Dwight Nelson preaches that Alah is God!

[John317]

I do in fact dismiss Muhammad's account of the origin of the Koran. Giving God credit for many things of human origin is very common. It is not necessarily a matter of the person is lying or even that the devil was the agent of their inspiration.

Do you know how Muhammad came to make contact with the spirit in the cave? This is according to ancient Muslim accounts, which there's no reason to question. Muhammad believed at first that the spirit was evil, but when he talked to his wife and his friends and a cousin, they persuaded him that it was a good spirit and that He ought to return and make contact with it again. They told him Muhammad that he would be a great prophet and lead his people into truth. So he returned to the cave and there made contact again with the spirit, who identified himself as the angel Gabriel sent from God. Then the angel commenced to dictate words to Muhammad, which he in turn memorized.

Here are the first verses that Muhammad received:

In the name of Allah, the Beneficent and Merciful.

1) Read in the name of thy Lord Who creates---

2) Creates man from a clot [of blood],

3) Read and thy Lord is most Generous,

4) Who taught by the pen,

5) Taught man what he knew not.

[John317]

For centuries the Muslim world has been almost completely closed against Christian missions and Bible workers. In some Muslim countries they will kill Christians who attempt to preach or teach Muslims the truth.

It is Satan's way of keeping people from hearing and accepting the gospel.And over the centuries, he has managed to keep billions from coming to Christ.

[Dr. Shane]

How many billions of Christians have been turned away from studying and believing the Bible and accepting Christ because of what Pastors and because of what Christian leaders teach them about the Bible and Christianity?

Probably off subject but I have began writing a booklet entitled, "Why I Hate Christianity" In the book I basically outline what is and has been wrong with apostate (aka mainstream) Christianity and I distinguish Adventism from the other sects.

Note: the purpose of the book is to give it to friends in 12-step groups that take issues with Christianity - there are many.

[John317]

This is for anyone.

It is sometimes stated that all (or most) of the 28FB can be taught from the Qur'an.

Let's start with three fundamental teachings:

Where is it taught in the Qur'an that God wants non-Jews to keep the Sabbath?

Second, where does it teach in the Qur'an that Allah saves us by his grace through faith in Jesus Christ?

Third, where does it teach in the Qur'an that Christ came from heaven to die for our sins on the cross so that sinners can be saved?

[Fausto]

I am with John here, the Qur'an basically is against the belief in Christ as God, and according to what we all know, Christ is the way, the truth and the life, no one goes to the Father but through Him!

To me that settles it! There is NO OTHER DOOR!!!!!

[skyblue888]

Here's where I have a problem with the concept that Allah and the God of the Bible are one and the same God:

If Allah was the God of Abraham, then Allah and Christ are one and the same because Christ was the God of Abraham. Therefore Yahweh and Christ and Allah are the same God. But are we to believe that Christ commanded the angel Gabriel to dictate the Qu'ran?

Muhammad and the Muslims claim that the Koran was dictated word for word by Allah. So there's no way of explaining "errors" by saying the truth got lost in the transmission or in translation. Given that understanding, it's hard to see why God would inspire Muhammad to write 37: 102 to 113. Those verses indicate that Abraham was told to sacrifice Ishmael rather than Isaac. In the Koran, Issac was clearly born after Abraham dreamed that he should sacrifice his son.

If Allah and the God of the Bible are the same, wouldn't it be right to expect the Qu'ran and the Bible to tell the same story? It comes down to the test given to us in Isaiah 8: 20: "To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them."

Right on John.

sky

[skyblue888]

I'm sorry but I'm in agreement with Pastor Nelson. I would say that he has studied into this just as much as anyone. And I don't believe he would just say something that was that far out.

Krause!!! I am shocked that you are saying this.

I listened to him for a few minutes and right away I could see through him. Did you know that this brother some years ago, in conjunction with the WCC produced a TV show "A New Noel"?

"Noel" is french for Christmas.

It was very ecumenical in spirit.

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

I think you are mixing up the testimony of the witness with the object of the testimony.

Is the God of the OT the same as the God of the NT? Their descriptions and actions seem quite different. Does that establish different gods or different perceptions by different witnesses of the same God?

