What Ellen White Has Written About the Godhead

[Gordon1]

Remember that Ellen White was all about bringing unity to the body of Christ, not causing it to fracture over the use of a word. The angels' message was always, "Draw closer together."

Ellen White was never Trinitarian nor would she compromise with pagan doctrine for the sake of unity. To suggest such misrepresents her message & that of the second angel warning against the wine of Babylon.

Just as the Roman Catholic Church rightly boasts that Sunday is the mark of their authority, they clearly state that the Trinity is their central doctrine, upon which all their other doctrines hang.

Ellen White dispensed plenty of rebuke to those in doctrinal error or personal apostasy, but she never corrected the church pioneers for writing and preaching against the Trinity.

Like the Ethiopian eunuch, she believed that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Acts 8:37. Here one finds the true baptismal vow.

[Gordon1]

Arius also believed that Christ was the divine Son of God.

But Catholics wrote the history books and paint him as a heretic, when his faith likely paralleled that of the apostles.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Remember that Ellen White was all about bringing unity to the body of Christ, not causing it to fracture over the use of a word. The angels' message was always, "Draw closer together."

Ellen White was never Trinitarian nor would she compromise with pagan doctrine for the sake of unity. To suggest such misrepresents her message & that of the second angel warning against the wine of Babylon.

What then do you do with Ellen White's statements as found on posts #456890 and #456891?

Let's start with the following 7:

Quote:

">>The three<powers of the Godhead<<,>the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit<, are pledged to be their strength and their efficiency in their new life in Christ Jesus."—Australian Union Conference Record, October 7, 1907.

"We are to co-operate with>the three< highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God."—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, 51 and (Evangelism, 617).

The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin."—Manuscript 145, 1901. (Evangelism, 616).

"The work of salvation is not a small matter, but so vast that the highest authorities are taken hold of by the expressed faith of the human agent. The eternal Godhead—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost—is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent."—Upward Look, 148.

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, >the three< holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome the powers of darkness. All the facilities of heaven are pledged to those who by their baptismal vows have entered into a covenant with God."—5 Bible Commentary, 1110. (Manuscript 92,1901).

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism, to receive the candidates who have renounced the world and have received Christ into the soul temple. These candidates have entered into the family of God, and their names are inscribed in the Lamb’s book of life."—6 Bible Commentary, 1075. (Manuscript 27, 1900).

"When we have accepted Christ, and in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit have pledged ourselves to serve God, the Father, Christ, and the Holy Spirit— >the three< dignitaries and powers of heaven—pledge themselves that every facility shall be given to us if we carry out our baptismal vows to "come out from among them, and be . . separate . . and touch not the unclean thing."— 6 Bible Commentary, 1075. (Manuscript 85, 1901).

Please explain to us what Ellen White is saying in each statement. Let's see your reasoning.

[John317]

Ellen White was never Trinitarian nor would she compromise with pagan doctrine for the sake of unity. To suggest such misrepresents her message & that of the second angel warning against the wine of Babylon.

Let's examine each point you raise here. First of all, you are assuming that the doctrine of the Trinity (as SDAs believe it today) originated with paganism and is referred to as the "wine of Babylon." Where is the proof of this?

Just because there are false beliefs among pagans that are similar to the doctrine of the Trinity does not prove that the Trinity is either from paganism or that it is false. It may, in fact, prove that Satan has a counterfeit for everything, including counterfeits for marriage, the Sabbath, salvation, Christ's priesthood and, yes, even the Godhead. Doesn't it stand to reason that Satan would invent such a counterfeit? I think it does.

Moreover, clear evidence can be shown that the Trinity is taught in the Scripures and in the writings of Ellen White.

Originally Posted By: Gordon1

Just as the Roman Catholic Church rightly boasts that Sunday is the mark of their authority, they clearly state that the Trinity is their central doctrine, upon which all their other doctrines hang.

Should we reject a teaching simply because it is taught by Roman Catholics? After all, Catholics do believe and teach some truth; otherwise, the error would not be deceptive. What you need to do, then, is show that the Bible does not teach the Trinity. Can you do it? Can you show that the Trinity, or "heavenly trio," is not found in Ellen G. White's writings?

You can begin by showing that the quotes in the above posts do not teach the Trinity. Please take them one at a time.

