Fausto Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 I came across this via someone who has been trying hard to convince me that Adventism is apostate, I won't budge as there will be a shaking and yes preaching of falsehoods will happen right in our midst! I have seen stuff with my two eyes at the BRI website that I did not like about the KJV only issue and some non-truths being written there about both Wescott and Hort, I verified this agains't Walter Veith's dvd on the battle of the bibles, and he has written confirmation that it is not so, both were involved in sinister organizations and had sinister motives, turns out most other translations come from their original work! But let's look at this one and have some comments: Adventist Pastor Dwight Nelson Teaches that Allah is God How can this be????? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fausto Posted June 20, 2011 Author Share Posted June 20, 2011 The thing is there is more: Yale center for faith and culture Ecumenism! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Gail Posted June 20, 2011 Administrators Share Posted June 20, 2011 Fausto, did you know that EGW used a Westcott and Hort Bible in the Desire of Ages? Quote Isaiah 32:17 And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 20, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 20, 2011 The English Revised Version was based on the Wescott and Hort Greek text, as is the 1901 American Standard Version. Ellen White occasionally used both translations. She never had anything negative to say about them. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 20, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 20, 2011 I don't agree with Pastor Dwight Nelson about the Koran or about Allah. I think that he is trying to keep people from saying things that could discourage Muslims from studying the Bible with SDAs. And it is true that we need to be careful in how we talk with Muslims about the Koran. I have no doubt that the angel who dictated the Koran to Muhammed in the cave was not the angel Gabriel, as that spirit claimed to be. Yet if I immediately tell Muslims what I believe, I would have no chance to tell them anything else. However, that is no excuse for telling them falsehoods, such as that Allah is the God of the Bible. "Allah" does mean "God" in Aramaic, but Allah and Yahweh are not one and the same Being. Mohammad claimed that the Qu'ran was dictacted word for word by Allah. If that were the case, and if Allah is Yahweh, it would mean that Yahweh denies in the Qu'ran that Jesus died on the cross. It would mean that Yahweh said He never had any Son and that Muslims should have their special prayers on Friday. I believe that if people really study both the Koran and the Bible, they will see for themselves that they cannot have been inspired by the same God. But do I help Muslims by directly telling them that their "holy book" is inspired by Satan? That is the question. I don't think that's the best approach, because they wouldn't understand it except as an attack on a book they consider holy. There will be time to tell our Muslim friends that the Koran is wrong, but we need to be wise in choosing when and how we communicate this truth to them. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Restin Posted June 20, 2011 Share Posted June 20, 2011 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 20, 2011 Administrators Share Posted June 20, 2011 Fausto, We had a prolonged debate on this earlier. You may want to take a look at it: http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/428134/1.html Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 Dwight Nelson is "ecumenical" in his views. He could be a Jesuit who has infiltrated the church many years ago. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 I don't agree with Pastor Dwight Nelson about the Koran or about Allah. I think that he is trying to keep people from saying things that could discourage Muslims from studying the Bible with SDAs. And it is true that we need to be careful in how we talk with Muslims about the Koran. I have no doubt that the angel who dictated the Koran to Muhammed in the cave was not the angel Gabriel, as that spirit claimed to be. Yet if I immediately tell Muslims what I believe, I would have no chance to tell them anything else. However, that is no excuse for telling them falsehoods, such as that Allah is the God of the Bible. "Allah" does mean "God" in Aramaic, but Allah and Yahweh are not one and the same Being. Mohammad claimed that the Qu'ran was dictacted word for word by Allah. If that were the case, and if Allah is Yahweh, it would mean that Yahweh denies in the Qu'ran that Jesus died on the cross. It would mean that Yahweh said He never had any Son and that Muslims should have their special prayers on Friday. I believe that if people really study both the Koran and the Bible, they will see for themselves that they cannot have been inspired by the same God. But do I help Muslims by directly telling them that their "holy book" is inspired by Satan? That is the question. I don't think that's the best approach, because they wouldn't understand it except as an attack on a book they consider holy. There will be time to tell our Muslim friends that the Koran is wrong, but we need to be wise in choosing when and how we communicate this truth to them. Thank you John for that info, for everything you shared so far. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted June 21, 2011 Share Posted June 21, 2011 The thing is there is more: Yale center for faith and culture Ecumenism! "There has been for years, in churches of the protestant faith, a strong and growing sentiment in favor of a union based upon common points of doctrine. To secure that union, the discussion of the subjects upon which all were not agreed--however important they might be from a Bible standpoint--must necessarily be waived." G.C.444 sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fausto Posted June 21, 2011 Author Share Posted June 21, 2011 Exactly my point! I disagree with his views and what's more it is being said from the pulpit that amounts to apostasy from my point of view! Nevertheless you have a point! One can never argue to the point that you loose the witness you are trying to convey, so it goes with catholics, Muslims and other faiths who don't believe as we do, God however is very specific when pointing out right from wrong, and so we have to be careful not to get ecumenical which is not God's view at all! He stands alone, He alone is the God of the Universe, Allah is but a idol to the moon god, even if the name itself really means God! The muslim's symbol is Baal-Hadad. See also Baal Hadad Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members phkrause Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 I'm sorry but I'm in agreement with Pastor Nelson. I would say that he has studied into this just as much as anyone. And I don't believe he would just say something that was that far out. Quote phkrause By the decree enforcing the institution of the papacy in violation of the law of God, our nation will disconnect herself fully from righteousness. When Protestantism shall stretch her hand across the gulf to grasp the hand of the Roman power, when she shall reach over the abyss to clasp hands with spiritualism, when, under the influence of this threefold union, our country shall repudiate every principle of its Constitution as a Protestant and republican government, and shall make provision for the propagation of papal falsehoods and delusions, then we may know that the time has come for the marvelous working of Satan and that the end is near. {5T 451.1} Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 How do you say God in German? Spanish? French? Danish? Arabic? Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 The only one I know is Arabic, The way to say God in Arabic is Allah.... Nothing magical about that.. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 22, 2011 How do you sayGod in German? Spanish? German: Gott Spanish: deos Greek: theos Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 22, 2011 ...The way to say God in Arabic is Allah.... Nothing magical about that.. God's personal name is Yahweh, or Jehovah. Here's the question: Is Allah the same Person as Yahweh-- i.e., does Yahweh have the same character and personality as the one known as Allah, who revealed himself in the Qu'ran? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 In Arabic....... Allah was the God of Abraham..... Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 22, 2011 Here's where I have a problem with the concept that Allah and the God of the Bible are one and the same God: If Allah was the God of Abraham, then Allah and Christ are one and the same because Christ was the God of Abraham. Therefore Yahweh and Christ and Allah are the same God. But are we to believe that Christ commanded the angel Gabriel to dictate the Qu'ran? Muhammad and the Muslims claim that the Koran was dictated word for word by Allah. So there's no way of explaining "errors" by saying the truth got lost in the transmission or in translation. Given that understanding, it's hard to see why God would inspire Muhammad to write 37: 102 to 113. Those verses indicate that Abraham was told to sacrifice Ishmael rather than Isaac. In the Koran, Issac was clearly born after Abraham dreamed that he should sacrifice his son. If Allah and the God of the Bible are the same, wouldn't it be right to expect the Qu'ran and the Bible to tell the same story? It comes down to the test given to us in Isaiah 8: 20: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 22, 2011 Administrators Share Posted June 22, 2011 I think you are mixing up the testimony of the witness with the object of the testimony. Is the God of the OT the same as the God of the NT? Their descriptions and actions seem quite different. Does that establish different gods or different perceptions by different witnesses of the same God? Muhammad testified of the true God but with a flawed perception and testimony about the true God. We believe that the Bible gives the most reliable testimony of the true God. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 22, 2011 I think you are mixing up the testimony of the witness with the object of the testimony. Is the God of the OT the same as the God of the NT? Their descriptions and actions seem quite different. Does that establish different gods or different perceptions by different witnesses of the same God? The NT does not contradict the Old Testament in any substantive way. There's really perfect harmony between the Testaments. The New Testament is the fulfilment of the Old. One cannot really say that the Koran is the fulfillment of the Old Testament or of the New. The apparent difference between the God of the OT and the God of the New can easily be explained. But even so, the differences aren't the same as the differences between the God of the Koran and the God of the Bible. There are many major contradictions between the Koran and the Bible. For example, the God of the Koran forgives all sins without any shedding of blood, and He tells Muhammad that Jesus didn't die on the cross. The Koran also firmly opposes the doctrine of the Trinity, and claims that Allah never had a son. Allah portrays Himself as a solitary God, alone in the universe. Yahweh is also the only God in the universe, but the difference is that Yahweh is three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Koran also teaches that the Bible predicted the coming of Muhammad. It teaches that the Holy Spirit is angels and that the Comforter is Muhammad. Another way in which the Koran contradicts the Bible is the Koran teaches there will be sex and marriage in heaven. People will have menservants in heaven. People who do battle for Allah are rewarded with heaven and with virgins, etc. It teaches that Allah's servants should not be kind to their enemies. There is no mention of the need for people to have forgiveness and love toward those who have done them wrong. In the Koran, angels ask for forgiveness for those on the earth. Allah, unlike the God of the Bible, is not interested in having a loving, intimate, personal relationship with human beings. Originally Posted By: TomWetmore