CAN YOU EXPLAIN JESUS WORDS?

[miz3]

Quote:

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Matthew 7:15-19.

WHAT DOES THIS PASSAGE MEAN?

[miz3]

I am amazed that not one SDA let alone not one person period has no idea what this passage means!

These are the Words of Jesus Christ, as such they must bear great weight and importance and nobody can tell what this passage means?

[Musicman1228]

Quote:

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Matthew 7:15-19.

WHAT DOES THIS PASSAGE MEAN?

This is an easy one, miz3, and VERY relevant to what is happening on this forum, in the SDA church, and in the 'church' at large.

What does a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' look like? It looks like a sheep, not a wolf. And what is the purpose of a 'wolf in sheep's clothing'? To get into the sheep fold where are the sheep. Therefore, this type of entity AKA 'wolf in sheep's clothing' is a deception. And why does this deception work so well? Because the sheep in the sheepfold do not believe that God would EVER allow one of these entities to get into the sheep pen. And that, miz3, is why it works.

But Jesus did not leave us without a way of identifying them. The problem here is that only a few of the sheep recognize that there is a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' inside the pen. They see what is happening, they hear the deception, they try to sound the alarm but NO ONE is listening because they are 'fat, dumb and happy' eating up the fruit of this deception, and NOTHING will convince them that the fruit they are eating is anything but the real thing.

'Does good fruit come from a bad tree or a thorn bush?" What if the sheep have been conditioned over thousands of years to believe that the bad fruit is actually the good fruit? These deceived sheep would of course say, 'no way' could we possibly have been deceived like this, we are inside the safety of the sheep pen where no 'wolves in sheep's clothing' could get to us. Sadly this is just what has happened.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber.   (2) But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. John 10:1-2.

I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture. John 10:9.

Do you honestly believe that Jesus as the door of the sheep fold cannot tell the difference between one of His real sheep and the 'wolf in sheep's clothing'? This 'wolf in sheep's clothing' is NOT going to get in by the door, he/she is going to come over the fence. The purpose of the above passage is to teach the sheep to be vigilant, but unfortunately most are sound asleep and don't even want to know the difference.

If you don't know what the 'good fruit' is supposed to taste like then even bad fruit could taste good. If you are hungry you will eat anything. That is why Jesus said what He did in the above verses-to remind us from whence the good fruit comes, that is, ONLY from Him.

Anyone that says anything that is in any way different from the words and teachings of Jesus is a deceiver and there is no light in them. Jesus never promised an infallible source for truth within the sheep fold. He never promised us a 100% wholly inspired, inerrant, infallible Bible or prophetess that would only speak the truth. In fact in the above cited passage Jesus virtually guarantees that will not be the case. Why warn of a 'wolf in sheep's clothing' or say that there is a difference between good fruit and a good tree and bad fruit from a bad tree IF THERE WAS NOT GOING TO BE ANY BAD TREES OR BAD FRUIT.

A choice is always required of us. Without that choice we would only be robots functioning because of our programming. God does not work like this. Those that believe that God would never allow a deception to be in the Bible are already deceived, and the 'wolf in sheep's clothing' has already done his/her job on them. There are sheep in the sheep fold that are sounding the warning but very few are listening, most are ridiculing and mocking them and telling them that they are being rediculous in even suggesting that God would allow this kind of thing to happen. They LOVE the message that they KNOW to be true, and there is no way that they can recognize that that message is bad fruit from a bad tree.

In the end that bad tree will be cut down and burned along with all of the branches that followed the message of that bad tree. Those branches will never be grafted back onto a good tree, because they were bad, and bad branches can never be grafted onto a good tree.

Therefore, be careful about who and what you believe; test it against the only source of truth, that is Jesus Christ. Test what you now believe to be true and don't assume that just because you have believed it for years that it is true; or that if the church, or Paul, or EGW says it is true that it is. And if it isn't true then cut it off and burn it, and replace it with the good fruit that only comes from the true source, the words of Jesus Christ.

