Does our "religious liberties" message apply to gays?

[Tom Wetmore]

Here are the countries that already allow gay marriage:

• The Netherlands (2000)

• Belgium (2003)

• Spain (2005)

• Canada (2005)

• South Africa (2006)

• Norway (2008)

• Sweden (2009)

• Portugal (2010)

• Iceland (2010)

• Argentina (2010)

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,2005678,00.html

And there are about twice that many more countries that provide same-sex couples some rights and domestic partner protections and half of those countries recognize same-sex couples for immigration purposes. - http://www.infoplease.com/world/countries/international-policies-same-sex-marriage.html

How big of an immigration problem has serial gay marriage caused these countries? Are gays flooding their borders so they can get married, over and over again? Give us some real evidence.

Let me help you get started. The number of gay marriages has decreased in the Netherlands after more than ten years of it being legal there. After an initial surge right after it was legalized, the number of gay marriages each year is about half of what it was the first year. In Canada it has been legal since 2006. Easy access, and no residency requirement to get married in Canada would seem to attract homosexuals over our Northern border. Has this caused Canada an immigration problem with serial gay marriages? If your theory held any water, droves of American gays would have all moved to Canada. Did the number of gay Canadian citizens increase? Did the number in the US decline?

[John317]

How do we know how long gay marriages last-they aren't allowed to marry in the majority of states in the US. Besides, the majority of heterosexual marriages do not last either.

Two men being married together is not the same as a man and a woman being married together, just as two men living together is not the same as a man and a woman living together. The "chemistry" is typically a lot different because the hormones and the brains are different. Two women married together is more stable and longer-lasting and more like a heterosexual marriage. Two men are more likely to have an "open relationship," especially after a few years of being together. I'm not suggesting that gay males are never faithful to each other over many years of being together, but it is less common. "Tricks" are usually OK because they aren't viewed as serious. Lesbians generally see this issue differently than males do.

[Dr. Shane]

If your theory held any water, droves of American gays would have all moved to Canada.

Maybe the fact that *droves* of American gays haven't moved to Canada is evidence that gays really don't have things too bad in the US. Obviously they would rather stay in the US where gay marriage is not a right than move to Canada where it is. I guess that tells us how important it really is to the gay community.

Of course, I think it would be a little easier for a gay American to persuade a gay Mexican to immigrate to America than it is for a Canadian to entice an American. I really think that can go without saying.

[Dr. Shane]

Let me help you get started. The number of gay marriages has decreased in the Netherlands after more than ten years of it being legal there.

What about immigrant marriages? That is really the concern. Have gay immigrant marriages decreased? It isn't surprising that gay marriages has dropped off as heterosexual behavior cannot be used to predict homosexual behavior.

[Dr. Shane]

I heard that if a foreign spouse gets divorced before the seventh year, they can be deported.

I don't know the law that well but I do have friends that have gotten divorced before the seventh year and not been deported.

[John317]

From a strictly civil, non-religious viewpoint, I favor allowing gays all the rights and privileges that straight people have. In my personal life, I love gay people and am very comfortable being with them, but I don't associate with any right now because, frankly, I am afraid they would influence me to do wrong.

I don't feel threatened at all by gay marriage. But as a Christian I could not vote to allow such marriages because I view it as the Bible views it. I don't believe gay marriage is in harmony with God's ideal and plan. Yet I do believe that gays should be allowed civil unions, and if the state decides to allow them to marry, I'm OK with it as long as churches are allowed to refuse to marry them, and as long as the law allows Christians to preach that the practice of homosexuality is a sin.

The attitude of Christians has to be "love the sinner; hate the sin," because that is Christ's way; but, sadly, it is not easy for most people to do. I would like to see this the subject of sermons in our churches-- (not about gays but about loving people and treating them with respect and dignity even while hating the sin.). Too often people, and especially young people, get the idea that if God hates the sin, is OK to ridicule and make-fun and even do bodily harm to gay people. This needs to be universally condemned in the strongest terms.

[John317]

Yes, I think they have that rule-- or at least did have it-- in order to discourage people from marriage "scams," and they probably don't do anything unless it's pretty clear that the couple never actually got married.

[Gail]

From a strictly civil, non-religious viewpoint, I favor allowing gays all the rights and privileges that straight people have. In my personal life, I love gay people and am very comfortable being with them, but I don't associate with any right now because, frankly, I am afraid they would influence me to do wrong.

