"His Holiness"?

[Robert]

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I am reading Jones as saying that Christ was made sin --from conception or implantation --per the Davidic lament… There are others who read 2 Corinthians 5:21; Isa 53:6; and Galatians 3:13 as having sin laid upon Him at the cross. What is your opinion of the matter?

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The humanity that Christ assumed...or was made (while fully remaining God) was our sinful humanity. So the minute His divinity was linked to our fallen humanity, our humanity came "under the curse".....That's because we are sinners by conception (see Ps 51:5)

Your statement, "having sin laid upon Him at the cross" is crazy! However, you are not alone...Adventists make this statement! How does one have "sins" laid on him? Absolutely makes no sense....

If you break the law and the penalty is death, how can I (if I substitute my life for your sin) have your sin "laid" on me?

Now if I could assume your life from "Adam" while remaining sinless myself, then I take your life to the grave and completely meet the law's demands....But I can't because 1] I am a sinner and 2] I am not God....

[Robert]

Give up, JASD...listen to the Holy Spirit on this one! You need to accept the gospel...the genuine gospel.

Just do it!

Rob

[jasd]

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The question that must be asked is, did Jesus come to save a sinless or sinful humanity? The answer can only be sinful humanity....Why? The law doesn't condemn sinless beings...it condemns sinners!

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I concur that there is something of a much larger picture (than that which our poor understanding can make out), translating into the schema of things redemptive.

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"Poor understanding"? I don't think so....Maybe your poor understanding, but not mine!

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“The law doesn't condemn sinless beings” [ed.]

Reprised: “a child might die before drawing a dozen ‘sinless’ breaths…” What occurs generationally, that the sinless child dies?

“…our poor understanding…” [ed.]

“our” was, to use a term you’ve employed on occasion, --used in the “corporate” sense.

>>You really go out of your way to prove your righteousness...or should I say "His Holiness"?<<

Mine? “His…”? what are you saying?

Per “Holiness”: How often does the NT refer to the ecclesia as either/and saints or holy? Quite, yes? If we were to follow the example provided, you and I are saints, holy, sanctified, justified, saved, etc… Why are you so invested in an animus for JP II? Does not your Bible adjure you to render honour to whom honour is due, etc? I mean,

if you, personally, find it objectionable to refer to JP II as “His Holiness” then you probably should restrain from doing so; that being said, what compels you to embrace the issue as cause celeb?

>>Let me quote Jesus, again:

"there is none good but one, that is, God" Matt 19:17<<

And let me reprise, no one suggests that JP II ought to have been addressed as…, ‘His goodness’. How does one withstand Jesus’ pronouncement upon the matter?

>>Now Paul:

"None is [:"red"]righteous[/], no, not one" Rom 3:10<< [ed.]

Jam 5:16 …The effectual fervent prayer of a [:"red"]righteous[/] man availeth much.

>>Was that too hard for you to understand?<<

Are you beginning to suspect that St Paul might have been a bit conflicted?

>>Now to Enoch:

Heb 11:5 By faith Enoch was taken up so that he should not see death...

Did Enoch go to heaven without seeing the 1st death? It seems so....<< [ed.]

It might behoove us to pause. Does Writ say that Enoch went to “heaven”? No. However, if he “was taken up”, he would have had to have gone to _a_ heaven -- that of a heaven other than the heaven of heavens wherein Gd dwells and from whence Jesus descended; that is,

unless you are putting forward a ‘Enoch-was-an-Avatar’ posit.

Jn 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, [even] the Son of man which is in heaven. --Jesus

>>…without seeing the 1st death? It seems so....<<

It would seem so. However, does Writ indicate that Enoch shall yet see the 1st death? I believe that exegesis requires Enoch to be one of the two witnesses of The Apocalypse --and thereby, experience the 1st death. He would then meet his ‘appointment with death’. ‘Til then, his destiny with death is in abeyance.