[miz3]

musicman1228,

Shocking as it may seem, I would give you an "A" for the answer you gave. There are a couple of items in my opinion that would keep you from getting that "A+"!

I do not choose at this time to dwell on the one or two little flaws because what you wrote is so good. I was pleasantly surprised! I thought I was going to get a whole lot of gobbilty gook but no such animal appeared.

Good Job! Thank you for a wonderful answer!

I do believe there are other ways to look at this passage that would add to the good job musicman1228 did.

[Guest]

I am amazed that not one SDA let alone not one person period has no idea what this passage means!

These are the Words of Jesus Christ, as such they must bear great weight and importance and nobody can tell what this passage means?

The reason nobody said anything is because everybody knows what it means, and they know that pretty much everybody else knows what it means also.

[miz3]

Then explain, RLH!

Help me out!

[Lysimachus]

The reason nobody said anything is because everybody knows what it means, and they know that pretty much everybody else knows what it means also.

Well said. The passage quoted is pretty self explanatory in my opinion.

[Dr. Rich]

musicman1228, Shocking as it may seem, I would give you an "A" for the answer you gave. There are a couple of items in my opinion that would keep you from getting that "A+"!

I do not choose at this time to dwell on the one or two little flaws because what you wrote is so good. I was pleasantly surprised! I thought I was going to get a whole lot of gobbilty gook but no such animal appeared. Good Job! Thank you for a wonderful answer!

I do believe there are other ways to look at this passage that would add to the good job musicman1228 did.

Yes, MM and I would agree to what it means in these verses. Now Miz3, can you please explain the words of Jesus found in Matthew 7:24-27?

[miz3]

Quote:

Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Matthew 7:15-19.

In addition to what musicman1228 said, and he did very well in his explanation, I would add the following.

Jesus uses three symbols of contrast here to make His point! The three symbols of contrast are the:

1. Sheep vs. Wolves in sheep's outerwear.

2. Grape vines, fig trees vs. thorn bushes, thistles.

3. Good trees vs. bad trees

In all three of these contrasts the things being contrasted are WHAT THEY ARE BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY ARE.

The sheep are sheep because they are sheep. They can only produce sheepness. They can only act, think, eat, sleep, etc. like sheep. It is IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO BE ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE THEY ARE WHAT THEY ARE!

The wolves in sheep's outerwear appear to be sheep but they are not. They are wolves! Even though they look outwardly like sheep they are not. As such these masqueraders can only act, eat, sleep, and behave in every way like wolves. It is IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO DO ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE THEY ARE WHAT THEY ARE "INWARDLY"!

Thus, Jesus Christ is warning us to watch carefully what kind of "fruit" or what kind of production something produces because eventually the real product will appear. Why? BECAUSE A THING IS WHAT IT IS BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT IT IS "INWARDLY"!

The same PRINCIPLE holds true for thornbushes, thistles, grape vines, fig trees, good trees, bad trees.

Jesus Christ used three examples to make sure that this VITAL PRINCIPLE would not be mistaken!

Quote:

THE PRINCIPLE: Things are what they are because of what they are. It is IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO BE ANYTHING ELSE BECAUSE THE INNER BEING DETERMINES WHAT KIND OF THING A THING IS! IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR THEM TO ANYTHING ELSE!

Therefore, humans are what they are because of what they are! It is IMPOSSIBLE FOR A HUMAN BEING TO BE ANYTHING BUT THE KIND OF HUMAN BEING THEY ARE BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT THEY ARE!

Jesus Christ was clearly debunking;

1. That humans are FREE MORAL AGENTS!

2. Beware and watchful of what kind of human being you associate with and identify with. They may appear on the outside to be "sheep" like you but inside they are "wolves". Thus, be careful and watchful! [the Pharisees for example].