I don't feel threatened at all by gay marriage. But as a Christian I could not vote to allow such marriages because I view it as the Bible views it. I don't believe gay marriage is in harmony with God's ideal and plan. Yet I do believe that gays should be allowed civil unions, and if the state decides to allow them to marry, I'm OK with it as long as churches are allowed to refuse to marry them, and as long as the law allows Christians to preach that the practice of homosexuality is a sin.

The attitude of Christians has to be "love the sinner; hate the sin," because that is Christ's way; but, sadly, it is not easy for most people to do. I would like to see this the subject of sermons in our churches-- (not about gays but about loving people and treating them with respect and dignity even while hating the sin.). Too often people, and especially young people, get the idea that if God hates the sin, is OK to ridicule and make-fun and even do bodily harm to gay people. This needs to be universally condemned in the strongest terms.

John317, I always apprciated your honesty and openness. It is refreshing!

I like what you said in the bolded part. God's love is SUCH a hard thing for us to learn to practise!

[Dr. Shane]

I know that if the person came in on a fiancee visa, after three years of marriage they are eligible to become a US citizen. Most certainly after becoming a US citizen the could not be sent back.

Of course, immigration is not my biggest concern in regard to gay marriage. It is a secondary concern. My biggest concern is the threat of gay marriage to religious liberty. Motel owners can have policies against allowing unmarried heterosexuals to rent a room together but will not be allowed to prohibit gay married couples from doing the same. I don't think renting a motel room to a gay couple would violate any Adventist belief but there are other Christians that do feel like by doing that they are enabling or even encouraging the sin.

[phkrause]

From a strictly civil, non-religious viewpoint, I favor allowing gays all the rights and privileges that straight people have. In my personal life, I love gay people and am very comfortable being with them, but I don't associate with any right now because, frankly, I am afraid they would influence me to do wrong.

I don't feel threatened at all by gay marriage. But as a Christian I could not vote to allow such marriages because I view it as the Bible views it. I don't believe gay marriage is in harmony with God's ideal and plan. Yet I do believe that gays should be allowed civil unions, and if the state decides to allow them to marry, I'm OK with it as long as churches are allowed to refuse to marry them, and as long as the law allows Christians to preach that the practice of homosexuality is a sin.

The attitude of Christians has to be "love the sinner; hate the sin," because that is Christ's way; but, sadly, it is not easy for most people to do. I would like to see this the subject of sermons in our churches-- (not about gays but about loving people and treating them with respect and dignity even while hating the sin.). Too often people, and especially young people, get the idea that if God hates the sin, is OK to ridicule and make-fun and even do bodily harm to gay people. This needs to be universally condemned in the strongest terms.

[M. T. Cross]

You know, I have read through this whole thread and one thing strikes me - all discussion of gay marriage aside - that is very disturbing.

It seems the highly touted religious liberty only applies in your eyes to Christians. You support religious liberty as long as it is for people that abide by the moral construct of your beliefs and yor system. This I find extremely sad and very frightening.

[Dr. Shane]

It seems the highly touted religious liberty only applies in your eyes to Christians. You support religious liberty as long as it is for people that abide by the moral construct of your beliefs and yor system.

I don't think that is a fair criticism of the Adventist religious liberty departments. Adventists defend religious liberty for everyone regardless their religion. What we do have to be careful about is in allowing one group liberty we don't do so at the cost of liberty for another group.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

It seems the highly touted religious liberty only applies in your eyes to Christians. You support religious liberty as long as it is for people that abide by the moral construct of your beliefs and yor system.

I don't think that is a fair criticism of the Adventist religious liberty departments. Adventists defend religious liberty for everyone regardless their religion. What we do have to be careful about is in allowing one group liberty we don't do so at the cost of liberty for another group.

On the surface I would agree. I don't think liberties should ever be handed out at the cost of other liberties. I do however fail to see how supporting non Christian religions right to follow their beliefs infinges on your right to follow yours. Many non Christian belief systems would allow for gay marriage. On that token, as a non Christian - I very much support the SDA churches right to not condone gay marriage as a marital union practiced within your faith. But to oppose it on a legal and civil level I think is a very slippery slope. You want your rights, then I think it is imperitive to allow others theres.