[John317]

Arius also believed that Christ was the divine Son of God.

But Catholics wrote the history books and paint him as a heretic, when his faith likely paralleled that of the apostles.

But both the Bible and Ellen White's writings show that Christ was Himself God. In fact, "Son of God," means "of the order of God." Therefore, yes, Christ is indeed the Son of God. I don't know of any Christians who would deny this. But what does Son of God mean? Does it mean that the pre-incarnate Christ was created by God the Father? Some believe so. In fact, there was a time when Uriah Smith believed Christ had been God's first creation.

Or does "Son of God" mean that Christ was literally born or "begotten" from God's Being?

What does the Bible say, and what does Ellen White have to say? Do any of these sources of authority teach clearly that Christ came out of (originated from) God's Person or Being?

[John317]

Ellen White dispensed plenty of rebuke to those in doctrinal error or personal apostasy, but she never corrected the church pioneers for writing and preaching against the Trinity.

Neither did she dispense rebuke toward those SDAs in the early 20th century who accepted and taught the Trinity. One such was a man name Wilcox, who, as editor of the Review and Herald, wrote in 1913 that the SDA church believed in the Trinity. She must have been aware of Wilcox's editorial because one of her articles was printed right next to it, and Ellen White made a habit of reading her articles after publication to make sure they were correctly published.

Not only did Ellen White not rebuke this highly regarded editor of the church's primary paper, but Ellen White about this same time appointed him to the first board of directors of the Ellen G. White Estate. I can't image Ellen White doing this if she disagreed with him on the issue of the Trinity and did not trust his judgment.

But I would like to ask you: what aspect of the Trinity doctrine (as SDAs believe it) is not found in Ellen White's writings?

[John317]

9. Why did she not rebuke the two messengers of the 1888 Message during the 1890&#146;s on their views on the Sonship of Christ, the outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the Latter Rain and Loud Cry, as they clearly differed from the Trinitarian position?

Because both of those men were changing in the direction of the Trinity. It was their emphasis on the righteousness of Christ that caused the church to begin to think of the importance of Christ's deity. Actually, the change in the church's view of the Godhead can be traced back to the 1888 Movement. E.J. Waggoner's father, J.H. Waggoner, was anti-Trinitarian and believed that Christ was inferior to the Father. The son, however, came to believe and taught that Christ is equal to the Father. E. J. Waggoner did not hide the fact that he disagreed in some significant ways with his father on the matter of the Godhead. One of these ways in which he disagreed with his father was that E.J. Waggoner gave great emphasis to the deity of Christ and His equality with the Father.

So to answer your question, E. J. Waggoner was making changes that were clearly in line with the revelations that God was showing Ellen White.

However, in 1888, Ellen White herself did not know all the truth that she would go on to learn over the next 15 or so years. Also, as said before, Ellen White was a leader, not a pusher. You can't force people to believe something they don't want to believe. A good example is what occurs on this forum. When there is great resistence, the best to do is simply present the evidence and let every man make up his own mind. So that is what our prophet of God did.

AS to A.T. Jones, he finally came to the point where he taught the doctrine of the "heavenly trio," as found in the Bible and in the Spirit of prophecy. This change on Jones' part clearly would have made any rebuke on Ellen White's part unnecessary as far as the teaching on the Godhead is concerned. She did rebuke Elder Jones on other matters, such as regarding being influenced by Dr. J.H. Kellogg, as in fact she also did with E. J. Waggoner. Both men, sadly and tragically, became disconnected from the church, but during the 1880s to about 1900, they were pioneers in the teaching of the righteousness and Deity of Christ.

[John317]

...

[skyblue888]

John, I agree with your assessment regarding the "heavenly Trio" but I do not agree with your assessment concerning Jones leaving the church; not that simple; Jones was falsely accused and tried and judged and sentenced in his absence 4,000 miles away in Switzerland by the leaders of the General Conference. It is a must to read "An Appeal" by Jones in order to know all the facts. This can be read under the forum WHAT SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE, found on page 1 or 2.

Gordon1, I am shocked and sad to see that you do not adhere to the teaching of one God in Three Persons!

Pastor Chick, you profess to hold a pure faith and your views totally disagree with the Bible and the Testimonies on the Godhead!