In other words my friends you and I are "sinners" not because we "choose"???? to sin, but rather it is because inwardly we are "sinners"! You can't help what you are, because you are what you are!

The main moral of this parable is that you cannot change what you are! So what hope then is there for you?

JESUS CHRIST!

God in His own Words is telling us that Jesus Christ and what He did on the Cross will change our "wolfiness" to genuine "sheepness"! Only God through Jesus Christ and the working of the Holy Spirit can change what kind "animal", "plant", or "tree" we are!

WE ARE WHAT WE ARE BECAUSE WE ARE!

[skyblue888]

You mean, "No truth does the Bible more clearly teach than that what we do is the result of what we are." Education,146.

[skyblue888]

The ones against whom we are warned appearing in plural numbers in these last days are false Christs and false prophets. They come not as open enemies of the truth but as counterfeits of the truth. Among those who are opposed to the living truth are men so polite, courteous, helpful, calm, and nice that you would ask yourself, "How could such a person be the enemy of God? Outwardly he bears all the marks of conversion. Surely from all I can see of this man he is a true child of God." But do not be deceived. The ministers of unrighteousness come among us as angels of light to deceive and draw back God's people.

"Genius, talent, sympathy, even generous and kindly deeds, may become decoys of Satan to entice other souls over the precipice of ruin for this life and the life to come." M.B.94,5.

In the last days there will be miracles, genuine, undeniable miracles of apparent conversions worked by Satan's ministers. They will teach a message which appears to be the doctrine of Christ. It will look the same, sound the same, but the true people of God will know by His Word that it is not the same because there are distinct differences.

sky

[skyblue888]

Jesus never promised an infallible source for truth within the sheep fold. He never promised us a 100% wholly inspired, inerrant, infallible Bible or prophetess that would only speak the truth. In fact in the above cited passage Jesus virtually guarantees that will not be the case.

Musicman

Of course no man is infallible but God and His truth are. Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit, the Comforter, "the Spirit of truth," (John 14:16,17) who would guide us into all truth. (John 16:13; 1 John 2:20,27)

The Spirit is infallible. He speaks the truth and the truth only and He is an infallible commentator of the Word which He Himself has inspired.

So if we are led by the Spirit we shall know the truth and the truth will set us free. We shall be "able to distinguish between the work of God and that of man." 1 S.M.412.

"By the Spirit, He said, He would manifest Himself to them. 'The Conforter which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in My name, He shall teach you all things.' No more will you say, I cannot comprehend. No longer will you see through a glass darkly." D.A.672.

sky

[ClubV12]

"So if we are led by the Spirit we shall know the truth and the truth will set us free. We shall be "able to distinguish between the work of God and that of man." 1 S.M.412.

Sky, since you have openly questioned large parts of Ellen Whites writings as being forgeries you are unable to discern what parts are inspired and what parts are forgeries. There are NO forgeries what so ever in the writings of Ellen White, period. This makes your counsel exceedingly dangerous. You are the very fulfillment of the subject of this thread!

[Dr. Rich]

The ones against whom we are warned appearing in plural numbers in these last days are false Christs and false prophets. They come not as open enemies of the truth but as counterfeits of the truth. Among those who are opposed to the living truth are men so polite, courteous, helpful, calm, and nice that you would ask yourself, "How could such a person be the enemy of God? Outwardly he bears all the marks of conversion. Surely from all I can see of this man he is a true child of God." But do not be deceived. The ministers of unrighteousness come among us as angels of light to deceive and draw back God's people.

"Genius, talent, sympathy, even generous and kindly deeds, may become decoys of Satan to entice other souls over the precipice of ruin for this life and the life to come." M.B.94,5.

In the last days there will be miracles, genuine, undeniable miracles of apparent conversions worked by Satan's ministers. They will teach a message which appears to be the doctrine of Christ. It will look the same, sound the same, but the true people of God will know by His Word that it is not the same because there are distinct differences.

sky

Sky, this is NOT the words of Jesus! Far from it! The truth will not be from the bible, but from ONLY the words of Jesus Christ.

