitely tell us a lot about the church and what Jesus is telling us to do.

[Gibs]

But Ov, the true ones do not act independently, we have a leader whose name is above all names and we hear his voice that the majority will not hear. The quaulity we know who it is from is the Truth. That separates the the unwanted from the wanted.

We are not to go where error is being taught and force home to the soul and that is what is being done today. He says and we better heed these words.

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Most wouldn't know the Truth today even if it reached out and bit them.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

We are not to go where error is being taught and force home to the soul and that is what is being done today. He says and we better heed these words.

Most wouldn't know the Truth today even if it reached out and bit them.

These 2 statements would indicate that you do work *independantly;* and the Lord's counsel is clearly against the fault-finding "ministry" that you proffer here.

[Overaged]

Most wouldn't know the Truth today even if it reached out and bit them.

Chap. 1 - God's Purpose for His Church

The church is God's appointed agency for the salvation of men. It was organized for service, and its mission is to carry the gospel to the world. From the beginning it has been God's plan that through His church shall be reflected to the world His fullness and His sufficiency. The members of the church, those whom He has called out of darkness into His marvelous light, are to show forth His glory. The church is the repository of the riches of the grace of Christ; and through the church will eventually be made manifest, even to "the principalities and powers in heavenly places," the final and full display of the love of God. Ephesians 3:10. {AA 9.1}

Many and wonderful are the promises recorded in the Scriptures regarding the church. "Mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people." Isaiah 56:7. "I will make them and the places round about My hill a blessing; and I will cause the shower to come down in his season;

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there shall be showers of blessing." "And I will raise up for them a plant of renown, and they shall be no more consumed with hunger in the land, neither bear the shame of the heathen any more. Thus shall they know that I the Lord their God am with them, and that they, even the house of Israel, are My people, saith the Lord God. And ye My flock, the flock of My pasture, are men, and I am your God, saith the Lord God." Ezekiel 34:26, 29-31. {AA 9.2}

"Ye are My witnesses, saith the Lord, and My servant whom I have chosen: that ye may know and believe Me, and understand that I am He: before Me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after Me. I, even I, am the Lord; and beside Me there is no Saviour. I have declared, and have saved, and I have showed, when there was no strange god among you: therefore ye are My witnesses." "I the Lord have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles; to open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house." Isaiah 43:10-12; 42:6, 7. {AA 10.1}

"In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages; that thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Show yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places. They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for

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He that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall He guide them. And I will make all My mountains a way, and My highways shall be exalted. . . . {AA 10.2}

"Sing, O heavens; and be joyful, O earth; and break forth into singing, O mountains: for the Lord hath comforted His people, and will have mercy upon His afflicted. But Zion said, The Lord hath forsaken me, and my Lord hath forgotten me. Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget, yet will I not forget thee. Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of My hands; thy walls are continually before Me." Isaiah 49:8-16. {AA 11.1}

The church is God's fortress, His city of refuge, which He holds in a revolted world. Any betrayal of the church is treachery to Him who has bought mankind with the blood of His only-begotten Son. From the beginning, faithful souls have constituted the church on earth. In every age the Lord has had His watchmen, who have borne a faithful testimony to the generation in which they lived. These sentinels gave the message of warning; and when they were called to lay off their armor, others took up the work. God brought these witnesses into covenant relation with Himself, uniting the church on earth with the church in heaven. He has sent forth His angels to minister to His church, and the gates of hell have not been able to prevail against His people. {AA 11.2}

Through centuries of persecution, conflict, and darkness, God has sustained His church. Not one cloud has fallen upon it that He has not prepared for; not one opposing

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force has risen to counterwork His work, that He has not foreseen. All has taken place as He predicted. He has not left His church forsaken, but has traced in prophetic declarations what would occur, and that which His Spirit inspired the prophets to foretell has been brought about. All His purposes will be fulfilled. His law is linked with His throne, and no power of evil can destroy it. Truth is inspired and guarded by God; and it will triumph over all opposition. {AA 11.3}

During ages of spiritual darkness the church of God has been as a city set on a hill. From age to age, through successive generations, the pure doctrines of heaven have been unfolding within its borders. Enfeebled and defective as it may appear, the church is the one object upon which God bestows in a special sense His supreme regard. It is the theater of His grace, in which He delights to reveal His power to transform hearts. {AA 12.1}

"Whereunto," asked Christ, "shall we liken the kingdom of God? or with what comparison shall we compare it?" Mark 4:30. He could not employ the kingdoms of the world as a similitude. In society He found nothing with which to compare it. Earthly kingdoms rule by the ascendancy of physical power; but from Christ's kingdom every carnal weapon, every instrument of coercion, is banished. This kingdom is to uplift and ennoble humanity. God's church is the court of holy life, filled with varied gifts and endowed with the Holy Spirit. The members are to find their happiness in the happiness of those whom they help and bless.

