What Ellen White Has Written About the Godhead

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

But I would like to ask you: what aspect of the Trinity doctrine (as SDAs believe it) is not found in Ellen White's writings?

Quote from "The Trinity in Scripture by Gerhard Pfandl":

"The sonship of Jesus, however, is not ontological, but functional. In the plan of salvation each member of the trinity has accepted a particular role."

Merriam-Webster Dictionary: "Ontological" means "related to or based upon being or existence"

Does the writing of the Bible or EGW teach that Jesus was not the Son of God "in being or existence" and that he took a particular role?

Does this teaching make Jesus a liar like the Satan?

First of all, does Gerhard Pfandl speak for the SDA church in what he says here? I'm sure he wouldn't claim that the church has adopted his explanation and viewpoint. When I speak of the Trinity doctrine as the SDA Church believes it, I mean as it is taught in the FB 28, which have been adopted by a vote of the world church.

If our church doctrines teach what Gerhard Pfandl says in the quote, I would like to see it.

By the way, it is not that I necessarily disagree with Pfandl's theory in this, but it is simply not true that this concept is the church's doctrine. It is, rather, a viewpoint that many SDAs share but which is not expressive of the beliefs of the church as a whole.

[John317]

"The sonship of Jesus, however, is not ontological, but functional. In the plan of salvation each member of the trinity has accepted a particular role."

...Does this teaching make Jesus a liar like the Satan?

Please show how it does.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

No, she never said such a thing-- about seeing the Holy Spirit. People have seen representations of the Holy Spirit but never the actual Being Himself.

That's because "He" is the spirit of Jesus, and/or the Father. And yes you can acurately say it is the third person of the Godhead, because you could not see or encounter Him/it while talking face to face with Jesus.

Yes, it is true that the Holy Spirit is called "the Spirit of Jesus." Notice it does not the the Holy Spirit is Jesus. He is the Spirit of Jesus. Why? Because, as John 14 and 16 show, Christ works so closely with the Holy Spirit. But there is overlwhelming evidence that Jesus is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. If He were, it would mean that baby Jesus was conceived through Himself. Also, as I've shown before, the Holy Spirit and Christ were distinct and different persons clear back at creation and the Fall. Then there is Revelation 5: 6 which shows representations of all three Persons of the Godhead, the 7 spirits being a symbol of the Holy Spirit, and the Lamb being a symbol of Christ.

A very powerful evidence that the Holy Spirit and Christ are not identitical is found in Rev. 22: 15. If they are the same, it would mean Christ is telling Christ to "come." Of course the truth is that it says the Holy Spirit is telling Christ to "come."

Please study the following passages:

Christ is one with the Father, but Christ and God are two distinct personages. Read the prayer of Christ in the seventeenth chapter of John, and you will find this point clearly brought out. How earnestly the Saviour prayed that His disciples might be one with Him as He is one with the Father. But the unity that is to exist between Christ and His followers does not destroy the personality of either. They are to be one with Him as He is one with the Father (RH June 1, 1905). {5BC 1148.2}

The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ's name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality. We may have the Holy Spirit if we ask for it and make it [a] habit to turn to and trust in God rather than in any finite human agent who may make mistakes. {20MR 324.2}

The Holy Spirit works in Christ's name but is not Christ.

NOTICE ABOVE THAT THE HOLY SPIRIT IS A DISTINCT PERSONALITY FROM CHRIST, ALTHOUGH THEY WORK VERY CLOSELY TOGETHER.

[Dr. Waite]

quote:

"Yes, Christ comes to us by the Holy Spirit. But Christ and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same person. Ellen White tells us that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person, or personage."

In John chapter 14, at least one of his disciples heard him speak and who did that disciple believe was going to manifest himself unto them and not unto the world?

And what was the answer of Jesus?

Did Jesus say that someone else beside himself and his Father was going to make their abode with the one that loves him and keeps his words?

[Dr. Waite]

John you state:

"First of all, does Gerhard Pfandl speak for the SDA church in what he says here? I'm sure he wouldn't claim that the church has adopted his explanation and viewpoint. When I speak of the Trinity doctrine as the SDA Church believes it, I mean as it is taught in the FB 28, which have been adopted by a vote of the world church."

Gerard Pfandl is the associate director of the Biblical Research Institute which is an intergral part of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists and he speaks on behalf of the General Conference.

[Guest]

A very powerful evidence that the Holy Spirit and Christ are not identitical is found in Rev. 22: 15. If they are the same, it would mean Christ is telling Christ to "come." Of course the truth is that it says the Holy Spirit is telling Christ to "come."

