bonnie Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 gays should have the right to marry and divorce and marry and divorce but not to exceed the number of heterosexual counterparts marriages Are you suggesting that as long as the divorce rate for heterosexuals is high it provides a reason to make gay "marriage" the norm and legal? That would make as much sense as saying I can have two husbands because marriages that have only one spouse fail Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parade Orange Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 BONNIE DO U SEE THE WINKIE WINKIE!? when someone has rancor in their heart toward someone they look for any and all thing to blast them Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelly Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Originally Posted By: Parade Orange gays should have the right to marry and divorce and marry and divorce but not to exceed the number of heterosexual counterparts marriages Are you suggesting that as long as the divorce rate for heterosexuals is high it provides a reason to make gay "marriage" the norm and legal? That would make as much sense as saying I can have two husbands because marriages that have only one spouse fail No. I was just trying to wrap my head around your statistics and reasoning. We have very few statistics on gay marriages because it is not leagal in most of the USA so there is no way of knowing if they will or will not last. Also, one of the reasons you gave for not allowing gay marriage is because they do not last. We might as well not allow anyone to get marrried-marriage in general in this day and age has at best a 50/50 chance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 BONNIE DO U SEE THE WINKIE WINKIE!? when someone has rancor in their heart toward someone they look for any and all thing to blast them I wasn't blasting you,I asked you a question based on your "blasting heterosexual marriages" Looking for any and all was simply a question based on your remarks Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Quote: Are you suggesting that as long as the divorce rate for heterosexuals is high it provides a reason to make gay "marriage" the norm and legal? That would make as much sense as saying I can have two husbands because marriages that have only one spouse fail Quote: No. I was just trying to wrap my head around your statistics and reasoning. We have very few statistics on gay marriages because it is not leagal in most of the USA so there is no way of knowing if they will or will not last. Also, one of the reasons you gave for not allowing gay marriage is because they do not last. We might as well not allow anyone to get marrried-marriage in general in this day and age has at best a 50/50 chance. You are quite wrong,I did not give any statistics. I really don't care what the stats are on so called gay marriage. Whether they last or not is quite beside the point. I did not give as a reason for not allowing gay marriage is they don't last. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelly Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Your right Bonnie, my reply was for Shane and not you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 How do we know how long gay marriages last[?] There have been studies done in the Netherlands where gay marriage is legal. There have also been studies done just to discover how long gay couples stay together (even without being legally married). Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 one of the reasons you gave for not allowing gay marriage is because they do not last. No, the reason the length of gay marriage enters into the discussion is because of immigration. A person can bring a foreign national here to marry and after being married for two years, they can divorce and bring another foreign national here. Given that the average heterosexual marriage is well above the 11-year mark, that really limits the number of foreign nationals the average heterosexual will bring into the country over their life time. However the gay lifestyle is not the same. It is well documented that gays (males more so than females) have more sexual partners than straights. Thus a gay person could bring a gay foreign national here for marriage every two years. During a gay person's lifetime, they could easily bring 15 to 20 other gays into the country. And there is of course the mushroom effect as the gay foreign nationals bring in still other gay foreign nationals. The nation could easily become a national San Francisco within a generation. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelly Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Immigration even with marriage isn't that easy. A SDA member at mt chuch had to wait 2 years for his wife to be allowed in the country. If the average gay relationship only last 2 years we have nothing to worry about. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Your friend didn't follow the law. That complicated matters. Of course, depending on the country the waiting time is different. The biggest mistake made is marrying the person first in the foreign country. That complicates things a lot. It took me about six months to get my wife a fiancee visa. The whole gay marriage issue is about immigration. That is the big prize. Civil unions won't allow gays to immigrate into the US. Marriage will. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parade Orange Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 thanku Shane would u want to share other diffrences between civil unions and gay marriages? since many say WHY CANT THEY JUST BE HAPPY WITH CIVIL UNIONS ! btw its different in each state and cities and counties as well as the private sector and unions and federal or local protection regarding their employees partners and.... taxes insurance inheritance (with no will found) adopting education Social Security social, family, cultural recognition/respect criminal/court/civil rights and proceedings and due process etc besides as SHANE brought out his big buga boo IMMIGRATION Civil Unions come awfully short like crumbs from a table Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
shelly Posted June 29, 2011 Share Posted June 29, 2011 Your friend didn't follow the law. That complicated matters. Of course, depending on the country the waiting time is different. The biggest mistake made is marrying the person first in the foreign country. That complicates things a lot. It took me about six months to get my wife a fiancee visa. The whole gay marriage issue is about immigration. That is the big prize. Civil unions won't allow gays to immigrate into the US. Marriage will. They did follow the law-just got married around 9/11. This slowed down the process. His parents were immagrants and so was alot of his family. I highly doubt he didn't follow the procedure. I am glad it didn't take as long for you to get your spouse over here. It was hard on them being married almost 3 years when they finally got to live together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parade Orange Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 hypersensitivity? HIS creation has every right to be loved and nutured and affirmed growing up and GOD put that in us to want and desire those things gays are not less than human is my point SHANE mirror back to me what im posting there is something wrong with this picture of your LOVE to GOD and LOVE to OTHERS never mind GOD bless u! my buddy is visiting hearing the bantor back and forth on this thread and getting very frustrated with the people here not hearing me and the hearts cry and said to me WHY DO I EVEN TRY? i am expressing hope in christians GRACE but it looks foolish to him Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 They did follow the law... If they got married in another country, they were not following the guidelines. INS or now DHS, doesn't like that. They want people married here. That is why they issue fiancee visas. The key is to get a lawyer first before doing anything and let the lawyer guide the whole process. A lot of people just do their own thing and try to fix it later. They go to the back of the line and the process takes a long time. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 thanku Shanewould u want to share other differences between civil unions and gay marriages? I am not aware there is any civil union laws on the federal level. So no differences have been defined as of this date. Civil unions currently exist on a state level. If gay marriage remains banned at a federal level (I doubt it will) and civil unions are recognized, Congress would have to decide if civil unions would have the same immigration rights as marriages. Immigration law is not based on what is *fair*. It is based on what is best for society. For example, someone in Mexico may apply to immigrate to the US and be on a waiting list for five years. A girl that gets engaged to a US citizen is moved to the front of the list and waits only a few months. That is hardly *fair* but is done because preference is given to the family structure. The question before Congress would be if opening the flood gates of immigration for gays to flow in by the hundreds of thousands would be best for society. The legal differences between marriage and civil unions are and will always be defined by the law. If the law decides there should be no differences, than there will be none. If the law decides to make differences, then there will be. As I have stated before, I believe the rise of acceptance of homosexuality is a fulfillment of prophecy. We are becoming an anything-goes society and that is also permeating the church. Shall we stand against this? Of course. But we should also bare in mind that we are on the losing side. Wickedness will prevail before Jesus returns. The good news is that when He does return, we are going home. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 hypersensitivity? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parade Orange Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 my buddy reiterates with me this is foolish to keep trying he sees what i go thru here Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 I don't know where you are at emotionally or spiritually, Parade, so it is hard for me to know exactly how best to connect. Plus, this text-based media doesn't make it any easier. You say that when you share that you are a celibate gay with committed Christians they look down on you and treat you like you are less than human or at least less than they are. That type of feeling is symptomatic of being hypersensitive. Even if it were true, an emotionally stable person would just blow it off. It may bother them for a few minutes but as soon as something else came to mind it would be forgotten. Not so with the hypersensitive. It gets under our skin and festers. We are still resentful toward such people long after they have forgotten such conversations and in many circumstances have even forgotten us. Sometimes they even die and we are still resentful. Imagine that, a dead man still making us angry years after he has died. We give them that power. The only thing I have found to effectively battle my hypersensitivity is too become hyperforgiving. Every time I feel someone is doing me wrong, I need to aggressively forgive them. It is a process that I have to practice and the peace it brings... Oh the peace it brings... I know serenity. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parade Orange Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 i dont think u heard a word i said thats not my point its ok Quote All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted June 30, 2011 Administrators Share Posted June 30, 2011 ... Thus a gay person could bring a gay foreign national here for marriage every two years. During a gay person's lifetime, they could easily bring 15 to 20 other gays into the country. And there is of course the mushroom effect as the gay foreign nationals bring in still other gay foreign nationals. The nation could easily become a national San Francisco within a generation. The fallacy of this rather silly red herring of an argument is that it would never happen. The very same scam could be possible for heterosexuals right now. How many heterosexual international serial marriages happen now? How many successfully import one spouse after another? 15-20?!?!? Yeah right!! THat is utterly ludicrous speculative nonsense. You know why? Think about how this has to happen. How does someone meet potential international partners? It takes a fair bit of logistics, travel and money, not to mention luck. You know very well the level of scrutiny these marriages are subjected to by the immigration process. Do you think for a minute that after the same US citizen brings the second or third person into the country as their spouse/fiancee that Immigration wouldn't be a bit suspicious that this was just a marriage scam to get people into the country? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 How many heterosexual international serial marriages happen now? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 30, 2011 Your friend didn't follow the law. That complicated matters. Of course, depending on the country the waiting time is different. The biggest mistake made is marrying the person first in the foreign country. That complicates things a lot. This is certainly true, Shane. It is best to bring the person to the USA and then marry them. That is what I did. My wife was not really legal here for the first year of our marriage, but she did enter legally. In those days it was possible to get them a driver's license and then a social-security number, but I don't think you can do that now until they are in the country legally. After she got her SSN, we applied for a green card and she got one within a few months. That would have been impossible if we had married in Mexico. It would have taken a lot longer and been much more complicated. That was 23 years and two grown daughters ago. :-) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted June 30, 2011 Share Posted June 30, 2011 John, my lawyer told me, and I have since learned, that the quickest way to get married to a foreign national is to get them a fiancee visa. A friend of mine got engaged to a Salvadoran girl that was here already. He sent her home and had a fiancee visa for her within a few months. With a fiancee visa, the couple has 90 days to get married and once married the foreign national gets everything. After two years the couple has to show evidence they have been living together as a married couple. After that the process is done. If they get divorced, the foreign national can stay. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 30, 2011 The fallacy of this rather silly red herring of an argument is that it would never happen. The very same scam could be possible for heterosexuals right now. How many heterosexual international serial marriages happen now? How many successfully import one spouse after another? 15-20?!?!? Yeah right!! THat is utterly ludicrous speculative nonsense. But I don't think you understand Shane's point here. He is not talking about a "scam." He is talking about gays bringing in genuine multiple spouses since they don't usually remain married as long as heterosexuals. He's not saying they will have to lie about it. It is certainly true that most gay couples don't stay together as long as most straight couples. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted June 30, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 30, 2011 That's great to hear. I don't think they had such a thing available at the time I got married. I heard that if a foreign spouse gets divorced before the seventh year, they can be deported. Is that not true any more? It sounds from what you say that it isn't. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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