Honestly IMO marriage should not be put under the umbrella of a religious union anyway.

Edited to add - I think it is a fair criisism btw. Maybe not on the "official" stance of the church but on every single thing I grew up being taught as an Adventist kid.

[Dr. Shane]

Many non Christian belief systems would allow for gay marriage.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Many non Christian belief systems would allow for gay marriage.

Let's not talk in generalities. Please tell me the specific religious belief systems that allow for gay marriage. Are you talking about liberal Christian denominations?

[ClubV12]

Wait, is the gay movement crying for "religious freedom" and making marriage a fundamental doctrine of their "church"? Of course not, but IF they were, that doesn't mean they are welcome to it. Anymore than any other religion asking for some "right" that violates basic morality issues.

Shall we allow Sharia law for the Islams? Shall we tolerate religious beliefs that disallow medical intervention to the point of letting children die? That is against the law in Oregon, by the way, the parents could face murder charges as a result. There are limits to each and every group that wants some "freedom". For the gay movement, in my opinion, that "freedom" stops with marriage condoned by the State.

I don't have a problem with that any more than I do denying Sharia law to Islamics.

[Parade Orange]

The attitude of Christians has to be "love the sinner; hate the sin," because that is Christ's way; but, sadly, it is not easy for most people to do. I would like to see this the subject of sermons in our churches-- (not about gays but about loving people and treating them with respect and dignity even while hating the sin.). Too often people, and especially young people, get the idea that if God hates the sin, is OK to ridicule and make-fun and even do bodily harm to gay people. This needs to be universally condemned in the strongest terms.

[Parade Orange]

thru the years in papers and mags and in chatrooms and blogs and forums i hear the same old nonsensical question

WHY TELL EVERYONE YOUR GAY?

WHY MUST YOU THROW IT IN OUR FACES?

and the ever popular declaration

WE DONT FORCE OUR HETEROSEXUALITY ON YOU!

which is a statement that dont make sense to homos in this world

up until very recently gays were jokes or objects of repulsion and or fear and terror in movies and television and music and commercials

GAYS LOOK AROUND AND SEE ...

man and woman coupling were and are held up in all ways as the way to go

something to aspire to

proms

pinnings

courtship

singles bar

dear abby advice

family

bible

church settings

family pictures in cubicles

engagement rings are showed off

friendly gossip in beauty parlors of who is dating who

porch swings

serenades

pin ups in WW2

and getting married to the girl next door when i come back from the war

family reunions

weddings

divorces

child support

alimony

heterosexuality is the norm and spoken of gladly in all circles of nations.religions.cults ect

gays grow up with it

its everywhere

it is expected on gays at grocery lines and bus stops and ice cream functions

everywhere u go u might see a boy and girl hugging or holding hands or kissing

airports and parks and in back alleys

they see it in their own homes [most]

its common and mostly good

parents and children [that heterosexuals made during heterosexual sex- i'll spare u the details] sitting in resturants together

its everywhere

its woven in our world since the beginning of time

its set up like that

heterosexuality is the way the world tics

forced is not quite the word i should use

HETEROSEXUALITY IS EXPECTED on gays

and are groomed for

parents dreams for their boys to marry a nice girls or their girl to marry a nice boy and have grandchildren

yes HETEROSEXUALS DO FORCE THEIR SEXUALITY ON GAYS from the time they enter the world

and i understand that and get that and grew up with that

its not a bad thing

GOD ORDAINED IT

im just saying that statement is wrong on all levels

so maybe just maybe it wont be said again lol

[ClubV12]

An interesting insight into a lifestyle I don't know much about, Parade Orange. I had never thought about how society essentially "forces" a heterosexual lifestyle on gays.

...not thats theres anything wrong with that...

I do say that in a more loving and understanding way than I would have said it yesterday.

