Is the Church Babylon?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

EliYH,

Have any of the so called denominational churchs prevailed against the gates of Hell?

Any out there tell me about it if you can.

Yes! I can tell you! It is The Seventh-day Adventist Church! Do not discount "denominations" until you know what importance God places on them.

Ezra’s example, in words and deeds, carried with it a weight of influence, for the Spirit of God was with him. . . . He diligently prepared his heart to do the work that he believed was appointed to him. He searched out the words that had been written concerning the duties of God’s denominated people, and he found a solemn pledge that God’s people had given that they would obey the words of God and the pledge of God’s blessing to the obedient. . . . {CTr 185.7}

Christ has said of His people, "Ye are the light of the world." We are the Lord's denominated people, to proclaim the truths of heavenly origin. The most solemn, sacred work ever given to mortals is the proclamation of the first, second, and third angel's messages to our world. In our large cities there should be health institutes to care for the sick, and to teach the grand principles of health reform. {CD 76.2}

Seventh-day Adventists are now to stand forth separate and distinct, a people denominated by the Lord as His own. Until they do this, He cannot be glorified in them. Truth and error cannot stand in copartnership. Let us now place ourselves where God has said that we should stand.... We are to strive for unity but not on the low level of conformity to worldly policy and union with the popular churches.--Lt 113, 1903. {2MCP 559.2}

Who are these?--God's denominated people--those who on this earth have witnessed to their loyalty. Who are they?--Those who have kept the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus; those who have owned the Crucified One as their Saviour. {OHC 345.6}

We are to invite everyone--the high and the low, the rich and the poor, all sects and classes--to share the benefits of our medical institutions. We receive into our institutions people of all denominations. But as for ourselves we are strictly denominational; we are sacredly denominated by God and are under His theocracy. {7T 109.1}

Exodus 31:12-17. {9T 17.3}

Do not these words point us out as God's denominated people? and do they not declare to us that so long as time shall last, we are to cherish the sacred, denominational distinction placed upon us? The children of Israel were to observe the Sabbath throughout their generations "for a perpetual covenant." The Sabbath has lost none of its meaning. It is still the sign between God and His people, and it will be so forever.

excellent points OA

[Stan]

FWIW

My experience over the years with those who shout the SDA church is bablyon, have a Christian experience that is somewhat less than desired, often totally bottom of the important things in their life, and view the Church as a reflection of their pathetic experience.. NOt too many joyous Christians shout the claim about the Church being Babylon.

Others may have a differing experience. That is just my observations.

Impersonating the Church, or a Pastor, is a good fund raiser for some folks.

[Overaged]

I have to agree with you there Stan. Anyone who I have met that echoes this cry about the church being Babylon has been very negative and hard to talk about Jesus with.

[Gibs]

Then you like the fact the SDA church became an organization of the world. Then you like NLP and Super NLP that came in years ago. Then Lab 1, 2, 3 came in, the trinity doctrine came in and Historic SDA's shouldn't stand for that. Then the "new age theology" of salvation came in, the same as in all the Sunday churches. Then "emergence church" with all the entailment that came with it. All the spiritual exercises of Ignatius Loyola, just with an Adventist twist to it but reads almost identical.

The right name for it is apostasy!

The liberal Adventists of today love it. It is not much different in the Sunday churches, except the Sabbath is regarded.

It came in like on the same principle as a frog in a pot of water, bring it to a boil slow and the frog don't jump out but stays there and cooks for your dinner.

That is what Satan is doing to the saints.

The Jews of old stood stauchly for the organization too, but who is it an organization of? Men! That is who! All denominational churces of today are "structures", a cobbling of the leading men.

The church after the year 1903 was out of any control by EGW. She was pretty discouraged and wouldn't go to any GC meetings.

I don't call her Babylon yet as she still holds to Sabbath, but she is a structure to me and many, many others.

Good luck on your ride with her. Whatever luck is.

I will persue this subject no further as I've went over this long and hard in days past. Time is short Brothers, get it right now, do like the Bereans. Do it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Stan]

Gibs, do you go regularly to an Adventist Church? Are you a member?

[Overaged]

Do it!

Do what????

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Do it!

Do what????