[Pastor_Chick]

The discussion here can be interesting. I have spent more time looking at what the Scriptures say about God, Christ, and Their Spirit. I wonder if the body of material I have gathered should be opened in another thread, since this one is primarily about "What Ellen White Has Written About the Godhead."

I agree with John that readers who may never post anything can realize benefit from the ideas of the posters, but when the thread is taken off topic, readers would never know by the title what they would be reading "off-topic". I doubt if many people take time to browse through long threads with so many deviations from the topic.

So, just for the sake of responding to some of the foregoing about "the Comforter," "Helper," and "Advocate," I'll share the following:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. [...] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. (John 14:16-18)

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [...] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (John 15:1, 5)

"another"

243. allos, al'-los; a prim. word; "else," i.e. different (in many applications):--more, one (another), (an-, some an-) other (-s, -wise).

"Comforter"

3875. parakletos, par-ak'-lay-tos; an intercessor, consoler:--advocate, comforter.

[Dr. Waite]

Sounds clear to me.

Christ said: "for without me you can do nothing" John 15:5

If "God the holy spirit" is another person or another being and is not Christ himself then according to Christ "you can do nothing" because it is NOT Christ, but rather another person or being.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

A very powerful evidence that the Holy Spirit and Christ are not identitical is found in Rev. 22: 15. If they are the same, it would mean Christ is telling Christ to "come." Of course the truth is that it says the Holy Spirit is telling Christ to "come."

Huh? Rev 22:15 doesn't say anything about Jesus coming.

Rev 22:15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

I should have said 22: 17: "And the Spirit and the bride say, 'Come!'"

[John317]

John you state:

"First of all, does Gerhard Pfandl speak for the SDA church in what he says here? I'm sure he wouldn't claim that the church has adopted his explanation and viewpoint. When I speak of the Trinity doctrine as the SDA Church believes it, I mean as it is taught in the FB 28, which have been adopted by a vote of the world church."

Gerard Pfandl is the associate director of the Biblical Research Institute which is an intergral part of the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists and he speaks on behalf of the General Conference.

It's a fact that everything he says does not represent the beliefs of the SDA church. There are many books and statements that come out of the BRI. The only doctrinal statements that have the support of the entire SDA church are the FB 28, which were voted on by the world church in General Conference.

[John317]

But there is overlwhelming evidence that Jesus is not the same person as the Holy Spirit. If He were, it would mean that baby Jesus was conceived through Himself.

Originally Posted By: RLH

Ok, I'll give you that, but why could it not be from the Father? Jesus said it would come from the Father, did he not?

Jesus was conceived from the Father and through the Holy Spirit. The Bible isn't telling us that Jesus Christ was conceived through Himself.

The Father of Jesus of Nazareth was literally God the Father. So as Ellen White says, when Christ became human, He became the Son of God in a new sense.

The Holy Spirit was the instrument through which the seed was placed in Mary's womb. If we say that Christ and the Holy Spirit are one and the same person, we must conclude that Christ placed Himself in Mary's womb.

Is this what we want to say? Is this what the Bible is telling us?

[John317]

What does the statement below say?

Quote:

Christ gave His representative, the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit. This Gift could not be excelled. . . . {CTr 301.4}

Notice that the third PERSON of the Godhead is the "representative" of Christ. Since the Holy Spirit is the representative of Christ, the Holy Spirit is not ALSO Christ Himself, is He?

If so, the above statement would be saying that "Christ gave Christ, Christ's representative, who is the third person of the Godhead, who is Christ."

Also, since the Holy Spirit is "the THIRD PERSON of the Godhead," there must be a first person and a second person.

Who is the first person and the second person of the Godhead?

[John317]

"Yes, Christ comes to us by the Holy Spirit. But Christ and the Holy Spirit are not one and the same person. Ellen White tells us that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person, or personage."

Originally Posted By: Dr. Waite

In John chapter 14, at least one of his disciples heard him speak and who did that disciple believe was going to manifest himself unto them and not unto the world?

And what was the answer of Jesus?

Did Jesus say that someone else beside himself and his Father was going to make their abode with the one that loves him and keeps his words?

Answer: "another" or "some other Comforter". John 14: 16.

Notice that Jesus speaks of this "some other Comforter" as "He," not "Me" or "I."

Since it would be "another Comforter," it would not be the same Comforter.

Jesus spoke clearly of this "other Helper" in John 14: 26:

"But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things..."

It makes no biblical sense to say that "the Father will send ME in MY name." The Father would send "another Helper" (not the same One) in the name of Christ.