[Parade Orange]

now WHY MUST YOU TELL EVERYONE YOUR GAY

and the ever popular

WHY MUST YOU THROW IT IN OUR FACES

i will address the latter first

when i was 16 or so i was reading a playboy magazine and in the back they had a society pictorial of outragouse going ons with celebs and studio 54 and all that and came across a picture of a man with a smirk on his face with a button on his disco shirt saying 'HOW DARE U ASSUME IM A HETEROSEXUAL'

i was shocked!

was he actually gay?

ive never seen a gay man before

and there he was!

why go around in public like that?

he was going to get murdered

when i was a teen -gay bashing and cow tipping became the rage

it just depends where u lived

when i was a closeted homo in love and on fire for JESUS in my early 20's i remember

ladys wanting to set me up with nice christian girls

and christian men who dont know how to relate to other men [which is most of them yeeeccchhh]..

would side up with me and point out pretty girls and say something along the lines of being on earth as sheer objects or cooks

i crawled deeper inside my black hole fearing they will see me

and thinking of that button

at that time i found a pair of sunglasses that had red plastic bold frames

not conservative brick red

not orange red

not brownish red

but im a prostitute red

and i gleefully put them on forgetting that im a christian heterosexual sabbath school teacher coleporteur deacon head of the church socials man

i subconsciencly wanted to scream im not straight!

ive been living a lie for 10 years by that time and the burden kept getting heavier and heavier and the expectations were closing in on me

i lived in a black hole inside

and in my heart i knew GOD hated me

HOW DO YOU ASSUME IM A HETEROSEXUAL

its normal and everywhere and expected but it was a lie

i lied when i talked to lil old ladies at church about hopefully meeting a nice girl someday when they would inquire at fellowship dinner

i lied when asked bodly by my aunt and biblebook customers

i lied when i played truth or dare at colledge

all i did was lie

some knew! they can see it

my friends and family knows im not a liar

they always knew if they wanted the truth they can ask me and get to the bottom of matters

my brother lied and i hated it

and now here i am a christian man in love with JESUS cause of the book DESIRE OF AGES

i pushed that book everywhere i went

and i lied thru my teeth

i remember getting SDA materials by COLIN COOK at that time [i secretly got it sent to another address so no one will know] called HOW TO OVERCOME HOMOSEXUALITY and the very first tape said to reach out and get a group support of other christians to meet with

yikkes

well i knew that wasnt going to happen

no one could know!

i cant go to anyone with this

i see how they talk about gays

i wasnt going to subject myself to them anymore than i have to

BTW U silly peeps WHEN U TALK NASTY ABOUT HOMOS U MIGHT BE TALKING TO A REAL CLOSET CASE THAT TAKES NOTE WHATS IN YOUR HEART

repent!

so anyway after living a double life i had to be honest and i told people I AM GAY

and stopped apologizing for it

and it can be taken as THROWING IT IN THEIR FACES

red plastic bold sunglasses and all

[Parade Orange]

WHY MUST YOU TELL EVERYONE YOUR GAY?

my mom is in denial

she would read her book in the living room

the book was not in her lap

the book was infront of her face

hiding her face from me

while my father would beat me with whatever he can find

if he found a golfclub nearby he used it

if it was a garden hose or a shovel or a broomstick

wherever he was whatever he could grab in his fury

he would use it on me and my brother

and my mom to this day said dad never did that

she might be speaking the truth cause she held the book over her face enthralled with ellery queen or a harold robbins novel

she acted like it didnt happen

how can we disagree with that?

denial is a powerful thing

my family of orgin should have a parade around it every year cause its a sin that helps them over the tuff/unpleasant times

its also a CHRISTIAN VIRTUE according to a few here

WHY MUST U COME OUT OF THE CLOSET?

WHY MUST YOU TELL EVERYONE YOUR GAY?

WHY CANT YOU SHUT UP ABOUT IT?

ahhh the other christian virtue

DONT TALK ABOUT IT CAUSE IT MAKES ME FEEL UNCOMFORTABLE

there was this gay guy going to PUC and involved with the THEATER MINISTRY sharing parables and bible stories on the stage

he was terribly nancy

in fact ..almost nellie

and quite mary

..if u ask me

and he wasnt involved in the gay world

he was in the christian world

doing christian things

he loved JESUS

but

BUT

he was gay!

and the other kids pressured him into admitting it

cause he walked and talked like a duck

how can he lie any longer

he told them

they kicked him out

cause he looked gay and even worse he admitted it and it would tarnish their theatrical ministry

they did it with scriptures and RIGHT on their side!

many gays in or out of the church will tell who they are now

[unlike not too long ago]

they wont be ashamed or guilted or bullied anymore over something they didnt choose

gays have had enough being called names or last chosen in sport teams in school

some mean spirited guys and girls zero on them at a young age and call them fag and queer or sissy

and such dread comes in everytime they get on the bus to go to school

some hurt themselves or lash out at others

and if they survive that!.. they might get some gumption and finally say YES IM GAY WHAT OF IT?

or the famous

WE'RE HERE WE'RE QUEER GET USED TO IT

so what many see as bolden sin is really admitting who they are and not gonna crawl in the corner anymore about it

[Parade Orange]

An interesting insight into a lifestyle I don't know much about, Parade Orange. I had never thought about how society essentially "forces" a heterosexual lifestyle on gays.

