Guest Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Also the top 10% pay 75% of the tax burden. 51% of americans don't pay any income tax at all. Did you know that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 The comparison is the relative spread between rich and poor. The gap is ever widening. At best for the past several decades working class wages have been relatively stagnant, barely keeping pace with inflation, while top-tier executives income has grown 10X over the same period If the upper class is getting rich while the middle and lower classes are staying stagnant... I don't see a problem there. It is not as if the upper class is taking from the lower classes. The credit economy we have moved into actually may account for why many in the lower and middle classes are staying stagnant (if they actually are) because a larger share of their income is going to pay interest payments while their parents did not have such foolish costs. The economy is not like a finite pie that is divided among the various classes. To use that analogy, one has to have a pie that grows. If the rich are growing richer while the middle and lower classes are staying stagnant, all that would mean is that as the pie increases, the rich are increasing the size of their pieces. Economics is not a science. In science an experiment can be repeated and produce the same results. There are too many dynamics in economics so the best we can to is try and predict what certain things will do based on the past. It is possible that Obama could raise taxes on the rich and the economy could boom. However past events tend to make that unlikely. If we want to help out the poor and middle class, we need to look at the reasons why their piece of the pie hasn't been growing as quickly as the super rich. We must also remember that these groups are dynamic and there are constantly people moving from the poor into the middle, the middle into the super rich and the super rich down into the middle and so forth. When we discuss these income groups, we are not discussing a group of specific people that is not changing. I think we are doing a lot of things right. The enrollment at our public universities is increasing. More people growing up in poverty are going to college. In many parts of the nation, vocation schools are producing skilled workers. So if this generation is better educated than the previous, why would wages be stagnant? Again, I am not so sure that the lower and middle class have been stagnant over the past few decades. I would have to see some compelling data that shows that. It really just sounds like rhetoric to me. Hidalgo and Camaron are the two counties that are always being selected as the poorest counties in the US. There is no poorer place in the US. What I see here is a lot better than what I grew up in. And stagnant isn't necessarily bad. If my parents had it good and things stay stagnant, that would mean I have it good too. Of course in my personal situation, I am in the middle class and my parents were in the lower class. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 2, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 2, 2011 The incremental tax rate would not as significantly impact those in the $200,000 income range. The much higher income levels of a half million or over would be impacted more. Runs some real numbers here and see - http://calculator.taxpolicycenter.org/ Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Also the top 10% pay 75% of the tax burden. 51% of americans don't pay any income tax at all. Did you know that? Talk radio loves to rattle off these stats. But we all pay taxes. Corporations pay taxes and pass the cost off to consumers. So anybody that buys anything in the US pays taxes. We all pay tax on our telephone minutes. We pay tax at the gas pump. We all pay Social Security tax and the burden of Social Security rests primarily on the lower and middle class. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Shane you are making really good sense tonight. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 My last post was typed before I saw your last post. I may have to take it back. Those numbers are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 The numbers are correct but misleading. Those numbers only focus on income tax. But there are lots of different taxes. The guy that makes $100,000/year is paying as much Social Security tax as the guy that males $12 million/year. Is that fair? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 The numbers are correct but misleading. Those numbers only focus on income tax. But there are lots of different taxes. The guy that makes $100,000/year is paying as much Social Security tax as the guy that males $12 million/year. Is that fair? Yes it is fair. The guy that makes 12 million a year pays the same percentage if both are self employed up to the SS Cap,but the guy earning 100,000 a year will undoubtedly use more government services in his retirement years.Because of the higher earnings my brother paid in more quarterly than did my husband,altho they were both paying in roughly 13%. He certainly paid more in federal inclome tax. God does not require a higher tithe on the rich. What they give to charities is another matter. What is fair about taking more from me if I am willing to work harder than my neighbor? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 And Bonnie, it's not about jealousy. That's just silly. And the rich aren't providing the jobs. The largest part of the job market is among small businesses that are below the tax threshold that is being suggested by Obama. A huge part of the lopsided tax difference is the corporate income taxes vs. personal income taxes - big difference, don't confuse the two. That is the basis on which GE can post $14 billion in profits and pay no taxes. Even multi-billionare Warren Buffett said it is very unfair that his own secretary pays more taxes as a percentage of her income than he does. He is an advocate for rolling back the Bush era tax cuts for the wealthy. Are you saying that he is green with jealousy?!?! No,I don't think it is silly.Maybe you should tell Obama what rich is.He seems to think it is 200,000 for single and 250,000 for married.That silly man thinks they are buying luxury jets. I have never quite understood why a corporate tax is necessary. As long as every owner/employee