The Helper would be Christ's personal representative, the third Person of the Godhead, who is God Himself.

The Third Person of the Godhead is a Person. That is why He is called "the Third Person."

[John317]

The discussion here can be interesting. I have spent more time looking at what the Scriptures say about God, Christ, and Their Spirit. I wonder if the body of material I have gathered should be opened in another thread, since this one is primarily about "What Ellen White Has Written About the Godhead."

I would say no, because Ellen White is not teaching anything contrary to the Bible. Her writings on this topic go together with the doctrines of the Bible. God sent her to our church to speak clearly in English so that we would be without excuse. This is exactly why she says God gave her prophetic gift to us.

Do you find yourself in disagreement with what Ellen White wrote on the Godhead, the Holy Spirit, and the Deity of Christ, as, for instance, in Evangelism 614-617?

[John317]

Christ said: "for without me you can do nothing" John 15:5

If "God the holy spirit" is another person or another being and is not Christ himself then according to Christ "you can do nothing" because it is NOT Christ, but rather another person or being.

Who is the Holy Spirit but the personal representative of Jesus Christ? The Holy Spirit is the agent of Christ, and as such, we are to view the Holy Spirit's presence as the same as Christ's presence. It is in that sense that Christ abides with us and in us. It is not Christ personally, since Christ cannot personally be everywhere at once, but through His agent and personal representative, Christ can be with all of His followers at one time. This is precisely what Ellen White says:

Quote:

Cumbered with humanity, Christ could not be in every place personally; therefore it was altogether for their advantage that He should leave them, go to His father, and send the Holy Spirit to be His successor on earth. The Holy Spirit is Himself divested of the personality of humanity and independent thereof. He [Christ] would represent Himself [Christ] as present in all places by His [Christ's] Holy Spirit, as the Omnipresent.

Notice that the Holy Spirit is Christ's succeessor on earth.

Is Christ's successor Christ Himself under a different name?

Is Christ's agent and personal representative Christ Himself?

That would be like saying the President Obama's agent and personal representative is Obama himself.

[John317]

...just for the sake of responding to some of the foregoing about "the Comforter," "Helper," and "Advocate," I'll share the following:

And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. [...] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. (John 14:16-18)

I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. [...] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. (John 15:1, 5)

Originally Posted By: Strong's Dictionary

"another"

243. allos, al'-los; a prim. word; "else," i.e. different (in many applications):--more, one (another), (an-, some an-) other (-s, -wise).

"Comforter"

3875. parakletos, par-ak'-lay-tos; an intercessor, consoler:--advocate, comforter.

This would mean that when Christ said, "I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever," Jesus was saying, "The Father will give you a different, or some other, Comforter."

Jesus clearly did NOT say, "I will pray the Father, and He shall give you Me (the same comforter) so that I may abide with you for ever."

Do you agree? Or do you believe this is exactly what Jesus was saying?

Christ is personally in the heavenly sanctuary with the Father. The Father and Christ are not personally on the earth with Christ's followers. Those two Persons are with us through the Holy Spirit, who is their personal representative. He is the third Person of the Godhead.

Who is the first person of the Godhead?

Who is the second person of the Godhead?

Are the first and second persons of the Godhead persons?

How about the third person of the Godhead? Is He a person and a distinct person?

[Scion]

Quote:

Jesus was conceived from the Father and through the Holy Spirit. The Bible isn't telling us that Jesus Christ was conceived through Himself.

I actually don't see why this is a problem. The name of God given in the Old Testament, at least according to the commentaries I have read, means "The self-existent one." Like Father, like Son, it seems... Jesus Christ was only conceived physically in Mary with a human body, but pre-existed His incarnation, and in fact had an integral part in the planning phase. So yes, in a very real sense, Christ was conceived through His own influence in the world of men. That statement doesn't preclude the identification of the Son with the Spirit.

While Ellen White does speak about the Holy Spirit as a "third" she ALSO identifies the Spirit with Christ Himself in places as conspicuous as The Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy; she just specifies that the Spirit is without the limitations of humanity. That last bit is important. We can try to make analogies about it, but we know that this will always fall short of the reality. The Trinity is a human attempt to conceive of something that is beyond human understanding, and as such must necessarily fall short. I think it's always best to go with what the Word says, and be very cautious about taking things beyond that, particularly when formulating doctrine, regardless of how widespread and popular that doctrine may be.

[John317]

..While Ellen White does speak about the Holy Spirit as a "third" she ALSO identifies the Spirit with Christ Himself in places as conspicuous as The Desire of Ages and The Great Controversy...

Can you give the page numbers so I know what particular passages you're talking about?