Exactly! Do what????? Oh I know, complain, complain but have no solution but complain some more. I'd say that if we asked each SDA if they see any problems in the church, they'd probably say yes. But you don't see them all running away because they know that we are all sinners and fall short of what Jesus would like us to be. But at least they try to do what he has asked us to do amd that is to encourage each other to hang on just a little longer. That doesn't mean that all SDA do that, but at least they realize that as a group we can help one another more than if we go off half cocked and than become a stumbling block for the next SDA or Christian's in general. I mean would we just abandon our family when one member does something we don't like? No we rally around and help that person. Because when we get to the last days of this earth, it wont just be SDAs alone, there will be a remnant from all people's.

[Overaged]

I mean would we just abandon our family when one member does something we don't like? No we rally around and help that person.

This is one of the best comments I have seen on this forum about all the Babylon hub-bub.

[Gibs]

Do What? Get busy and read and understand it for yourself. You are leaning on other men. The text is clear enough that it is improperly interpreted. It says what it means and means what it says, it's 5'th grAde reAding level.

The vision Bros. is for the time of the end, not back yonder before 1844. Man it's clear water.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

Do What? Get busy and read and understand it for yourself. You are leaning on other men. The text is clear enough that it is improperly interpreted. It says what it means and means what it says, it's 5'th grAde reAding level.

The vision Bros. is for the time of the end, not back yonder before 1844. Man it's clear water.

You cant see in muddy waters man. Thats what you present here. Muddy water, 1st grade "evangelism." Make the others look bad, and call yourself "overcomer." (good)

[Gibs]

Sure enough it is clear water, Read,

Da 8:17 So he came near where I stood: and when he came, I was afraid, and fell upon my face: but he said unto me, Understand, O son of man: for at the time of the end shall be the vision.

We are in it now, it started in 1844, clear as a crystal.

I move on.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Stan]

Gibs, do you go regularly to an Adventist Church? Are you a member?

[Gibs]

Stan, No I am no longer a member,

Many years ago when the "new age theology" came in when it was seen it was not going to be righted there was a great shaking and many, very many left the denomination and began home churches. That is not the only issue that was of concern, there were many more and many more have come in since I came out and joined a home church. A very many independant ministries broke out and many are still going strong.

I have a friend who recently became a home churcher but back a few years he was adamant against it. But the recent things that have come in did him in and he don't go anymore to my knowledge.

I am not a corporation SDA but a generic one. I am also not a historic Adventist believer. Too much has come to light to not be one of that persuasion.

I am also not a trinitarian, that came in after 1950 and historic SDA's are not really historic if they change to being trinitarian.

The KJV Bible is first and EGW's writings are second only to it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

Stan, No I am no longer a member,

Many years ago when the "new age theology" came in when it was seen it was not going to be righted there was a great shaking and many, very many left the denomination and began home churches.

To His church, Christ has given ample facilities, that He may receive a large revenue of glory from His redeemed, purchased possession. The church, being endowed with the righteousness of Christ, is His depositary, in which the wealth of His mercy, His love, His grace, is to appear in full and final display. The declaration in His intercessory prayer, that the Father’s love is as great toward us as toward Himself, the only-begotten Son, and that we shall be with Him where He is, forever one with Christ and the Father, is a marvel to the heavenly host, and it is their great joy. The gift of His Holy Spirit, rich, full, and abundant, is to be to His church as an encompassing wall of fire, which the powers of hell shall not prevail against. In their untainted purity and spotless perfection. Christ looks upon His people as the reward of all His suffering, His humiliation, and His love, and the supplement of His glory—Christ the great center from which radiates all glory. “Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb.”—General Conference Bulletin, 1893, pages 408, 409. Reprinted in Testimonies to Ministers, pgs 15-19

[Gibs]

O,

Since then the church has left her first Love and went for another. She don't follow Him but does men. EGW made it clear after 1903 that the leading men would not take council anymore and we need all the letters that used to be on the disc that aren't there no more.

After she got back from Austrailia she refused to go to any more GC meetings as she was too worked up and the testimony she would have to give. She actually was broken hearted. One may be able to get those old letters from SDAnonymous in an E book for a price, but don't know the price offhand. He was on this site and let you all know of the extra writings now being able to get out of the vaults but he didn't get muck response here.