You also teach, correct me if I am wrong, that the SDA church is Babylon the Great that has fallen in 1988 and that the judgment of the living began that same year in the face of powerful statements from inspiration to the effect that Babylon the Great will not have fallen until her sins will have reached unto heaven which is when Sunday shall be enforced upon all through the union of church and state and that the judgment of the living, the closing work of Christ in the sanctuary above, will not take place until the mission of the Gospel shall have been completed.

sky

[John317]

John, I agree with your assessment regarding the "heavenly Trio" but I do not agree with your assessment concerning Jones leaving the church; not that simple; Jones was falsely accused and tried and judged and sentenced in his absence 4,000 miles away in Switzerland by the leaders of the General Conference. It is a must to read "An Appeal" by Jones in order to know all the facts. This can be read under the forum WHAT SEVENTH-DAY ADVENTISTS BELIEVE, found on page 1 or 2.

OK, I'm not sure we're in total agreement on this, but I do appreciate your opinion. I agree that A.T. Jones was not treated fairly.

[skyblue888]

[John317]

...Two years before this, Ellen White, speaking to the teachers in Emmanuel Missionary College in 1903, stated,

Originally Posted By: EGW

Perilous times are before us. Every one who has a knowledge of the truth should awake, and place himself, body, soul, and spirit, under the discipline of God. Wake up, brethren, wake up. The enemy is on our track. We must be wide awake, on our guard against him. We must put on the whole armor of God. We must follow the directions given in the spirit of prophecy. We must love and obey the truth for this time. This will save us from accepting strong delusions. God has spoken to us through his Word. He has spoken to us through the Testimonies to the church, and through the books that have helped to make plain our present duty and the position that we should now occupy. The warnings that have been given, line upon line, precept upon precept, should be heeded. If we disregard them, what excuse shall we offer?

What was it that Ellen White was warning about?

She continued;

Originally Posted By: EGW

The new theories in regard to God and Christ, as brought out in The Living Temple are not in harmony with the teaching of Christ. The Lord Jesus came to this world to represent the Father. He did not represent God as an essence pervading nature, but as a personal being. Christians should bear in mind that God has a personality as verily as has Christ. - SPM p324. (1903)

Here we see that Ellen White was warning aboutnew theories in regard to God and Christ that were making their way into the church. Repeatedly, Ellen White sounded the warnings not to make God, or Christ, non-entities by blending their personalities.

She said in 1905;

Originally Posted By: EGW

And truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ. All through the Scriptures, the Father and the Son are spoken of as two distinct personages. You will hear men endeavoring to make the Son of God a nonentity. He and the Father are one, but they are two personages. Wrong sentiments regarding this are coming in, and we shall all have to meet them. R & H. 13-7-1905.

Ellen White could see that there was a problem. But what was she referring to? What was it we would all have to meet We now know that it entered the Church through the writings of J.H. Kellogg, and it did not end there.

None of the above has anything to do with the Trinity doctrine as the Seventh-day Adventist Church believe and teaches it today. If you believe it does, please show the direct connection.

J.H. Kellogg didn't teach the Trinity that SDAs accept and believe in. We don't believe the theories that Ellen White wrote against. We believe that the Father and the Son are two distinct personages and we don't make the Son of God a nonentity. We don't blend their personalities. Therefore it is clear that what Ellen White was warning against was not what the church teaches today. Every point of the SDA doctrine of the Trinity can be shown to be in harmony with both the Bible and Ellen White's statements on the subject.

If you believe this last point is untrue, please show which part of our doctrine on the Trinity is not supported by Ellen White or the Bible.

[John317]

1. Why is there no record of a vision or dream from the Lord telling Ellen White to change her views, and to correct the views of the denomination to accept the trinity doctrine?

Interesting and worth-while questions here. The answers are fairly simple, although the issues are complex.

As to # 1--- God did in fact give Ellen White visions or dreams to bring her and the church to a correct understanding of the Godhead. For instance, see EW page 77 par. 2,3; page 54 par. 2. The fact is that everything Ellen White wrote on the topic of the Godhead, or the "heavenly trio," was based on God's revelation to her. Ellen White did NOT write her opinions for the church. For instance, we can be sure that all of her statements included in Evangelism, pages 614-617, is the result of what God showed Ellen White. In fact, I have about 5 pages of quotes from Ellen White on the Godhead, and these are only a small number of the important statements she made during her lifetime about what God has shown her concerning this topic.

