bonnie Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 You started with the sarcasm and putdowns as is very typical for you.No problem,it doesn't ruin my day. Shane said we had a democracy,I said we had a democratic republic. Nothing you have said has convinced me we live in a democracy.But you have re-inforced your need to be sarcastic and insulting when a conservative disagrees with you. Tough. We live in a democratic republic whether you like it or not and I suspect that really isn't to the liking of most liberals. Unless I have it wrong even the pledge of allegiance makes it obvious It is not "I pledge allegiance to the United States and to the democracy which it stands" Official versions (changes in bold italics) 1892 "I pledge allegiance to my flag and the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." 1892 to 1923 "I pledge allegiance to my flag and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." 1923 to 1924 "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States and to the republic for which it stands: one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." 1924 to 1954 "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands; one nation indivisible with liberty and justice for all." 1954 to Present "I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all." The Pledge of Allegiance of the United States is an oath of loyalty to the national flag and the Republic of the United States of America, originally composed by Francis Bellamy in 1892 and formally adopted by Congress as the national pledge in 1942 Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 3, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 3, 2011 I do not think the framers were skewed or anti-government hacks. Obviously you do... You are intentionally twisting my words. You know very well that I was referring to the contemporary hack that you were originally quoting and not the framers or the founding fathers. As for your comment on sarcasm, I understand much of what you post as being very sarcastic. "Sarcasm is 'a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.' Though irony is usually the immediate context, most authorities sharply distinguish sarcasm from irony; however, others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony or employs ambivalence. Sarcasm has been suggested as a possible bullying action in some circumstances." Care to revisit what your father said? Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 3, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 3, 2011 This is what I said in the beginning "democratic republic" And that is why I said that insisting that a democratic republic is not a democracy is a "distinction without a difference." It is just semantics. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 As for your comment on sarcasm, I understand much of what you post as being very sarcastic. "Sarcasm is 'a sharp, bitter, or cutting expression or remark; a bitter jibe or taunt.' Though irony is usually the immediate context, most authorities sharply distinguish sarcasm from irony; however, others argue that sarcasm may or often does involve irony or employs ambivalence. Sarcasm has been suggested as a possible bullying action in some circumstances." Care to revisit what your father said? I did not come at you. Generally that is what you do. Sorry if you think I am being sarcastic when I don't believe the bible deals with graduated tax for the rich. I don't think the rich are required to pay more than 10% in tithe.Many do pay more.I pay more and I am certyainly not rich.That is not because somewhere it is demanded I pay more than 10% What I may do for others either financially or personally is not part of a graduated tax system. Taxes are secular and not the way God has instructed we take care of the poor etc. You go ahead and be content with your tax dollar taking care of your christian responsibility if that is the way you view it. I don't. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie This is what I said in the beginning "democratic republic" And that is why I said that insisting that a democratic republic is not a democracy is a "distinction without a difference." It is just semantics. To you perhaps. A democracy is 51% dictates to the other 49% Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 3, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 3, 2011 I think perhaps what is behind this strange denial that we live in a democracy is this idea as expressed by Wikipedia: "Liberal democracy, also known as constitutional democracy, is a common form of representative democracy. According to the principles of liberal democracy, elections should be free and fair, and the political process should be competitive. Political pluralism is usually defined as the presence of multiple and distinct political parties. A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms: it may be a constitutional republic; as the United States..." Just can't abide anything that is associated with liberal... Is this really what you understand as "democracy"? "Direct democracy is a form of government in which people collectively make decisions for themselves, rather than having their political affairs decided by representatives. Direct democracy is classically termed "pure democracy"... Direct democracy stands in contrast to a representative democracy in which the decisive authority is vested in a subset of people, usually on the basis of election." Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 3, 2011 Author Share Posted July 3, 2011 "Liberal democracy, also known as constitutional democracy, is a common form of representative democracy. According to the principles of liberal democracy, elections should be free and fair, and the political process should be competitive. Political pluralism is usually defined as the presence of multiple and distinct political parties. A liberal democracy may take various constitutional forms: it may be a constitutional republic; as the United States..." Just can't abide anything that is associated with liberal... Is this really what you understand as "democracy"? A democracy is rule by the majority. That is one of the reasons we have the electoral vote for president instead of majority vote. 51% deciding my religious freedom or any other is not appealing.We are in the process of getting there however You are right in that I do not agree with any liberal mind set. While I can agree with a concern or goals a liberal may have I do not agree with any of their methods to acheive those goals. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't think the rich are required to pay more than 10% in tithe. So you think that a rich man (let's define rich as making more than $250,000/year) will have no trouble standing before God on judgement day if he lived his whole life and never gave more than his 10% tithe? Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 "Direct democracy is a form of government in which people collectively make decisions for themselves, rather than having their political affairs decided by representatives..." I do not know of any nation governed in this way - past or present. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie I don't think the rich are required to pay more than 10% in tithe. So you think that a rich man (let's define rich as making more than $250,000/year) will have no trouble standing before God on judgement day if he lived his whole life and never gave more than his 10% tithe? What I think is you frequently like to add to what has been said. I was not in any way trying to determine someone's standing before God. That seems to be your job on this earth.You really are not in possesion of the personal facts of the life of the rich or anyone else besides your own family.Nor is it up to you to determine how much they should give of their finances. Tithe is 10% of your income.Nothing about that says anyone is required to pay more than that. That is between a rich man and God.Nor is there anything that says secular graudated tax on the wealthy is fulfilling what each of us should be doing.Doing because we feel it is the right thing to do and not because the government decides they need more money without getting their fiscal house in order. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Are offerings required beyond the 10% tithe? "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings ." (Malachi 3:8) Are the rich required to give more? "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded ; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked ." (Matthew 12:48) Seems pretty clear. I think I would rather listen to the Bible than Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck. The Bible seems to be more trustworthy/ Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Are offerings required beyond the 10% tithe? "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings ." (Malachi 3:8) Are the rich required to give more? "From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded ; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked ." (Matthew 12:48) Seems pretty clear. I think I would rather listen to the Bible than Rush Limbaugh and Glen Beck. The Bible seems to be more trustworthy/ I couldn't care less what you think Rush Limbaugh and Glenn Beck think. Nothing whatsoever to do with them God did not put a percentage on offerings.It did put a percentage on income. Of course I did not say we should not give more.Obama is not in charge of the "storehouse" as far as I know.Nor did God put you in chage to determine anyone's standing before him That is between a rich man and God. I repeat....Nor is there anything that says secular graduated tax on the wealthy is fulfilling what each of us should be doing.Doing because we feel it is the right thing to do and not because the government decides they need more money Obama's tax on luxury jets hasn't a thing to do with God Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 As you seem to be in charge of another's standing before God,tell me how much each should give? How much should the rich be taxed regardless of how it hurts employment or the economy? Do you give regularly every dime extra you have? Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 The economy is a dynamic thing. There is no one right policy that is good for all times. Sometimes tax increases are good, they can hold back inflation and slow down an economy that is growing too fast. There are so many variables. There are interest rates, international trade, unemployment, wars, prison populations and many other things that all play into the dynamics of an economy. I know the rich need to pay their part and it is only just, fair and Biblical that they pay a larger portion of their income than the poorer folks do. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Obama's tax on luxury jets hasn't a thing to do with God She's right you know... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 The economy is a dynamic thing. There is no one right policy that is good for all times. Sometimes tax increases are good, they can hold back inflation and slow down an economy that is growing too fast. There are so many variables. There are interest rates, international trade, unemployment, wars, prison populations and many other things that all play into the dynamics of an economy. I know the rich need to pay their part and it is only just, fair and Biblical that they pay a larger portion of their income than the poorer folks do. God never said anything about a larger percentage. That is Shane's bible. If I pay 10% on my income and someone else pays 10% on their million they are in fact paying more. Who do you think pays the bulk of the taxes now? I worked for a very wealthy international construction contractor.One year he and his wife paid in excess of 600,000.00 in federal income tax,while my husband and I paid in five digits. 47% do not pay any federal tax at all,plus many receive a check from the government. I have never worked for the 47% that do not pay federal taxes,neither has my husband. Maybe you have The rich did not get that way by collecting a federal check. Nor do they sit idly by as a runaway government takes more and more to fuel their idiotic spending. They produce less and work less,they go to the Bahama's as did the contractors my husband contracted with.They were not hurt,the welfare recipient was not hurt,but it sure put a sizable dent in our budget. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie Obama's tax on luxury jets hasn't a thing to do with God She's right you know... No matter how hard a liberal tries he cannot improve on God's plan.He can however screw it up. 10% minimum is a graduated tithe.You may pay more than I,I will pay more than someone else. God did not put a dollar amount to what my FREEWILL offering should be. In his wisdom he did not place the government in charge of my FREEWILL offerings. They are not to dictate what I give to charity or the single unwed mother I choose to help. Taxes and freewill offerings do not mean the same. Along with what those with more should do there is also the other side of the coin We did not eat anyone's bread free of charge but worked with labor day and night that we may not be a burden to any of you........... If anyone will not work he shall not eat... While trying to force "offerings and charitable donations" from the rich,keep the above in mind Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 If I pay 10% on my income and someone else pays 10% on their million they are in fact paying more. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 4, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 4, 2011 ...The rich did not get that way by collecting a federal check.Nor do they sit idly by as a runaway government takes more and more to fuel their idiotic spending... This is a variation on a theme you have repeated many times as if the only way they get and stay rich is by their hard work and as if it is only the lazy poor that are on the government dole. The truth is the rich do collect government checks, huge in some cases. Perhaps you missed these stories - http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2008/05/10 http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/27029 http://prairieweather.typepad.com/the_scribe/2008/01/free-lunch-davi.html "> " type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="350"> Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Sounds like a rich man's lullaby. I don't think it will sooth too many come judgement day. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted July 4, 2011 Administrators Share Posted July 4, 2011 ...People receiving food stamps do not pay federal income tax Not true. A family of four can qualify for food stamps while having a gross income of about $28,000/year. They would most likely pay income taxes. Not much, but after standard deductions they still have taxable income of $1600 in the 10% tax bracket or $160. A single person earning $12,000/year would qualify and still pay about $250 in federal income taxes. A married couple with no children earning as much as $18,000 would also qualify, but they would not have any taxable income for federal income tax purposes. And it is not just nonworking welfare recipients that qualify for and receive food stamps. The working poor and those that have lost their jobs and that are receiving unemployment compensation also can be eligible and do receive food stamps. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 I don't have time to look it up now but I believe it came from the CBO... The CBO says that the poor do not pay federal tax when they buy gasoline or use the telephone? All the federal tax money goes into the national treasury. It doesn't matter the method that it was collected. Corporate tax, personal income tax, gasoline tax, telephone tax, inheritance tax, Social Security tax, import tax, etc. all goes into the same "pot". The rich do pay a higher percentage of their income via income tax. The poor and middle class pay a higher percentage of their income via Social Security tax. We all decide how much gasoline and telephone tax we pay depending on our telephone plans and the type of car we decide to drive. This idea that the rich are treated unfairly by the tax code comes right out of the right-wing talk show circuit. That message ignores the tax burden placed on the poor and middle classes via taxes other than the personal income tax. To make such a claim and to repeat such a claim is misleading and very disingenuous. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Shane Posted July 4, 2011 Share Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie ...People receiving food stamps do not pay federal income tax The working poor and those that have lost their jobs and that are receiving unemployment compensation also can be eligible and do receive food stamps. And they pay Social Security tax which goes into the same "pot" with the rest of the federal revenue. Quote Pastoral Family Counselor... Find me at www.PostumCafe.com Author of Peculiar Christianity Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 And they pay Social Security tax which goes into the same "pot" with the rest of the federal revenue. I would hope they would pay something into Social Security. That however is not federal income tax. Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bonnie Posted July 4, 2011 Author Share Posted July 4, 2011 Originally Posted By: bonnie ...The rich did not get that way by collecting a federal check.Nor do they sit idly by as a runaway government takes more and more to fuel their idiotic spending... This is a variation on a theme you have repeated many times as if the only way they get and stay rich is by their hard work and as if it is only the lazy poor that are on the government dole. The truth is the rich do collect government checks, huge in some cases. Perhaps you missed these stories - http://www.coasttocoastam.com/show/2008/05/10 http://www.capitolhillblue.com/node/27029 http://prairieweather.typepad.com/the_scribe/2008/01/free-lunch-davi.html "> Quote Everything you do is based on the choices you make. It's not your parents, your past relationships, your job, the economy, the weather, an argument, or your age that is to blame. You and only you are responsible for every decision and choice you make, period ... ... Wish more people would realize this. Quotes by Susan Gottesman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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