[jasd]

>>Now go to 1 Cor 15:22

"For as in Adam all die"

But you know, and you agree that this statement of St Paul’s is not one bound in exactitude. Doesn’t your .Org teach, for one thing, of a translation at the last trump? I have, heretofore, inferred that you accept this text metaphorically --in conjunction with a transmutation to the “in Christ” motif.

>>Verse 51: Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [die], [:"red"]but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye[/]....<<

Ah, you see, “We shall not all sleep [die]…”. The bolded thought… does it mean that

/ “we” are all changed simultaneously? or

/ in our own order [tagma]?

I ask because, St Paul indicates that upon leaving the tabernacle of flesh (“…do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. --2 Cor 5:4), the redeemed is not unclothed.

Verse 53: For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.

Just like the living at the 2nd coming are changed in the twinkling of an eye, Enoch too was changed! What was changed? Well...his corruptible life was changed to incorruption...his life of mortality...to immortality!<< [ed.]

Oh, here it is… the “living ‘translated’ at the 2nd coming”. That being noted,

are there substantiating texts for that, which follows… in the above quote? That is, “Enoch too was changed! …to immortality!”

[jasd]

>>So his old self did die, instantaneously!<< [ed.]

Again, …please provide the texts that substantiates the constructive.

>>>Jn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Are you one who rejects the ipsissima verba of Christ?<<<

>>No, but you reject it by taking it out of its context!

Let's look at that statement:

“I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live [future tense] even if he dies,<<

Jn 11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, [:"red"]though he were dead[/], yet shall he live:

So far, so good; John 11:25 reads as straight-up OT teaching -- those having already died in Christ will live; cometh the resurrection.

>>Very clear statement!<<

Indeed, indubitably so…

>>If you believe in Christ as your only ticket to heaven (instead of this legalistic, self-righteous junk that comes from the Pope)...then you will live for eternity, even if you die! How? The resurrection!<<

[:"blue"](“instead of this legalistic, self-righteous junk that comes from the Pope”)[/] --Robert

Well, dismissing the colorful and oratorical paraphrastic, …Selah: The above statement slightly misconstrues. I may be wrong, but John 11:25 seems to be an establishing predicate for the declarative that follows as, --contradistinctive.

Jn 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. …

That’s, “shall NEVER DIE”. That’s Christ-speak. That is straightforward NT. That is…, those living thenceforeward, --from the sea change effected by the Christ-speak of “…whosoever LIVETH and BELIEVETH in me SHALL NEVER DIE”. SELAH

It remains --that we ought to revisit our dogmas, --as they pertain to --DIE.

[jasd]

>>>The above parallels the concept that Christ was born without spot or blemish. Impossible? only with dogmatists.<<<

>>I have already proved that Christ as God could take our fallen life from Adam and blend it with His deity without becoming sinful. Where have you been?<<

If you have already proved that hypothesis to your satisfaction, I hold no brief with that; however, consider

again,

the question is not of becoming “sinful”, but of inheriting a native (internal) predisposition towards evil (sin). If Christ/Gd had that --as innately a part of His nature… then it would be impossible to ‘see/perceive’ with either the eye or the heart --the spotlessness of the redemptive being --Jesus Christ. In fact, He would not have been the spotless Type of the Atonement.

[:"blue"]Where have you been?[/] --Robert

>>>Gd does as He purposes, He being Gd.<<<

[:"blue"]Having spelling problems? Gd? How about "God"![/] --Robert

>>No, God can't do as He wishes....<<

The statement reads: “Gd does as He purposes,…”

>>God can't sin!<<

Perhaps, not externally…, but how about Him sharing a “sin” nature? Having, innately, the predisposition to sin?

>>And if He states that the soul that sins must die, then to LEGALLY save the fallen, human race we had to die "in Him"....Otherwise it's all a lie!<<

Perhaps, you’d share what you think the phrase “in Him” means?

[:"blue"]Your poor arguments grow old.[/] --Robert

[jasd]

>>>Anyway, the man isn’t here and I suspect that he is already with the Lord; so…<<

>>No, he is dead...dead...dead!<<

But certainly! from the perspective of the profane “he is dead…”; but what of the perspective from Writ? of the animate vitality? of the constituent man?