Consider the following quotes from Ellen White:

Quote:

The Father and the Son each have a personality... Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God... there never was a time when when [Christ] was not in close fellowship with the Eternal God... [Christ] was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent... [Christ] is the eternal, self-existent Son....[Christ] had [for]ever stood at the right hand of the Father... Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense... It was Christ who from the bush on Mount Horeb spoke to Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM'.... [Christ] had announced Himself to be the self-existent One...The Holy Spirit is a person... The Holy Spirit has a personality... the Holy Spirit..is as much a person as God is a person... He must also be a divine person... The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead... The three great powers of heaven are working... The three great powers in heaven are witnesses; they are invisible but present... The eternal heavenly dignitaries-- God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit-- arming thems [the disciples] with more than mortal energy,.. would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men.... We are to cooperate with the three highest powers in heaven,-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,-- and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are pledged to cooperate with sanctified human instrumentalities... The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption...The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism to receive the candidates who have renounced the world... The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight... The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested... The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead...In whose name are we baptized? In the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost-- the three highest powers in the heavenly courts. They pledge themselves in our behalf... You went down into the water in the name of the three great Worthies in heaven-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit... There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven...You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest Beings in heaven who are able to keep you from falling...When I feel oppressed and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, i just call upon the three great worthies....

QUESTION: Can anyone honestly say that the prophet of God has not given us enough evidence and clarified the issues in regard to the Godhead? The above quotes are only a part of what she's told us about the nature of God.

Is it God's fault if people refuse to accept the statements made by His prophet?

Please show the lack of clarity in the above statements? Is there anything missing? What more does she need to've said in order for you to accept the teachings of the SDA church in regard to the Godhead?

[John317]

2. As the prophetess to the last-days remnant church, wouldn't she have been duty bound to go to the leaders of our denomination at the time, and explain to them their error? Why did she not call a meeting of the leaders and scholars of the church at the time and do this? There is no record of such a meeting.

3. Why did she not write private testimonies to any of the leaders of the Church, clarifying the necessity to change to Trinitarianism? To allow people to continue to believe and teach error, and then just publish a book, and leave it to gradually change the mind of whoever might read it, without even saying to anybody we were wrong on this matter was that Ellen White's way?

As to #2 & #3--- the work of Ellen White was not to change people's doctrinal views by directly telling them what the correct doctrine is and that they must believe her interpretation. Her mission was to direct the people to the Bible in order to study and find the truth under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. She points us to the Bible, where the truth of God is found.

Are you familiar with the Sabbath Bible Conferences of 1849, 1850? A study of them will reveal the relationship between Ellen White and the study of Bible doctrine. God first wanted people to get the truth out of His word, and then for Ellen White to validate what they had found in the Bible. This is what occurred in the instance of the Trinity doctrine. It is based on the Bible but is clearly supported by Ellen White.

Your question makes me recall a statement Ellen White wrote which was to the effect that if people don't accept the truth that she had preached and written about for so many years, they won't accept it through argument or debate.

Please review the statements about the Godhead that I quoted in the previous post. How can anyone misunderstand what she said?

[Pastor_Chick]

[...]

Please review the statements about the Godhead that I quoted in the previous post. How can anyone misunderstand what she said?

John,

Thank you for taking much of your time to try and answer some of Brother Blair's questions.

For now, I will answer your question to me with the following letter from W. C. White:

[Pastor_Chick]

In the 1935 letter posted above, W. C. White refers to Desire of Ages, page 669.

Before this the Spirit had been in the world; from the very beginning of the work of redemption He had been moving upon men's hearts. But while Christ was on earth, the disciples had desired no other helper. Not until they were deprived of His presence would they feel their need of the Spirit, and then He would come. The Holy Spirit is Christ's representative, but divested of the personality of humanity, and independent thereof. Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally. Therefore it was for their interest that He should go to the Father, and send the Spirit to be His successor on earth. No one could then have any advantage because of his location or his personal contact with Christ. By the Spirit the Saviour would be accessible to all. In this sense He would be nearer to them than if He had not ascended on high. (DA 669)

[John317]

Thanks for posting W.C. White's letter of April 30. I have seen it before (at the White Estate) and am glad to read it again.