The NT does not contradict the Old Testament in any substantive way. There's really perfect harmony between the Testaments. The New Testament is the fulfilment of the Old. One cannot really say that the Koran is the fulfillment of the Old Testament or of the New.

The apparent difference between the God of the OT and the God of the New can easily be explained. But even so, the differences aren't the same as the differences between the God of the Koran and the God of the Bible. There are many major contradictions between the Koran and the Bible.

For example, the God of the Koran forgives all sins without any shedding of blood, and He tells Muhammad that Jesus didn't die on the cross. The Koran also firmly opposes the doctrine of the Trinity, and claims that Allah never had a son. Allah portrays Himself as a solitary God, alone in the universe. Yahweh is also the only God in the universe, but the difference is that Yahweh is three Persons: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.

The Koran also teaches that the Bible predicted the coming of Muhammad. It teaches that the Holy Spirit is angels and that the Comforter is Muhammad.

Another way in which the Koran contradicts the Bible is the Koran teaches there will be sex and marriage in heaven. People will have menservants in heaven. People who do battle for Allah are rewarded with heaven and with virgins, etc.

It teaches that Allah's servants should not be kind to their enemies. There is no mention of the need for people to have forgiveness and love toward those who have done them wrong.

In the Koran, angels ask for forgiveness for those on the earth.

Allah, unlike the God of the Bible, is not interested in having a loving, intimate, personal relationship with human beings.

Originally Posted By: TomWetmore

Muhammad testified of the true God but with a flawed perception and testimony about the true God.

But how could this be since, according to Muhammad, the very words were dictated by Allah through the angel Gabriel? If it occurred the way Muhammed claims, there is no room for "flawed perception and testimony." Muslims claim that since Allah dictated the Koran word for word, it is the most perfect revelation of God, far better and more reliable than the Bible.

Do you dismiss what Muhammad said about the origin of the Koran? Personally I believe Muhammad's version of the events. But that brings up a problem because it would mean that God inspired the Koran in a way that God never inspired any other writing.

By the way, I am not suggesting that Muhammad made up the Koran himself or that the Koran contains no truth. It does contain some truth, for sure, which is what makes it all the more deceptive.

Have you studied the Qu'ran and do you believe that it was inspired by the true God?

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

We believe that the Bible gives the most reliable testimony of the true God.

As Christians we need to make up our minds whether we believe the Bible teaches the truth or whether we believe the Koran does. They can't both be sources of truth because they contradict each other in major ways, as I've illustrated. God doesn't speak out of both sides of His mouth at once, but that is what He must have done if we say that both the Koran and the Bible are from the same God.

I agree.

sky

[skyblue888]

I am with John here, the Qur'an basically is against the belief in Christ as God, and according to what we all know, Christ is the way, the truth and the life, no one goes to the Father but through Him!

To me that settles it! There is NO OTHER DOOR!!!!!

I second that.

sky

[skyblue888]

The muslim world is part of what the Bible identifies as "the dark corners of the earth" where "Darkness covers the earth and gross darkness the people."

Of course that includes also most of Christendom as the Bible identifies it as Babylon. Much spiritual darkness there as well.

sky

[John317]

...I am not looking at the differences between the Koran and the Bible in order to debunk Islam. I am more inclined to compare to find the common threads of truth. We can build bridges on those to bring Muslims to truth. I think that was

Nelson's intent as well.

It's not a matter of debunking Islam. It is a matter of finding and telling the truth. What is the truth about this topic? Are both books inspired by the same God?

Aren't we warned in both the Bible and in the SOP against surrendering truth (or downplaying it) in favor of being in harmony with those who teach false doctrines?

Is the Koran, in your view, merely a human product? Or did either God or God's enemy have something to do with its origins?

I understand completely the idea of trying to find common threads "of truth" between the various religions. And as I said before, there are some truths in all religions. I study and read a lot in Greek mythology and in all the world's religions, but that doesn't mean that I put blinders on and think that those religions are "true" in the sense of being revelations from God. All of them contain some truth, yes, but they also contain a lot of dangerous error. If we can't see that and aren't willing to concede this, then we are losing our way as Seventh-day Adventist Christians. Either that or we don't understand what those false religions teach and believe.