If you think that only the Holy Spirit can guide you correctly then you are leaving yourselp open for a great deception!

[skyblue888]

Jesus Himself and the testimonies tell us that if we are led by the Spirit we will be able to distinguish between the work of God and that of man. If men tamper with the Word of God or with the Testimonies the Spirit is more than able to make us aware of that by comparing Scripture with Scripture and statement with statement.

sky

[skyblue888]

No one can deny that there was a power struggle between the G.C. leaders (who had chosen darkness rather than light and therefore, as we are told, who did not know what spirit they were of and were continually turning things upside down) and those men whom they could not control according to their will. "They were determined to bring the individuals to their terms; they would rule or ruin." T.M.360.

I have read and studied the writings of Ellen White for almost 35 years now and I can say that the work is of God. In these inspired writings we are warned about organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God, would work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men and that fraud and guile would bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God. See T.M.366.

We would have to be very naive to think that men working under Satan's dictation would not be capable of tampering with the Scriptures or the Tesimonies of the Spirit of God. With the help of the Holy Spirit we may be able to distinguish between the work of God and the inventions of men who have departed from the light, men who would rule or ruin.

sky

[skyblue888]

It is not true that I reject "large portions" of her writings, only certain statements concerning A.T. Jones and Dr. Kellogg who were the two men that the apostate leaders of the G.C. were determined to rule over or ruin. When one reads "An Appeal," by A.T.Jones, everything becomes clear as to what really happened, how the ring leaders in apostasy were able to bring W.C. White under their control in order to give the impression, by the use of "testimonies" that the Lord was with them and not with A.T. Jones or Dr. Kellogg.

sky

[ClubV12]

Did God also allow parts of the bible to be forged by men, Sky? This is where your position will lead men. Questioning which parts of the counsel of God are forgeries is a wolf, disguised as a sheep and will confuse and mislead many.

[skyblue888]

"My heart aches to see presidents of conferences taking the burden of selecting those whom they think they can mold to work with them in the field. They take those who will not differ with them, but will act like mere machines. No president has any right to do this." Ibid, 304,305.

"Suppose the statement of others do not agree with our ideas. Shall we, for this, pronounce them heresy? Shall we, uninspired men, take the responsibility of placing our stakes, and saying, 'this shall not be in print?' Will we ever realize that the consciences of men are not given into our command? If you have appointed committees to do the work which has been going on for years in Battle Creek, dismiss them; and remember that God, the infinite God, has not placed men in any such positions as they occupied at Minneapolis, and have occupied since then." T.M. 293-295.

sky

[ClubV12]

Dr. Rich, for instance, is not a wolf in sheeps clothing, he freely admits he doesn't believe in large sections of the New Testament as inspired. No attempt to decieve, he's straight up about it.

miz3 often claims much of what Ellen White wrote was her "own opinion", thats his opinion, it's clear where he stands on that.

But you, Sky, claim that much of what Ellen White wrote are forgeries, written under her name, inserted into her Testimonies by men under false pretenses. God is able to protect His work, now, just as He did in bible times. To think less, is to doubt His power.

Claiming a forgery is much more serious than having an opinion, like Dr. Rich has. THIS is the very epitome of what this thread is about!!! A wolf, claiming great light, quoting Ellen White and scripture, an appearance of piety and trust worthiness and yet ultimately declaring the works to be forgeries.

[skyblue888]

Did God also allow parts of the bible to be forged by men, Sky? This is where your position will lead men. Questioning which parts of the counsel of God are forgeries is a wolf, disguised as a sheep and will confuse and mislead many.