It cannot and does not change what Ellen White wrote and said. What the letter really shows is that Ellen White did not discuss the Godhead with members of her family and that W.C. White did not have a good grasp or comprehension of what Mrs. White believed and taught about the Godhead. Ellen White didn't argue or discuss these things with people, but she preached it and wrote. She said that if people didn't accept the truth on the basis of her preaching and writing, arguing and debating it wouldn't do any good anyway.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: EGW

(Written February 18 and 19, 1895, at "Norfolk Villa," Prospect Street, Granville, N.S.W. Part of the manuscript appears to be a letter, but we do not know to whom the letter was addressed. Part seems to be entries in Ellen White's diary.)

Although our Lord ascended from earth to heaven, the Holy Spirit was appointed as His representative among men. "If ye love Me, keep My commandments. And I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another Comforter, that He may abide with you forever; even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth Him not, neither knoweth Him: but ye know Him; for He dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless" [John 14:15-18]. Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent. "But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall [although unseen by you],[* THIS PHRASE WAS ADDED BY ELLEN WHITE.] teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you" [John 14:26]. (14MR 23)

Notice that the Holy Spirit is a person as much as God is a person and as much as Christ is a person. And the Holy Spirit is a person distinct from either God the Father and the Son. To quote Ellen White, "The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead." And, "there are three living persons of the heavenly trio." Ev. 615.

The Holy Spirit is not Christ, and Christ is not the Holy Spirit, and of course, neither is the Holy Spirit the Father. The Son and the Father sent the Holy Spirit to be Christ's successor on earth. If the Son and the Father sent the Holy Spirit, it should be obvious that the Son and the Father did not send themselves. Ellen White wrote that the Holy Spirit has a personality, is a person, and like Christ and the Father, the Holy Spirit is a distinct personage.

This is proved by the fact that Christ was with the Father while the Holy Spirit came to this earth. Christ was not in both places personally at the same time. Christ and the Father are with us and in us through the ministry of the Holy Spirit, who is the personal representative of Christ.

Ellen White wrote: "The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof."

Does she mean that the Holy Spirit is Christ? NO. The word "Himself" is a reflexive pronoun. It would be like saying, "The president is himself a powerful world leader." What it is saying, then, is that the Holy Spirit [unlike Christ] is divested of the personality of humanity. Not being human is an important advantage that the Holy Spirit has over Christ when it comes to the Spirit's work.

Ellen White also wrote, "He [Christ] would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent."

This means that Christ teaches us in John 14 and 16 that He is present with us by His Holy Spirit.

Notice that Ellen White and the Bible both refer to the Holy Spirit as a person, not as a thing or as a mere influence. Only a person can be a personal representative and can teach and guide people into truth.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

[...]

Please review the statements about the Godhead that I quoted in the previous post. How can anyone misunderstand what she said?

John,

Thank you for taking much of your time to try and answer some of Brother Blair's questions.

For now, I will answer your question to me with the following letter from W. C. White:

Which of the following statements by Ellen White regarding the Godhead do you believe W.C. White's letter proves to be untrue or untrustworthy? In other words, which statement(s) have you allowed W.C. White to convince you is either wrong or does not mean what it obviously does?

Quote:

The Father and the Son each have a personality... Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God... there never was a time when when [Christ] was not in close fellowship with the Eternal God... [Christ] was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent... [Christ] is the eternal, self-existent Son....[Christ] had [for]ever stood at the right hand of the Father... Christ was God essentially, and in the highest sense... It was Christ who from the bush on Mount Horeb spoke to Moses, 'I AM THAT I AM'.... [Christ] had announced Himself to be the self-existent One...The Holy Spirit is a person... The Holy Spirit has a personality... the Holy Spirit..is as much a person as God is a person... He must also be a divine person... The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the Godhead... The three great powers of heaven are working... The three great powers in heaven are witnesses; they are invisible but present... The eternal heavenly dignitaries-- God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit-- arming thems [the disciples] with more than mortal energy,.. would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men.... We are to cooperate with the three highest powers in heaven,-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,-- and these powers will work through us, making us workers together with God.... The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are pledged to cooperate with sanctified human instrumentalities... The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption...The Father, Son, and the Holy Ghost, powers infinite and omniscient, receive those who truly enter into covenant relation with God. They are present at every baptism to receive the candidates who have renounced the world... The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight... The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifested... The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead...In whose name are we baptized? In the name of the Father and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost-- the three highest powers in the heavenly courts. They pledge themselves in our behalf... You went down into the water in the name of the three great Worthies in heaven-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit... There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven...You are born unto God, and you stand under the sanction and the power of the three holiest Beings in heaven who are able to keep you from falling...When I feel oppressed and hardly know how to relate myself toward the work that God has given me to do, i just call upon the three great worthies....