2Co 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: … v8 We are confident, [i say] , and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. v9 Wherefore we labour, that, whether present or absent, we may be accepted of him.

Notice: There are only two states of being, two posits under discussion by St Paul.

>>If his faith was in Christ's doing and dying, then he is sleeping...<<

“sleeping” is a euphemism.

>>…which means someone is going to wake him up! It’s called the resurrection....<<

Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, v53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

It seems that the “resurrection” began a couple of millennia ago.

>>This assumption that the believer's soul goes to heaven upon death…<<

Well, according to Revelations 6:9 there seems to be at least a few “souls… that were slain” that are in heaven --before the Second Advent.

Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

[:"blue"]…is just another legalistic, self-righteous works trip invented by "the man of sin".[/] --Robert

>>If there's something good in me that lives on after death, then naturally some part of me is sinless....<<

Wha’happened to “in Him”?

[:"blue"]Poppycock![/] --Robert

[jasd]

>>>There are others who read 2 Corinthians 5:21; Isa 53:6; and Galatians 3:13 as having sin laid upon Him at the cross. What is your opinion of the matter?<<<

>>Your statement, "having sin laid upon Him at the cross" is crazy!<<

Lev 16:21 And Aaron shall lay both his hands upon the head of the live goat, and confess over him all the iniquities of the children of Israel, and all their transgressions in all their sins, putting them upon the head of the goat, and shall send [him] away by the hand of a fit man into the wilderness: v22 And the goat shall bear upon him all their iniquities unto a land not inhabited: and he shall let go the goat in the wilderness.

[:"blue"]…is crazy![/] --Robert

>>How does one have "sins" laid on him? Absolutely makes no sense....<<

Read the antitypical Atonement in the above Leviticus 16:21.

>>If you break the law and the penalty is death, how can I (if I substitute my life for your sin) have your sin "laid" on me?<<

Please, you are not, nor am I the Redemptor. The Gdhead provided the means and the test, --that suffices.

>>Now if I could assume your life from "Adam" while remaining sinless myself, then I take your life to the grave and completely meet the law's demands....But I can't because 1] I am a sinner and 2] I am not God....<< [ed.]

Exactly.

[jasd]

>>...the genuine gospel.<<

Which is…? :-)

[jasd]

[:"blue"]jasd 12:12 It is the spirit of excellent understanding that knoweth the heart of Gd. v12 Therein that heart is found sorrow equally for the tongue that breaketh bones as for the sword that sheddeth blood; for the haughty countenance, as for persistent falsity. … v12 Know ye not also that thine Gd hast said, how is it that mine people bringeth forth gall? that same flowing from bowels knowing neither mercy nor forbearance: v12 Shouldest not mine own elect instead, bring forth from the fulness of their houses bread for the belly, oil for the wounded, wine for the sick, and manna of the word for the perishing; even honey evermore, for gladness? … v12 Yea, moreover, give heed, lest he that beareth the inkhorn shouldest not be found in that day wherein thine hope hast its rest.[/] [/grinnin' like a durn fool ;-)

[Robert]

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>>...the genuine gospel.<<

Which is…? :-)

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The truth as it is "in Christ"!

[Robert]

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2 Co 5:6 Therefore [we are] always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord.....

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Context:

Verse 1 "For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building from God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."

Clearly "our earthly house" refers to our sinful life, but what is this "house" [tabernacle] "in the heavens"?

Eph 2:4

• But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised [:"red"]us[/] up with Him [Christ], [:"red"]and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus...[/]

"This house" in heaven refers to our corporate, glorified life that is "in Christ Jesus." We receive this life at the resurrection. Anything that denies this truth attacks the gospel and therefore is legalistic!