Muhammad testified of the true God but with a flawed perception and testimony about the true God. But how could this be since, according to Muhammad, the very words were dictated by Allah through the angel Gabriel? If it occurred the way Muhammed claims, there is no room for "flawed perception and testimony." Muslims claim that since Allah dictated the Koran word for word, it is the most perfect revelation of God, far better and more reliable than the Bible. Do you dismiss what Muhammad said about the origin of the Koran? Personally I believe Muhammad's version of the events. But that brings up a problem because it would mean that God inspired the Koran in a way that God never inspired any other writing. By the way, I am not suggesting that Muhammad made up the Koran himself or that the Koran contains no truth. It does contain some truth, for sure, which is what makes it all the more deceptive. Have you studied the Qu'ran and do you believe that it was inspired by the true God? Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore We believe that the Bible gives the most reliable testimony of the true God. As Christians we need to make up our minds whether we believe the Bible teaches the truth or whether we believe the Koran does. They can't both be sources of truth because they contradict each other in major ways, as I've illustrated. God doesn't speak out of both sides of His mouth at once, but that is what He must have done if we say that both the Koran and the Bible are from the same God. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 22, 2011 Administrators Share Posted June 22, 2011 You are missing my point. But I could have been clearer perhaps. I do in fact dismiss Muhammad's account of the origin of the Koran. Giving God credit for many things of human origin is very common. It is not necessarily a matter of the person is lying or even that the devil was the agent of their inspiration. I think the truth is far more complicated than those simplistic conclusions of the source of the Koran. But I am also not going to dismissing his sincerity, or that of the millions of Muslims that accept the Koran as inspired. More broadly, I am of the opinion that there is some truth to be found in many of the world's religions. God created man with the instinct to seek him. To dismiss all such efforts as being the work of the devil tend to deny that God plants the seed in man. Man just does a very poor job of nurturing and tending the plant that grows from that seed of truth. I am not looking at the differences between the Koran and the Bible in order to debunk Islam. I am more inclined to compare to find the common threads of truth. We can build bridges on those to bring Muslims to truth. I think that was Nelson's intent as well. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 Those in the east prayed to Allah long before Mohammed came on the sceen. Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 I agree that there is truth in all religions. I also agree with Tom's assertion that God planted within us the desire to know Him. I am not quick to believe that Satan has inspired all false religions although I am sure he has played a role in the same way that Satan leads me to do things that are wrong. I am not sure I accept the word game of Allah just meaning God in Arabic. In 12-step groups there are people that use the group as their god and they use the same English word god as I use to describe the Holy Trinity. Some 12-steppers have even been known to make a tree or doorknob their "god" and certainly a person worshiping a doorknob cannot be said to be worshiping the same God as a Christian even though they are using the same word to describe that god. I wonder, do those like Dwight Nelson that believe Allah is the same God of the Muslims and Christians believe that the Jesus of the Ladder Day Saints is the same Jesus of the Protestants? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 22, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 22, 2011 More broadly, I am of the opinion that there is some truth to be found in many of the world's religions. Yes, of course. I have been studying the world's great religions since the 1970s. The world religions would not have the following they have if they didn't contain truths that a good part of humanity was drawn to. I myself was very interested in the Eastern religions, particularly Buddhism. As I've said too, the Qu'ran contains quite a bit of the Bible. But the problem is that it twists and perverts important aspects of the teachings of the Bible. There's a danger in thinking that one can learn truth in the false religions. The danger is that people will believe that they have enough truth in a religion so that they don't need to search for truth in the only true faith-- the faith of Jesus Christ. Consider this: how many billions of Muslims have been turned away from studying and believing the Bible and accepting Christ because of the Qu'ran and because of what Muslim leaders teach them about the Bible and Christianity? If Muhammad hadn't preached and written the Qu'ran, many of those billions would have become Christians instead of dedicated Muslims. As a result of Islam, billions of people have gone to their graves without hearing and accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ. One thing we need to realize is that there is no salvation in a religion that teaches against Christ as Lord and Savior; that teaches Christ didn't die for our sins; and that teaches against the Trinity. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stan Posted June 22, 2011 Share Posted June 22, 2011 How many billions of Christians have been turned away from studying and believing the Bible and accepting Christ because of what Pastors and because of what Christian leaders teach them about the Bible and Christianity? (not an original thought ) Quote If you receive benefit to being here please help out with expenses. https://www.paypal.me/clubadventist Administrator of a few websites like https://adventistdating.com  Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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