[Light Fox]

John,

I don't think that's a very reasonable way of reading the material at hand. Regarding the Willie White letter, you asked how anyone could misunderstand what she wrote. When presented with the above letter from her son, you said:

...What the letter really shows is that Ellen White did not discuss the Godhead with members of her family and that W.C. White did not have a good grasp or comprehension of what Mrs. White believed and taught about the Godhead. Ellen White didn't argue or discuss these things with people, but she preached it and wrote. She said that if people didn't accept the truth on the basis of her preaching and writing, arguing and debating it wouldn't do any good anyway.

Well, either way, it's pretty clear that some people in Mrs. White's intimate inner circle could "misunderstand what she wrote." I suspect you're familiar to some extent with who Willie White was. I highly doubt "arguing and debating it" would be a close approximation of how that interaction would have played out. It seems that what you are saying is that... well, you outright said it. She "preached and wrote" about it, but it somehow remained hidden from her closest companions and relatives - including the one she placed in charge of her estate and writings.

The quote does show quite a bit more than simply that Willie didn't have a good grasp of what his mother taught about the Godhead; that's not actually what he said. What he said was regarding the "personality of the Holy Spirit" he could not give a definitive statement on what his mother taught, because it perplexed him. What he did say, however, was what he obviously understood her to not teach - the efforts of some that "perplexed him, and sometimes made him sad" by teaching the Holy Spirit was an individual as were the Father and the Son.

Obviously, "personality" vs. "individuality" were very different concepts in his mind. One he could not speak definitively on; the other was disturbing enough to cause him distress when taught.

As far as the quote from Mrs. White, that's... I'm trying not to put too fine a point on it, but that's simply not how English works. Reading the very next sentence with it:

"Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent."

What you are advocating is a switch in the subject from Christ (before the sentence) to the Holy Spirit. Okay, that much could be granted - if the letter didn't continue. Who is the "He" that begins the next sentence? By your rendition, it must be the Holy Spirit. So, "The Holy Spirit would represent Himself as present in all places by His Holy Spirit?"

No, that is not accurate. The subject was Christ before the sentence, was Christ after the sentence, and thus was Christ in the sentence itself as well. Further, when did the Holy Spirit have the personality of humanity in order to be divested of it? "Divested" means removed, stripped, put off. There's really no other way to read this statement other than the Holy Spirit is [Christ] Himself.

I haven't been following this discussion particularly closely (viz. at all before today), and I'm not sure if I'll continue to do so or not. I wanted to present that for the sake of the discussion you seem to be carrying on, however.

[John317]

John,

I don't think that's a very reasonable way of reading the material at hand. Regarding the Willie White letter, you asked how anyone could misunderstand what she wrote. When presented with the above letter from her son, you said:

Originally Posted By: John317

...What the letter really shows is that Ellen White did not discuss the Godhead with members of her family and that W.C. White did not have a good grasp or comprehension of what Mrs. White believed and taught about the Godhead. Ellen White didn't argue or discuss these things with people, but she preached it and wrote. She said that if people didn't accept the truth on the basis of her preaching and writing, arguing and debating it wouldn't do any good anyway.

Well, either way, it's pretty clear that some people in Mrs. White's intimate inner circle could "misunderstand what she wrote."

The fact is that in the letter, W.C. White says, "There always was in my mind some perplexity regarding the meaning of her utterances which to my superficial manner of thinking seemed to be somewhat confused. I have often regretted that I did not possess that keenness of mind that could solve this and other perplexities." He is admitting here that he did not understand Ellen White's views on the Godhead and that he couldn't explain them.

The principle here that we need to keep in mind is that we cannot go to W.C. White to get some kind of authoritative explanation or interpretation of Ellen White's views on the Godhead. He was not inspired and he admits in this letter that he doesn't understand his mother's writings and views on the topic. To understand her the only thing we can do is study and read her writings and her sermons, etc.