Ov, All are given more than ample opportunity to be saved too, but how many are? And the worst part is the false theology of salvation is the greatest destroyer among those who would.

Remember something, Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[/color]

Mt 7:15 ¶ [color:#FF0000]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Sure the church too has been given ample opportunity, but there is a problem, she has taken the broad road of the world which is not throught that strait gate and up that narrow way.

Look with discernment as all isn't as we would like to see it.

An enemy has come in and sowed tares and led off the leaders and the laity. Yes it is a sad day, but so true.

The same happened to Israel of old, then happened to the church and stemed into the Papacy, but few stayed with the narrow way through that strait gate. and now it has happened again.

Pilgrims it is wake up time, the alarm has been sounded for many a year mow, but the darling church slumbers on unconcerned.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Just to add a quote I just came across,

A quote, EGW,

"The message "Go forward" is still to be heard and respected. The varying circumstances taking place in our world call for labor which will meet these peculiar developments. The Lord has need of men who are spiritually sharp and clear-sighted, men worked by the Holy Spirit, who are certainly receiving manna fresh from heaven. Upon the minds of such, God's Word flashes light, revealing to them more than ever before the safe path. The Holy Spirit works upon mind and heart. The time has come when through God's messengers the scroll is being unrolled to the world. Instructors in our schools should never be bound about by being told that they are to teach only what has been taught hitherto. Away with these restrictions. There is a God to give the message His people shall speak. Let not any minister feel under bonds or be gauged by men's measurement. The gospel must be fulfilled in accordance with the messages God sends. That which God gives His servants to speak today would not perhaps have been present truth twenty years ago, but it is God's message for this time." {1888 133.2}

How about around 168 years ago?

Prove to me she was a historic believer.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

O,

Remember something, Mt 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Mt 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.[/color]

Mt 7:15 ¶ [color:#FF0000]Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Sure the church too has been given ample opportunity, but there is a problem, she has taken the broad road of the world which is not throught that strait gate and up that narrow way.

Look with discernment as all isn't as we would like to see it.

Gibs; it is with a heavy heart that I confront this same issue that has dogged church members for all of the 23 years I have been a church member. The road you are travelling - the one where you accuse the church of being "Babylon;" has now become "the broad way" because so many now have chosen it.

I am well aware of the shortcomings of the Church, and of many individual members, but I, for one, have decided to not leave a family member, just because they are not perfect. The "narrow way" that Jesus referred to; I believe, is to love those who maybe do not love you; who are not as perfect as you perceive yourself to be; who do not agree with you; who treat you with malice and derisions. The narrow way" is to love the unlovely, and the unloveable. The true narrow way is to be like Jesus who did not leave His church family just because SOME of them had fallen into sin and apostasy. Ellen White didn't do it either. No amount of "secret documents" "supposed cover-ups," or other conspiracy theory mantras can prove otherwise.

Gibs; Jesus died for the Church, that we might live for the Church. You have His open invitation to join with her, and to adopt the narrow way, and love the people, as Christ did...check out the enclosed picture.

[Overaged]

Just to add a quote I just came across,

A quote, EGW,

"The message "Go forward" is still to be heard and respected. The varying circumstances taking place in our world call for labor which will meet these peculiar developments. The Lord has need of men who are spiritually sharp and clear-sighted, men worked by the Holy Spirit, who are certainly receiving manna fresh from heaven. Upon the minds of such, God's Word flashes light, revealing to them more than ever before the safe path. {1888 133.2}

How about around 168 years ago?

[Gibs]

Ov,

When a "church" ceases to follow Him is it any longer His Church?

And no I don't call the present day SDA church Babylon but I do call it a structure of the leading men's cobbling.

His Church, by EGW,

God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock.--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886, to her older sister and her husband who had not accepted the Sabbath truth. {UL 315.7}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[CoAspen]

Constant complaining reminds me of small children who have not learned that life is not all about them. Even in the work environment, the same process goes on. As adults they have options, change jobs, suggest solutions and if those solutions are not used, then accept it and move on. Belonging to a church is no different, accept it or move on. No salvation by belonging, but constant complaining can very well 'color' ones perception and discourage others. In the work place when an individual becomes a hindrance to the work environment and a detriment to the organization, it is suggested they find an organization that is more suited to them or face termination.