Club, let us not be daff spiritually. There are no forgeries in the Bible. There may be forged testimonies because men can easily write something and pass that off as "testimony from the Lord." Shouldn't have to explain that. I am talking about false interpretations of the Word in order to bring men under the control of men. The Jews did it and the Catholics did it and the so-called protestants are doing it and even those who claim to have advanced truth, are using Satan's methods to justify their principles. "Satan's methods tend to one end--to make men the slaves of men." T.M.361. "Satan's methods are practiced among Seventh-day Adventists who claim to have advanced truth." Idem,366.

I quoted the Testimonies to you warning us about fraud and guile bearing the semblance of zeal for truth from those in responsible positions within God's professed church. We cannot afford to close a blind eye to these statements.

No offense to you but it is seems to me that you are not able to take strong meat yet. Your zeal at this point is worthy of a better cause.

sky

[ClubV12]

Sky says,

"There may be forged testimonies because men can easily write something and pass that off as "testimony from the Lord."

Men could have just as easily forged Pauls work or Moses work as they could have forged Ellen Whites work. There is no difference, forgery then, forgery now. In fact Paul took steps to keep me from forging his work, as did Ellen White. You either trust God in this, or you don't.

You make a claim to trust Him in this regard and yet insuate that He is unable to protect the work of His prophetess, Ellen White, in her writings. Thus, you cast doubt on the entire of her work. This is indeed strong meat, and you have lost your ability to discern because you question God's ability to lead and conserve His work.

[skyblue888]

There are some here who claim to believe all of the Testimonies and yet when certain testimonies like the ones I have just quoted above from T.M.361,366 are read, "Satan's methods tend to one end--to make men the slaves of men." T.M.361. "Satan's methods are practiced among Seventh-day Adventists who claim to have advanced truth." Idem,366, or like this one, "The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear," (T.M.366) these are brushed aside or totally ignored as to be too negative or not worthy of the attention of those who are seeking for truth.

Statements like these, warning us about men in responsible positions who are using Satan's methods to justify their principles, "putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men" (T.M.481) in order "to bring the individuals to their terms," (T.M.360) men whose motto is "rule or ruin," (T.M.360) should arrest our attention and cause us to be more cautious when reading anything that is called "testimony" outside Mrs. White's books and periodicals.

sky

[skyblue888]

In the past I have shared a perfect example of what this means.

In the book Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.377 is found a letter allegedly written by Mrs. White sent to A.T. Jones shortly after the 1893 General Conference during which brother Jones, under the movings of the Spirit of God, gave the best studies dealing with the subject of faith and works.

Yet, in that alleged letter written to him by Mrs. White after that conference, she would be saying something to the effect that as a result of these studies minds had been confused. Yet in the bulletin of that year these studies themselves were said to be the 1888 message in greater measure of the Spirit.

I have shared the reason why this letter on page 377 of 1 S.M. must be looked upon as suspicious for the simple reason that in the same book, Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.130, is found a testimony which says the very opposite. Here Mrs White is speaking of what happened at the last Conference (1893) and she says that "because these blessings were not lived up to, minds have been confused." She says, "the light from Heaven has been called excitement." p.130.

sky

[ClubV12]

Well there it is Sky, here we see you posting Ellen White quotes and making your case they are forgeries. Not mere opinion, but forgeries by men, writing under the name of Ellen White. I'm afraid once you started down the path of declaring the GC to be in apostasy that led to your conclusion EGW's counsel to them (and Kellogg) was forged. Now any part of her writings (that you don't agree with) are called into question.

miz3 asked what the verse meant in this thread, here we have an example of precisely what it means.

Sky, your sheeps clothing has been revealed. Don't underestimate the discernment of a "newbie". One who is unencumbered by years of "tradition". Unconfused by years of study, which in many cases never leads those steeped in the truth, to find the truth.

I wonder, was it reading Kelloggs book that has led to this, or did that come after...

So far we have established 1893 as the earliest date to begin questioning of the Ellen Whites writings as forgeries, in Sky's opinion. That moves back by a full ten years the previous date of 1903. Where will it stop?