Building brides and finding common ground is one thing, but it is something totally different to teach people that Allah is the same God as Yahweh and that both books were inspired by the Living God. My point is that we shouldn't allow politics or the desire for "peace" with Muslims to make us change our theology or our willingness to tell the truth.

When I talk with Muslims, I don't begin by telling them I believe the Koran teaches a lot of false doctrines, but neither do I lie and tell them I believe it is a wonderful book from God. It is not. I have read it many times and I continue to read it-- all for the purpose of being able to talk to Muslims and lead them to the truth of the gospel of Christ. You can't do that by telling them that they have the truth in their Koran. If the Koran teaches the truth, why should they leave it to go to the Bible?

I don't spend my time with them putting down the Koran. What I do is build up the Bible, epecially Bible prophecy and the Gospels. We have more in common with the Muslims than perhaps any other Christian group. For instance, our common views on health and on good, clean, moral living. We both have high moral standards and are opposed to drinking alcohol and fornication, etc. But all this doesn't make it necessary for us to to believe and teach that the Allah as portrayed in the Qur'an is Christ and Yahweh.

[skyblue888]

Again, well said, John. I find your posts on this topic very informative and relevant. Whenever I hear adventists talking about "building bridges," I cannot help but think of what is said in The Great Controversy (444) when describing the ecumenical movement because that is what the ecumenical movement is all about, building bridges, reaching across the gulf that separates us from the churches or relgions that constitute Babylon. Of course all these churches and religions have some truth. The devil is clever enough to mix some truth with the poison of error. It's okay to want to know what we have in common with other churches or religions but I am afraid that, today, the reason behind the desire to find "common grounds" is to bring all churches and religions together and call that the unity for which Christ prayed. The aim of the ecumenical movement is to unite all churches and religions on the basis of common points of doctrine, "to secure such a union, the discussion of subjects which all were not agreed--however important they might be from a Bible standpoint--must necessarily be waived." G.C.444.

We know that this movement has been around for many decades and it will succeed. "And what do we see just ahead? Another general council! a world's convention! Evangelical alliance, and universal creed! When this shall be gained, then, in the effort to secure complete uniformity, it will be only a step to the resort of force." G.C.444,445.

sky

[Fausto]

Whenever I have talked with Muslims on a religious subject, was always trying to find common ground, but there are parts where one can't and it makes it difficult, because Christ does not aloow any other God to take His place!

They do find prophecy very rewarding to listen to, and unfortunately no other religion contains prophecy as sure as the bible does, that also is a mark of truth in my opinion! After all, rev 12:17 does say the true people of God keep His commandments and have the Faith of Jesus, which we all know from Rev 19:10 that it is the spirit of prophecy, to me this means the entire biblical prophetical writings culminating in sister White's books as they too point to one source.

[Guest]

Amen Fausto!

[John317]

Speaking of prophecy, the Koran contains almost no prophecy, and what prophecy it does contain is copied from the Bible. I think that in itself is mighty interesting. I see the lack of true predictive prophecy as strong evidence that the book is not of God. Isaiah 40-45 teaches that genuine predictive prophecy is something God uses to prove His Lordship. Jehovah challenges the false gods (ie., false religions) to prove they can truly predict the future.

[Fausto]

Speaking of prophecy, the Koran contains almost no prophecy, and what prophecy it does contain is copied from the Bible. I think that in itself is mighty interesting. I see the lack of true predictive prophecy as strong evidence that the book is not of God. Isaiah 40-45 teaches that genuine predictive prophecy is something God uses to prove His Lordship. Jehovah challenges the false gods (ie., false religions) to prove they can truly predict the future.

Exactly my point! Thanks for confirming that!

[John317]

Consider this: how many billions of Muslims have been turned away from studying and believing the Bible and accepting Christ because of the Qu'ran and because of what Muslim leaders teach them about the Bible and Christianity?

Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen

How many billions of Christians have been turned away from studying and believing the Bible and accepting Christ because of what Pastors and because of what Christian leaders teach them about the Bible and Christianity?

No one can deny that there have been many Christians who've been deceived by other Christians, but is that comparable to Christianity and the Bible being prohibited in a whole section of the world and to people being threatened with death for converting to Christianity? I believe that if the Koran didn't exist, most of the billions of people down through the centuries who converted to Islam would have converted to Christianity instead of believing the false teachings of the Koran, which includes the idea that Christ is not God and that He didn't die for their sins.

[skyblue888]

True.

sky

[Overaged]

Exactly my point! I disagree with his views and what's more it is being said from the pulpit that amounts to apostasy from my point of view!

Nevertheless you have a point! One can never argue to the point that you loose the witness you are trying to convey, so it goes with catholics, Muslims and other faiths who don't believe as we do, God however is very specific when pointing out right from wrong, and so we have to be careful not to get ecumenical which is not God's view at all!

He stands alone, He alone is the God of the Universe, Allah is but a idol to the moon god, even if the name itself really means God! The muslim's symbol is Baal-Hadad.

See also Baal Hadad

Unfortunately; along with many others in the past, who have critisized the church; you have used a video that just shows a small portion of Nelson's sermon here to "prove" what you say he teaches. I wonder how his message would sound could we read/hear the whole thing.

Is he really saying what you allege? Is he really staying away from confronting that which we do not have in common with Muslims or Catholics?

I am really getting tired of such topics, and people who keep pushing such wanton agendas.

[skyblue888]

When was the last time you had a reality check overaged as to where this church is going? If you had lived in Christ's day, how would Christ and His disciples have sounded to you if you had been a devoted Jew and very supportive of the church and its leadership?

sky

[Tom Wetmore]

No less baffling than to those who were not a part of it and who stood pointing boney fingers of accusation against it. Not even Jesus own disciples got it until he was finished with his mission.

[Overaged]

You gave me that Blessed Papal diatribe just because I asked for a complete picture/evidence?

[phkrause]

Unfortunately; along with many others in the past, who have critisized the church; you have used a video that just shows a small portion of Nelson's sermon here to "prove" what you say he teaches. I wonder how his message would sound could we read/hear the whole thing.

Is he really saying what you allege? Is he really staying away from confronting that which we do not have in common with Muslims or Catholics?

I am really getting tired of such topics, and people who keep pushing such wanton agendas.

I agree OA, I actually watched that program, and most are taking what he said out of context. Just picking a few little words out and not hearing the reason why he says what he says. He's really not preaching that Allah as the Koran teaches is God. Hes saying that the name Allah is the same as God, and if most would actually have seen the sermon they would've heard that. He also said in that sermon that the name Allah is much closer to the Hebrew name Yahweh than our word God. Again we need to look at the context. And on top of all that he's also basing this on another theologians words. Can't remember who it was that he was in a sense quoting. Its to bad I didn't record the sermon, its been a while. Anyway that's what I got out of his sermon.

[Overaged]

I agree OA, I actually watched that program, and most are taking what he said out of context. Just picking a few little words out and not hearing the reason why he says what he says. He's really not preaching that Allah as the Koran teaches is God. Hes saying that the name Allah is the same as God, and if most would actually have seen the sermon they would've heard that. He also said in that sermon that the name Allah is much closer to the Hebrew name Yahweh than our word God. Again we need to look at the context. And on top of all that he's also basing this on another theologians words. Can't remember who it was that he was in a sense quoting. Its to bad I didn't record the sermon, its been a while. Anyway that's what I got out of his sermon.

I know someone in the USA who knows Pastor Nelson, and so I know a lot about him and his general tone, and message content. What he is being accused of here is outrageous because of the isolated context with which such a small excerpt of the sermon in question is being twisted into deliberate lies to suit a very satanic agenda. I agree; watching the whole sermon in question would show that he was not preaching something like his detractors have tried to bamboozle us with.

[Fausto]

I've often sat thinking about that, perhaps if one could watch the entire sermon, one could see what he's actually speaking about.

After all this was sent to me by someone from the ALF.