[John317]

I actually don't see why this is a problem. The name of God given in the Old Testament, at least according to the commentaries I have read, means "The self-existent one." Like Father, like Son, it seems...

But there are three living persons of the heavenly trio, not two. Thus the Holy Spirit is a living Person, and Ellen White says plainly that the Holy Spirit is a distinct person, and is the fullness of the Godhead. Ev. 617. Hence the Holy Spirit is not part of the Second Person of the God, but is the fullness of the Godhead in the same way that the first person and the second person of the Godhead are both individually the fullness of the Godhead.

Gen. 1: 2 shows that the Spirit of God was active at the creation of the world. Was this Spirit the same Being as the Word of John 1: 1?

[John317]

... Jesus Christ was only conceived physically in Mary with a human body, but pre-existed His incarnation, and in fact had an integral part in the planning phase. So yes, in a very real sense, Christ was conceived through His own influence in the world of men. That statement doesn't preclude the identification of the Son with the Spirit.

But we have many clear statements that contradict this.

What do you do with the following?

"The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption." (Counsels On Health 222)

Notice that at the time of the Fall, there were clearly three distinct persons of the Godhead. The Godhead is eternal. It doesn't change. You can't add and subtract persons to and from the Godhead. The Godhead is what it is for eternity.

Notice, too, that the Holy Spirit is referred to as one of the persons who "gave Themselves" and "worked out" a plan.

Only an acutal person can give Himself and work out a plan. It requires a will and a mind. The Holy Spirit also has feelings, like the Father and the Son-- they all THREE felt "pity" for the human race, and this feeling of pity caused them to "give THEMSELVES."

[Guest]

I edited your quote John, to say Rev. 22:17 like you intended.

A very powerful evidence that the Holy Spirit and Christ are not identitical is found in Rev. 22: 17. If they are the same, it would mean Christ is telling Christ to "come." Of course the truth is that it says the Holy Spirit is telling Christ to "come."

Rev 22:17 is not a call for Christ to come. It is a call for you and me, and anyone else, to come and take the water of life freely. Christ does not need the water of life, because He IS the water of life.

[Guest]

Quote:

Jesus was conceived from the Father and through the Holy Spirit. The Bible isn't telling us that Jesus Christ was conceived through Himself.

I'm not saying that it does. But the Bible DOES say that He came from the Father. The Father through his spirit placed the seed in Mary.

Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.

[Pastor_Chick]

John,

Please allow me to add these two statements from the later writings of Ellen White. I have many more things to add but have little time to post immediately.

We are to manifest the love of Christ through the indwelling of his quickening Spirit. Those who differ with us in faith and doctrine should be treated kindly. They are the property of Christ, and we must meet them in the great day of final account. We shall have to face one another in the Judgment, and behold the record of our thoughts, words, and deeds, not as we have viewed them, but as they were in truth. (YI 12-09-97)

Jesus came to "destroy the works of the devil." "In Him was life," and He says, "I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." He is "a quickening spirit." 1 John 3:8; John 1:4; 10:10; 1 Cor. 15:45. (DA 270)

[Pastor_Chick]

I edited your quote John, to say Rev. 22:17 like you intended.

Originally Posted By: John317

A very powerful evidence that the Holy Spirit and Christ are not identitical is found in Rev. 22: 17. If they are the same, it would mean Christ is telling Christ to "come." Of course the truth is that it says the Holy Spirit is telling Christ to "come."

Rev 22:17 is not a call for Christ to come. It is a call for you and me, and anyone else, to come and take the water of life freely. Christ does not need the water of life, because He IS the water of life.

Very keen observation, RLH.

[Pastor_Chick]

We know that Christ was the active "person" of God in the Old Testament.

And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. (Exo. 31:18)

The same law that was engraved upon the tables of stone is written by the Holy Spirit upon the tables of the heart. (PP 372)

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: how shall not the ministration of the Spirit be rather glorious? . . . Now the Lord is that Spirit. And where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. (ST 07-10-93)

The apostle Paul says to his Corinthian brethren, "Ye are. . . the epistle of Christ. . . . written not with ink, bu with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart." For the disciples of Christ are his representatives upon the earth. (SW 06-30-08)

CHRIST, HIMSELF says:

But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. (Jer. 31:33)

And he gave unto Moses, when he had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of testimony, tables of stone, written with the finger of God. (Exo. 31:18)

But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you. (Luke 11:20)

It is Christ, Himself who writes His laws in the hearts of His people. Christ, Himself has the "finger of God" for such purpose. Christ, Himself is the "Spirit of the living God."