...not thats theres anything wrong with that...

I do say that in a more loving and understanding way than I would have said it yesterday.

i wish i was a wordsmith to convey to u the matter more completely

but u do understand what im saying and im glad

i feel i have to jump thru hoops to get christians to practice GRACE here

whew!

[Parade Orange]

BTW im all for heterosexuals!

give yourselves a round of applause

and pats on the back

[BobRyan]

As some of you know, New York has just passed legislation approving of gay marriage. They will now have the same civil liberties that heterosexuals have pertaining to marriage. Note: religious institutions are protected from lawsuits if they refuse to marry them or provide them with access to their infrastructures.

As the PARL(Public Affairs and Religious Liberties) director in my church, I am supporting this as a civil rights issue.

The actual Adventist RL department condemns homosexuality in all of its forms.

But we as SDAs believe in free will - such that Adam had a choice, Lucifer had a choice to make and each person today has a choice to make. Alex has made his choice to go against the R.L department that he claims to represent.

But the fact is that this is not a religious liberty issue for SDAs other than the R.L. issue of insisting on the right to enforce the Bible value of right and wrong inside our own institutions. In the 1800's we decided that the personal right to privacy concerns did not outweigh the Christian moral imperative to abolish drug abuse in the form of alcoholic beverages -- so we supported the constitutional ammendment against the sale of alcohol - as a denomination.

In the 1800's the SDA argument was not "be mean to people who get drunk". Though some may wish to spin it that way. It was a stand against drug abuse - even if that drug is alcohol. It had nothing at all to do with "be sure you do not like this person or that person". Alex may be struggling with that concept.

The same issue applies here regarding the Christian moral values that we find in the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

[hch]

WHY MUST YOU TELL EVERYONE YOUR GAY?

From the light given to me on this subject, I will make a brief comment of about 1000 pages.

Now seriously

God created us as sexual beings

Our sexuality is a gift from God that He pronounced GOOD

Read all about it in the Garden of Eden account

That being TRUE, Satan has worked to refocus

our attention from God's design to a counterfeit that seems as good

For some that is a different virgin every week

or a concubine that meets the physical wants

but one who can be cast off at any time without having to pay for a divorce

For others it is a companion endowed with the the ability to relieve the urge.

The physical expression of sexual desires outside of God's plan is detrimental

It destroys the mechanism God endowed us with to have self control plain and simple

How so?

When a man who by nature is easily aroused is sexually involved with another man who is also by nature easily aroused, they will tend to focus too much on the physical to the harm of the spiritual.

The animal passions whether in a heterosexual or gay relationship unrestrained will be the ruin of the individuals.

Would living out of God's plan in moderation make it ok?

No. When mankind devises a way to live outside of God's will, it exalts human opinion to a level equal to that or above that of God. Man's feelings, desires, wants, and opinions become as valid to the man as a thus saith the LORD. Thus man makes an idol of his opinions that are not subject to the law of God and cannot be.

Should anyone treat gay people or people living in sin with a woman or women bad because they are sinners?

No. Jesus came to save sinners. If God can save prostitutes in His kingdom and the self righteous do-gooders are cast out, there is hope for those that are plagued with temptations to indulge unrestrained desires.

The end results: Call him a gay Christian or what ever, but God will leave him (or her) to the idols of their choosing. God is not a respecter of persons and he will not compel anyone to live as he has deemed best. Free moral agents have the ability to choose to walk in the path that God has clearly established or they can blaze the path of their own choosing.

But when God gathers His children, He is looking for the obedient ones that will not cause rebellion against His authority to arise in the universe again. These individuals are not slaves to passion, they have learned to yield to Jesus and to regain self-control through the ministry of the Holy Spirit living within them,

It is such a simple test. Learn to express our sexuality in moderation within the framework designed by God or prove that God is not perfect and we can do better. Then wait and see who wins: God or man.