Verse 2 "For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: 3 If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 4 For we that are in this tabernacle [fallen life] do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. 5 Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit. 6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body [while we remain "flesh & blood" or sinful], we are absent from the Lord [i.e., in this sinful human life we can't enter heaven]: 7(For we walk by faith, not by sight:) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body [i.e., we are willing to let this old sinful life die], and to be present with the Lord."

I concur....This old sinful life is but a vapor....I want my new, glorified life "IN CHRIST JESUS!" When do I get it?

When I die? NO! At the resurrection:

2 Tim 4:6

• "For I [Paul] am already being poured out like a drink offering, and the time has come for my departure [death]. 7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith.

  Now what's the reward for keeping one's faith in Christ Jesus?

  8 Now there is in store for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day

  what day?

  —and not only to me, but also to all who have longed for his appearing.

So we receive our new, glorified life that is "in Christ Jesus" at the resurrection! Yes...some have already received it at Christ's resurrection...but Paul is speaking after the cross.

The question is do believers have eternal life? Yes...by faith!

You see we are still sinful...still mortals. Eternal life is something we have by faith while in this sinful "house". We receive immortality at the 2nd coming when we become sinless....So our immortality...our eternal life is "in Christ"!

Proof:

• 1 John 5:11 "The witness is this, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is [:"red"]in His Son[/]. 12 He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have the life.

[jasd]

[:"blue"]Decibel, decibels...[/]:-o

[Robert]

Colossians 1:13

• "For He [God the Father] delivered us from the domain of darkness [this world], and transferred [:"red"]us[/] to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins."

Like I said, "In Christ" we have a glorified, corporate life in the heavenly places.

[Robert]

[Robert]

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Like I said, "In Christ" we have a glorified, corporate life in the heavenly places.

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Since our new life...our glorified, sinless, immortal life is now "in Christ" in heaven itself...why the teaching of the immortality of the soul?

Simple: To attack the gospel of Christ!

If something in me "cheats" death then something in me is naturally "good" and therefore I can merit/gain heaven through something good...something holy!

This heresy denies mankind's utter sinfulness and Christ's complete atonement through and in Himself!

Hence:

• "Through the two great errors, the immortality of the soul and Sunday sacredness [another subject], Satan will bring the people under his deceptions. While the former lays the foundation of Spiritualism, the latter [i.e., Sunday sacredness] creates a bond of sympathy with Rome. The Protestants of the United States will be foremost in stretching their hands across the gulf to grasp the hand of Spiritualism; they will reach over the abyss to clasp hands with the Roman power; and under the influence of this threefold union, this country will follow in the steps of Rome in trampling on the rights of conscience."

[Gregory Matthews]

Prior to making this post, I have NOT reviewed all five pages of the posts, which have mainly been written by JSAD and Robert.

But, I will comment on the beginning posts which related to the manner in which the Roman Catholic Pope is addressed as The Holy Father, His Holliness and other such.

If we are going to criticize the use of such titles for a human being, we ought to be accurate in our understanding of the OFFICIAL meaning that is attached to those titles.  We should be careful not to attribute meanings to them that are not a part of Roman Catholic theology.

In RC theology, the Pope is a sinful human being like the  rest of us.  Due to this, the Pope has a Confessor Priest to whom he is expected to confess his sins with the same obligation as any other human.  IOW, in RC  theology, those titles DO NOT imply that the  Pope is without sin.

JSAD is on the right track in his postings as to the Biblical meaning of the word "saint."  The Bible calls Christians saints.  In basic meaning, the saints are those who are dedicated to Christ. 

In the same sense, in RC theology a holy person is such a dedicated saint.  That is the  meaning that is attached to the titles given to the Pope.  The difference is that in RC theology, the Pope had committed himself to a total dedication to Christ in all of his life.  The RC intended meaning behind those titles is simply to recognize that total dedication to spirituality and Christ that is a part of the life of the Pope.

One might say that the common RC member, may not understand that and therefore something else to the meanings of those titles.  If that is true in individual cases we still should be accurate in  our representation of RC official teaching.

Yes, I would not be comfortable in addressing the Pope in those terms.  But, that is a different issue.