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{AA 12.2}

Wonderful is the work which the Lord designs to accomplish through His church, that His name may be glorified. A picture of this work is given in Ezekiel's vision of the river of healing: "These waters issue out toward the east country, and go down into the desert, and go into the sea: which being brought forth into the sea, the waters shall be healed. And it shall come to pass, that everything that liveth, which moveth, whithersoever the rivers shall come, shall live: . . . and by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine." Ezekiel 47:8-12. {AA 13.1}

From the beginning God has wrought through His people to bring blessing to the world. To the ancient Egyptian nation God made Joseph a fountain of life. Through the integrity of Joseph the life of that whole people was preserved. Through Daniel God saved the life of all the wise men of Babylon. And these deliverances are as object lessons; they illustrate the spiritual blessings offered to the world through connection with the God whom Joseph and Daniel worshiped. Everyone in whose heart Christ abides, everyone who will show forth His love to the world, is a worker together with God for the blessing of humanity. As he receives from the Saviour grace to impart to others, from his whole being flows forth the tide of spiritual life.

[Gibs]

Yes OV.

But what is His Church? Answer,

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church." {UL 315.5}

It is Ekklesia "The Called Out Ones" He tells us.

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

These follow no man and they have no head but Him. He is the ordainer and He is the organizer of His "Church", Ekklesia.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[phkrause]

Yes OV.

But what is His Church? Answer,

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church." {UL 315.5}

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

These follow no man and they have no head but Him. He is the ordainer and He is the organizer of His "Church", Ekklesia.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Exactly Gibs, its definitely not the great cathedral, neither the various denominations. But there has to be one that he considers above the rest! I would have to say since he called EGW to be his prophet and she, being associated with the SDA church should be a big hint! As far as his church being those that love him, I totally agree, and they will come from all the different denominations at the very end of earth's history. In other words this will be the remnant of those left.

[Gibs]

PK,

I cannot take it that way because He said,

Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

You see all the so called churchs have made the gate and way so wide and broad that practically the whole world could come pouring through and would to be saved in their sin and ways.

But Jesus says it is through that strait gate and narrow way that few will find and traverse that a way.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

(quoting EGW)....True, there are tares with the wheat; but Christ said He would send His angels to first gather the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into the garner. I know that the Lord loves His church.

It is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms.

There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be.

This is a very significant statement. She wrote that "there is not the least evidence" that the SDA Church will be broken up into independent atoms. She said this in 1893, after she had written scathing rebukes to the SDA Church, such as the following:

Quote:

I was confirmed in all I had stated in Minneapolis, that a reformation must go through the churches. Reforms must be made, for spiritual weakness and blindness were upon the people who had been blessed with great light and precious opportunities and privileges. As reformers they had come out of the denominational churches, but they now act a part similar to that which the churches acted. We hoped that there would not be the necessity for another coming out. [EGW'88 356, 357 (1889)]

Notice that despite the very serious problems in the SDA Church in 1889, Ellen White said that the SDA Church "is not to be disorganized or broken up into independent atoms.

There is not the least consistency in this; there is not the least evidence that such a thing will be."

God still loves the SDA Church. He hasn't rejected the SDA Church. The very reason He calls the Church to repentence and reformation is that the Church is NOT Babylon. If it was a Babylonian Church-- that is, a fallen church-- there would be no call from God for the church to change. When a church is a part of Babylon, there is no more hope for it to change, and therefore God MUST call His loyal people out of it and into an organization that gives God's end-time message to the world. That church is still the Seventh-day Adventist Church. The message will go through to the second coming of Christ. The only question is, who will go through with it?

[John317]

... No I am no longer a member,

Many years ago when the "new age theology" came in when it was seen it was not going to be righted there was a great shaking and many, very many left the denomination and began home churches.

This means you've allowed what you consider to be false doctrines to shake you out of the church. That is what Ellen White said would happen to many people when she warned us against "the shaking."

Originally Posted By: Gibs

I am not a corporation SDA but a generic one. I am also not a historic Adventist believer. Too much has come to light to not be one of that persuasion.

I am also not a trinitarian, that came in after 1950 and historic SDA's are not really historic if they change to being trinitarian.

F.M. Wilcox, the editor of the R&H, wrote in 1913 that the SDA church at that time believed in the doctrine of the Trinity. Yes, there were many non-Trinitarians in the church when Wilcox made that statement, but the doctrine of the Trinity had already become well established in the SDA church before the death of Ellen White. Given the fact that Ellen White appointed F.M Wilcox to the board of directors of the EGW Estate demonstrates her confidence that Wilcox wasn't leading the Church into false doctrines. The evidence is that by the late 1940s, most of the SDA church believed in the Trinity. Robert Olson, who had himself been a non-Trinitarian in the early 1940s, wrote an informative and worth-while paper on this aspect of the history of the Trinity doctrine. It is called "Thoughts on the Deity and the Humanity of Christ," WDF #1475 at the EGW Estate Loma Linda Branch Office.