Originally Posted By: Qinael

I suspect you're familiar to some extent with who Willie White was.

Yes, I'm familiar. I grew up on the same street and across the hallway where W.C. White's daughter lived and taught. She sometimes talked about her life in those days, living with Ellen White. I've been interested in the White's as a family for a long time.

Originally Posted By: Qinael

I highly doubt "arguing and debating it" would be a close approximation of how that interaction would have played out. It seems that what you are saying is that... well, you outright said it. She "preached and wrote" about it, but it somehow remained hidden from her closest companions and relatives - including the one she placed in charge of her estate and writings.

That is right. I'd be very interested in knowing if you have evidence that Ellen White talked to her family members about theological matters, such as about the Trinity or about the Godhead. She and James did talk about the righteousness of Christ, but at that time, Ellen White herself did not have a complete understanding of the Godhead. This was during the 1870s and early 1880s. Ellen White was still learning from her visions and dreams as well as from her study. But her husband and she didn't agree on the nature of the Godhead. He was about 10 years or so behind Ellen White. James White was changing his views at the time of his death. Ellen White would go on to say many thing about the Godhead that neither James White nor W.C.White would have said. All one has to do is read the quotes that I posted in previous posts on this discussion. Many of them are contrary to what her husband believed and wrote. Ellen White didn't use her prophetic ministry as a sledge hammer on her husband's beliefs. She gave James room to grow and learn on his own. She did the same with her sons. She didn't tell them what they must believe theologically. There's no evidence that she lectured them on what they must believe when it comes to topics such as the Godhead. This is clear evidence that we cannot go to Ellen White's family members in order to learn what Ellen White believed about the Godhead in the 1890s and early 1900s. As I said, the best and only way to know what Mrs. White believed and taught is to study her writings and her sermons and talks.

W. C. White would never have suggested that people study what he said in order to understand Ellen White's thinking and theology. He says this very thing in his letter dated July 30.

[John317]

By the way, it is interesting in light of the Willie White letter dated July 30, that Ellen White did pray to the Holy Spirit as well as to the whole Godhead-- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- and she also gave praise to the Holy Spirit. One does not pray to, and praise, a nonperson. In fact, she says plainly that the Holy Spirit is a person-- the third person of the Godhead-- and a distinct personage who guides and teaches us.

These are facts. Whatever her sons and her husband believed are a completely different subject. We have to understand that they were wrong on some things, and among these things is the Godhead. We cannot go to the Pioneers of our church-- admirable and great men as they were-- in order to learn what is truth concerning the Godhead. They themselves wouldn't have wanted us to do that. They would have pointed us to the Bible and to the SOP.

[Pastor_Chick]

John,

I understand you are convinced, and that adamantly, the Holy Spirit is that third "individual" making up the Godhead.

You can make "vain repetitions" and even shout in my ears, but it will not change what I "see" from the Holy Spirit itself.

One way to really "win me," and I am NOT a debater or an arguer by nature, is to reason with me. This forum is only the second or third venue I have given my input on. You are much more of a "debater" than myself -- 369 to 166 posts in the past 30 days. You are currently the number TWO "top poster" on CA. And, I am NOT being critical of that. I would say much, if not most, of what I have read of your sharing is worth reading and within what I would regard as historic Adventism (as I understand it).

I have provided you a platform at the other "creation" thread on which to teach me your view regarding the "creation of man" and how it reflects the "image and likeness of God." For some reason, you resist the offer.

As for the W. C. White letter of 1935, I believe "Q" has reasoned that out well enough. AND, by 1935, IF the Church had been "converted" to your "modern view" based on the Bible and SOP, surely W. C. White would have known it.

[John317]

John,

I understand you are convinced, and that adamantly, the Holy Spirit is that third "individual" making up the Godhead.

That is true. I am convinced by such statements as I posted in the above discussion, including the following.

What do these sentences say?

"The Holy Spirit is the Third Person of the [eternal] Godhead,"

The Holy Spirit is a person and has a personality and is a distinct personage.

[John317]

by 1935, IF the Church had been "converted" to your "modern view" based on the Bible and SOP, surely W. C. White would have known it.

That is not necessarily true. You cannot assume this.

What is your evidence that W.C. was right on this subject when he himself admits that he doesn't understand his mother's writings on the topic?