pays income tax that is a double tax. You shouldn't confuse the two. Obama is all for taxing that rich crowd starting at 200,000.There is nothing stopping Buffet from paying more taxes. Let him put his money where his big mouth is.Buffet can simply file without taking any deductions. His moral dilemma is solved. Is he jealous?I think a little different reason behind his big mouth Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 What is fair about taking more from me if I am willing to work harder than my neighbor? It is a Christian principle. "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." (Luke 12:48) Social Security tax is a burden on the poor and middle class. The upper class needs the lower classes to spend money in order that the upper class can remain in the upper class. So to say that the lower classes will use more government services and thus should carry the weight of the Social Security system really shows a lack of understanding the dynamics of our economic system. Take the food stamps program for example. Who benefits most from the food stamp program? If you answered corporate America you answered correctly. If it were not for the food stamp program, companies like Kraft Foods, General Foods, Kelloggs and Coca-Cola would lose a large share of their business. It is short-sighted to look just at the direct beneficiaries of a given government program. One must look beyond to all the indirect beneficiaries and there we often find the super rich complaining about high taxes. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Quote: A huge part of the lopsided tax difference is the corporate income taxes vs. personal income taxes - big difference, don't confuse the two. Corporations pass the cost they pay in taxes off to the consumer. When a doctor comes to me and asks that I build them a new clinic, I figure up the cost of material, labor, insurance, fees, permits and taxes and include all of that in my proposal. The doctor will pay the taxes, not the contractor. So it is will all businesses. In the global market, the government can only raise corporate taxes to the level the market will bare. If the government raises them too much, the company will not be able to compete and will either go out of business, drastically do less business or move to another country where it can increase its profits. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 Quote: Take the food stamps program for example. Who benefits most from the food stamp program? If you answered corporate America you answered correctly. If it were not for the food stamp program, companies like Kraft Foods, General Foods, Kelloggs and Coca-Cola would lose a large share of their business. It is short-sighted to look just at the direct beneficiaries of a given government program. One must look beyond to all the indirect beneficiaries and there we often find the super rich complaining about high taxes. While corporate America does benefit,I doubt they benefit more than the recipient that has someone feeding their families for them.Maybe individually corporate America benefits in a larger monetary sense but they should. The recipient does nothing to earn their food stamp charity.Why should they benefit more than the ones doing all the work and taking the risks. That is like saying my husband's employee's should have benefitted as much as my husband. There were some that thought so and ended up trying it on their own.Fell flat on their face when they realized the committment and grueling hours that went with the territory Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 Bonnie, I think your tangents are going off track and not addressing the topic of the thread. The graduated tax scale is Biblical. The rich should pay a greater percentage than the poor. The comparison to tithe is faulty as tithe is the minimum required from the believer. In addition to tithe, God expects the believer to give offerings and more is expected from the rich than the poor. The Bush tax-cuts were good because they stimulated the economy when it was in recession. Reagan and Kennedy were successful doing the same thing. GHW Bush raised taxes caused a recession. Clinton raised taxes as the economy was coming out of the GHW-Bush recession and that tax increase helped hold back inflation. Raising taxes now doesn't seem like a good idea because regardless who ends up paying more, it will be money coming out of the private sector. That is not good during a recession. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 2, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 2, 2011 Quote: A huge part of the lopsided tax difference is the corporate income taxes vs. personal income taxes - big difference, don't confuse the two. Corporations pass the cost they pay in taxes off to the consumer. When a doctor comes to me and asks that I build them a new clinic, I figure up the cost of material, labor, insurance, fees, permits and taxes and include all of that in my proposal. The doctor will pay the taxes, not the contractor. So it is will all businesses. In the global market, the government can only raise corporate taxes to the level the market will bare. If the government raises them too much, the company will not be able to compete and will either go out of business, drastically do less business or move to another country where it can increase its profits. Right now the problem is not corporations paying taxes that they pass on to the consumer in higher prices. The problem is that they do not pass on the tax savings when they get a special break by lowering their prices to consumers. (Think big oil...) They just post higher profits which they pass on to shareholders and dole out in outrageous bonuses to their executives without giving bonuses to the workers that made it possible. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 Bonnie, I think your tangents are going off track and not addressing the topic of the thread. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 2, 2011 Author Share Posted July 2, 2011 Can you show be a biblical reference or text that dictates a graduated tax? I know he expects 10% from all but I have not read where it states a graduated tax. I know that as christians we should give more but I do not want the federal government dictating according to scripture. The first responsibility of the government is to spend wisely that which it takes from the citizens of the country. Instead of the constant raising of the debt ceiling and raising taxes to spend money on sheer lunacy Do we really need to spend $550,496 to learn about the sex lives of truck drivers. Or to teach chinese prostitues to drink responsibly? There are thousands of expenditures like this. The all time stupidity was one under the stimulus bill where a million dollars was spent on what the effects of alcohol on goldfish were. They could trim a lot more than they can ever bring in taxing the rich. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 What the rich give over and above a reasonable tax is their business. It is not up to the rich to decide what they want to give. We live in a democracy. If the rich don't like the tax rate here, they can move to another country where the government is corrupt and they can pay off politicians instead of pay an honest tax. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2011 Share Posted July 2, 2011 It is a Christian principle. "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked." (Luke 12:48) The graduated tax scale is Biblical. The rich should pay a greater percentage than the poor. Wrong! Your whole Bible comparison thing to Lk 12:48 is faulty. Luke 12:48 is not referring to a tax of any kind. God does NOT collect taxes. It is true that "to whom much is given, much will be required" but it is in no way talking about taxes. We as Adventists have been given great knowledge concerning the things of God. So more will be required of us in the judgement, than say, somebody who has never known the truth, but loved the LORD just the same. We will be held responsible for what we did with that knowledge. It has nothing at all to do with taxes. That is a whole separate issue, that is dealt with in Matt 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." and left at that. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell how taxes should be set up. That is left entirely up to the secular rulers. We are only told to go ahead and pay it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie What the rich give over and above a reasonable tax is their business. It is not up to the rich to decide what they want to give. We live in a democracy. If the rich don't like the tax rate here, they can move to another country where the government is corrupt and they can pay off politicians instead of pay an honest tax. No we do not live in a democracy,it is rather a democratic republic and the following is why........ The Framers of the Constitution were altogether fearful of pure democracy. Everything they read and studied taught them that pure democracies "have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives as they have been violent in their deaths" (Federalist No. 10). But you are right those that don't like the tax rate can and do move. Or they reduce the amount of production or work they produce.Of course that hurts the very ones you profess to be so concerned about. The luxury tax on yachts should have taught all but the dimmest.The rich still purchased their luxury yachts and US employee's were laid off.Who did it hurt? How much additional revenue was raised by the desire to tax the rich over and above. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 Quote: The graduated tax scale is Biblical. The rich should pay a greater percentage than the poor. If this is true wonder why God did not require the rich to pay more than 10% tithe? Quote: Wrong! Your whole Bible comparison thing to Lk 12:48 is faulty. Luke 12:48 is not referring to a tax of any kind. God does NOT collect taxes. It is true that "to whom much is given, much will be required" but it is in no way talking about taxes. Most of us understand this. The much that is required is far more than money.But you have to watch out for that little green monster that hangs around here. As for being more generous with monetary goods nowhere does God say the government should be in charge of charitable giving Quote: It has nothing at all to do with taxes. That is a whole separate issue, that is dealt with in Matt 22:21 "Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's." and left at that. Nowhere in the Bible does it tell how taxes should be set up. That is left entirely up to the secular rulers. We are only told to go ahead and pay it. Whether a tax is just and reasonable is beside the point.We are to pay the tax. That does not mean we need to remain silent about lunacy and needless and mindless waste. In their gleeful desire to punish those that earn more they care little the impact it has on the very ones they wring their hands over in despair.Get those filthy rich and they have done their duty. Really do have to laugh tho when you realize how much more generous and giving the nasty conservatives are.Even in giving of their blood.Seems they understand the "to whom much has been given,much is required" Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 If this is true wonder why God did not require the rich to pay more than 10% tithe? He does. That was my point. The 10% tithe is the minimal amount to be paid. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie If this is true wonder why God did not require the rich to pay more than 10% tithe? He does. That was my point. The 10% tithe is the minimal amount to be paid. Please show me where he requires a bigger percent than 10% What we do over and above that is not the point. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 3, 2011 Share Posted July 3, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie If this is true wonder why God did not require the rich to pay more than 10% tithe? He does. That was my point. The 10% tithe is the minimal amount to be paid. Where in the Bible does it say that we are to pay more than 10% tithe? You seem to still be confusing tithe with taxes. God has never laid out a plan for who should pay the most tax, because God doesn't collect taxes. That is left up to the Caesars of the world, and has nothing to do with God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 3, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 3, 2011 No we do not live in a democracy,it is rather a democratic republic and the following is why........ A distinction without a difference... Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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