The only thing that matters, Gibs, is if the Bible and SoP contains the concept of the Trinity. It doesn't matter one bit whether James White or J.H Waggoner or Joseph Bates or John Andrews beleived it. Those men would never have wanted you to base your beliefs on the authority of men or of church traditions. Our whole Adventist movement stood strongly against the idea that church doctrines are based on anything but Holy Scripture.

Originally Posted By: Gibs

The KJV Bible is first and EGW's writings are second only to it.

I agree that the Bible is first. While I love the KJV above all other translations (even though I realize its shortcomings), yet I believe many other English translations have a part to play in the spread of the Gospel.

[Scion]

Hello John,

You wrote:

Quote:

This means you've allowed what you consider to be false doctrines to shake you out of the church. That is what Ellen White said would happen to many people when she warned us against "the shaking."

Actually, "the shaking" applies only to the Church that is following God's commandments and teaching His doctrines. The Church does not remain "the Church" if it has separated from Christ. On this thread, we have seen evidence of teachings different from those which God inspired at the beginning of the movement. We have seen unity with the world and rejection of Christian, Protestant principles. At some point, God DOES call people out from a Body; and we must concede this is true, or we would all have to go back to Judaism. The only question is, "What is that point?"

Quote:

F.M. Wilcox, the editor of the R&H, wrote in 1913 that the SDA church at that time believed in the doctrine of the Trinity. Yes, there were many non-Trinitarians in the church when Wilcox made that statement, but the doctrine of the Trinity had already become well established in the SDA church before the death of Ellen White.

Actually, the statement of an editor at the R&H reflects what that editor of the R&H believes. The fact that the anti-Trinitarian statements by the pioneers of Adventism were so strong, and the acceptance of it so gradual - with no Bible-based refutation of the original position, and no clear turning point of acceptance for this "new light" - this is not the way that God brings about reformation in the Church. It is how Satan's influence infiltrates it. At some point, "majority rules" mentality ceases to be reflective of the genuine faith. If the Bible teaches a concept different than the accepted doctrine, and nobody believes it - it is still the truth.

If you've read the history of how Sunday worship entered into the apostolic Church, you will notice the same pattern. Of course, at some point, some epistle-editor would have said, "Oh, yes, we hold our services on Sunday." That does not mean it is what God intended to be the case.

Quote:

The only thing that matters, Gibs, is if the Bible and SoP contains the concept of the Trinity. It doesn't matter one bit whether James White or J.H Waggoner or Joseph Bates or John Andrews beleived it.

I would reply that the only thing that matters is that we have NOT ONE statement from an inspired source that contains anything matching the concept of the modern "Trinity" doctrine. It was an absurd fable that was shoved down the throats of the bishops during the Nicean Counsel, and it was thrown up again, so that it had to be force-fed a second time during the Councel of Rimini (although Catholicism doesn't talk about that one so much).

Protestantism, as we know, did not wholly shake off the errors of Romanism; but we know for certain that "advancing light," the defense made for the eventual acceptance of the Trinity in Adventism, does not go BACK to some previously-rejected position. It goes on into greater and greater truth. The Roman Catholics were not more correct in their understanding of the nature of the Godhead than the faithful, Spirit-led, Bible-studing, early Advent believers, and that's what modern Adventism would have us accept. Shameful.

[Gibs]

We are also counseled by EGW not to go where error is being taught and forced home to the soul by well oiled orators of deceit.

That is the "load" being laid on you in most of the "churchs" today. She maybe can't yet be called Babylon quite yet because of the Sabbath and a few congregations that haven't dipped so low but for the most part and here with me I have to heed this scripture as locally it is time.

Re 18:4 And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.

And Also always the true ones must come out as the leadership cannot be overcome, it would have had to be done between 1901 and 1903 and after that EGW was too tired and discouraged to do it or try, a few comments she made prove it.

His Ekklesia is the called out ones and many are now and it began heavily around 22 years ago.

Well we got to, His Spirit is tugging,

2Co 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Yes, Scion I too must agree, the Trinity Doctrine that came in is just another example of the falling further away. It is totally unscriptural and has no grounds to believed. It is only a well "oiled" deception.

Where has the discerment for the Truth of things gotten to in the church today? It too has fallen by the wayside and little is it cared for.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Stan]

Belief in a different view on any biblical subject, does not make the Church Babylon.

Too many people come here, hijack the board, just trying to get people to reinforce their own delusions..

If there are inspirational posts it would give more credibility to those who proclaim the Church as babylon, the mark of the beast, the fallen church etc, but those are rare from the naysayers..

This forum was not created to hijack peoples time into always defending the organization.

This concept was pointed out to me a couple of years ago, and I spoke of this before, when a Shepard Rod was realizing as he was coming to the close of his days, that so much of his life was wasted attacking the Church, smugly, I might add, and he felt that most of his life was wasted, he ended up putting something in his Will to try to compensate for the damage he did over the years, and for not bearing any fruit other than guile and bitterness.

If you want to attack the Church, go elsewhere.

Share inspiration thoughts. AND, please, not just quotes from someone else.