The one suggestion that I have to tell my staff, quite often, is grow up! You have options, exercise them!!!

Off shoots, leavers of the church, etc, the same advice applies, move on, life is not about you, you left so quit complaining about something you are no longer a part of!!!

Be more constructive in your own life and God will take care of you and the .orgs!!

[Stan]

Gibs, interesting comments..

I can say this, I support an organization right now that is working in over 200 countries, has about 20-25000 people baptized every week with an average of 200 new Churches or Companies meeting for the first time.

We have about an 80% reunion rate over a 5 year people, that is 800,000 + staying about about 200,000+ leaving.

And that does not count the 'underground churches'

That is my part in fulfilling the gospel commission..

Tell me how you are supporting the gospel commission.

The things that most people say about joining Babylon are usually trivial in the big scheme of the work of the Church. Or worse yet, the style of music,

[Stan]

Really, so you do not like one side of the information that you have read...

It is just like someone still living in a one-sided view of 1888.

SO what are you doing to take the gospel to every kindred nation and tongue?

[Scion]

Actually, when I was a member of the mainstream Church, I certainly noticed the changes that Gibs mentioned. It's deviated so far away from God's originally conceived "Adventist Church" I don't see how any name but "Confusion" can possibly apply. Ellen White certainly warned that it was possible for the SDA Church to become a "sister to fallen Babylon," if certain errors were not corrected. Those were her very words. Well, those errors were NOT corrected (they are identified in a compilation called "Testimonies on Sexual Behavior," among other places), therefore it should be no surprise that a genuine prophet accurately predicted the result of such laxity. The camp was not cleansed, thus the curse has come.

My experience as a Christian has been joyful. People find me easy to talk to... but I consider the General Conference Organization (not the true and pristine SDA Church, which is faithful to the inspired teachings of the pioneers) to indeed be "a sister to fallen Babylon" as was predicted of her. I realize that some fringe groups will pair this declaration with some really extreme beliefs and practices, and they can become positively obnoxious, but a donkey can also speak the words of God and give a true testimony against a faith that has backslidden into worldliness, hypocrisy, censorship, and downright cruelty. I've seen some examples, sadly, on this very forum.

Pointing to the "wonderful works" of the Church as a defense of its spiritual condition, though? Who has a better claim to Churches, hospitals and charitable works than the Roman Catholic Church? Who can make a more justified claim of having reached "all the world" with its message? That is no defense at all.

[Gibs]

Stan,

The numbers don't impress me. The Remnant piece is but just a small part of the first great one that a Remnant is from.

There is a great going forth af all walks of Christians today and all present about the same so called gospel. The emerging church thing has it we are all one with the same goal in mind.

Stan I support and give out the true gospel message. There are ministries that do that cover the world. Shortwave radio is one of the best, not so much here in the USA but in the other countries, especially Shortwave radio is something they about all have, very inexpensive compared to the cost of other means.

But shortwave has the ones who are truly serious and preach the truth of Salvation by about all of them and some of the ones of SDAdventism that broadcast world wide. A good one to hear on Shortwave is Pastor Butch Paugh and is not a SDA but preaches better than about all of them of Liberal SDA's do and he is a Sabbathe keeper and those of him and his supporters and he is heard world wide.

The ones who preach it straight in Adventism are not liked by mainstream Adventists.

The 144,00 probably will not all be SDA's but by the power of the Holy Spirit will give no doubt the last call.

More maybe later, a bad thunderstorm is on us here,

Ones like Dennis Priebie, Doug Batchelor, Kenny Shelton and Walter Veith. These are of the older Adventism. We need the likes of these and old timers like HMS Richards Sr., JL Tucker and Joe Crews to name a few.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Overaged]

Pointing to the "wonderful works" of the Church as a defense of its spiritual condition, though? Who has a better claim to Churches, hospitals and charitable works than the Roman Catholic Church? Who can make a more justified claim of having reached "all the world" with its message? That is no defense at all.

It is not uncommon for truth to be mixed with error.

The reason there is no counterfeit $3.00 bill is because there is no such thing as a real $3.00 bill.