wayfinder Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 Is John writing his words as he understands what he saw and heard or is he writing the words as God gave them to him and describing as he saw them. In other words, is John writing his own words or the words of God? In my studies of apocalyptic prophecy, I have found that a event that is a reflection (points back) is exactly that, a reflection. Revelation 22:7,12,13,16 reflect back to Revelation 1:3,8,17; 3:3; 16:15 and so forth. One other thing, I do find that the message to Sardis appears to be speaking to the ten sleeping bridesmaids. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted July 31, 2011 Share Posted July 31, 2011 How own words or directly inspired words? Tricky question with no clear cut answer, that is also an issue with Ellen Whites writings. Even when she states, "I was shown..", or "I saw...". How about, "I was told..." In any regard, the specifics have never bothered me that much one way or the other. It's the end result that counts, the body of work. We do have, from her, some interesting insights as to how inspiration works though. She talks about at times hesitating to write, not being sure, then it would come forcefully to her. As well as reports of angels standing by her side while writing. Daniel is another good expample, direct inspiration of the words? Not likely word for word. But no doubt the body of work is inspired! Both Ellen White AND Paul at times relied not on direct inspiration, but the reports given to them by others. Verbal or written, as the case might be. Reports from "uninspired" people. Paul was given incorrect information at times, as was Ellen White! But we all rely to some degree on the "reports" of others, life is like that. DOCTRINE is NOT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted July 31, 2011 Author Share Posted July 31, 2011 According to Mervyn C. Maxwell's "God Cares" book on Revelation (book 2), he places the chiasm with Revelation 11:19 as the introductory to the great controversy scene, and puts it as 11:19 - 14:20. So from what it seems, Adventism closes the scene of the 7th trumpet from 11:15-18, and opens up a new chapter in verse 19. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I question that theory (Mervyn C. Maxwell's)here is why. Revelation 8:2-5, here God's people are presenting their prayers before God mixed with smoke and incense from the censer. Then the fire is removed from the alter (of incense) and placed in the censer and the censer is cast to the earth. This would be indicitive of the end of atonement, so it would appear that if Revelation 11:19 begans the atonement account and ends at 14:20 how would one explain the purpose of the casting down of the censer? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Musicman1228 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Rev. 11:15 is either the end of the Great Tribulation or it is not. If it is the end then v. 19 CANNOT have happened in 1844 as specified by EGW. If it IS NOT the end of the Great Tribulation the Jesus did not give John consistent information, and deliberately confused the issue. Also, then what event in prophecy defines the transfer of the kingdoms? I'm confused. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truth Files Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Revelation 19 The things that you have seen [John's experience in the first century] The things that are [the existence of the Lord's church on the earth .... and still running at this time] The things that shall be hereafter [Revelation's unfolding of future future still pending at this time] John's spirit is then taken to heaven to view the future time of the end of this present age [Revelation 4:1] Revelation has a few historical reach backs [Revelation 12:1-5 [history of Satan's activity with regard to Israel and the Lord]; 13:1-2 [history of the past rule of Satan's beast]; 17:3-7 [history of the "woman" [lost humanity]; 17:9-11 [history of the beast's past rule over human kingdoms]] given for overview .... but all of the rest is still to come Quote Stephen - Author - Truth Files Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 I question that theory (Mervyn C. Maxwell's)here is why.Revelation 8:2-5, here God's people are presenting their prayers before God mixed with smoke and incense from the censer. Then the fire is removed from the alter (of incense) and placed in the censer and the censer is cast to the earth. This would be indicitive of the end of atonement, so it would appear that if Revelation 11:19 begans the atonement account and ends at 14:20 how would one explain the purpose of the casting down of the censer? So you are against Ellen White's placement of Revelation 11:19, or for it? For or against? Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I have questions about the timing of certain fulfillments of events, as they have been presented to us in the past, that don't appear to fit within the context of the information given. I don't see it as "for or against" someone personally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 I have questions about the timing of certain fulfillments of events, as they have been presented to us in the past, that don't appear to fit within the context of the information given. I don't see it as "for or against" someone personally. I'm just trying to figure out where you're coming from, that's all. I hope you didn't take offense. You have no idea how many people come into forums like these snooping, pretending to be Adventists, but are really out to find fault with them. I don't have a problem if you disagree. If you disagree, then you disagree. But I like it when people are just upfront from the start, then we can move on without wondering where a person stands. If you know what I mean. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Thank you for that clarification. I prefer to be honest with myself no matter what the cost, and you appear to have that same self honesty. As far as apocalyptic prophecy, I have an understanding that makes sense to me. When I was growning up, my dad (an SDA minister) held many an evangelistic meeting. He had hugh plywood cutouts of the image of Dan 2 and the beasts of Daniel and Revelation, it made quite an impression on me, but it never made sense. It now makes sense to me, that does not make it true or correct, and that is why I enjoy dialogue with others who have the same interest and desire to understand. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 Thank you for that clarification. I prefer to be honest with myself no matter what the cost, and you appear to have that same self honesty. As far as apocalyptic prophecy, I have an understanding that makes sense to me. When I was growning up, my dad (an SDA minister) held many an evangelistic meeting. He had hugh plywood cutouts of the image of Dan 2 and the beasts of Daniel and Revelation, it made quite an impression on me, but it never made sense. It now makes sense to me, that does not make it true or correct, and that is why I enjoy dialogue with others who have the same interest and desire to understand. That's excellent. My dad was an SDA minister too. I'm a 4th gen. And even though my parents did an excellent job at educating me, much of it went in one ear and out the other because I just wasn't interested in studying. Computer games absorbed my interest. It wasn't until I almost lost my leg in 2004 that I really took a deeper plunge into studying like never before. I'm almost 33 now, so have had about 13 years of study under my belt, but especially the last 7. After years of studying, and comparing Scripture with Scripture, I look back and I'm thankful to my parents for the way they brought me up, and I'm more convinced than ever before than Ellen White was truly inspired and that the pillars of our faith are truly standing on a solid platform. Because of this decision on my part to believe it, the Lord has blessed me greatly. The Scriptures have been illuminated to me like never before, and my passion is to defend this truth until the day I die, to vindicate Adventism and the Historicist Hermeneutic in the face of the great Futurist onslaught that is emanating from the False Prophet. It saddens me to no end the great amount of energy Adventists invest to cast doubts on one another about certain tenants of our faith, and will even write books refuting one another and exercise their energies in proving one another wrong. All the while they are doing this, the Jaws of Rome are clasping around their necks tighter and tighter, as the False Prophet makes fools out of them. If Adventists could only feel that sense of urgency to unite, and heed the counsels that come from that marvelous gift of Inspired Writ through the Spirit of Prophecy. If they would do this, they would not be swept away by every wind of doctrine flying to and fro. If they would only just trust her. Every single Protestant will voice a different "opinion" of how the chronological aspects of Revelation should be interpreted. Every single one! This is why it is more essential to have a guiding gift in these last days than it has ever been before. Even if the Biblical words written do not seem to make sense to us, we believe the explanation given by that guiding gift by FAITH, just like the prophets of old had to guide the understandings of the Jews concerning previous writings of other Old Testament prophets that lived before them. Let us make up our minds to move forward and come together under one banner, so that we will be a wonder and amazement to our foes! In Christ, Marcos Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I am a 3rd generation Seventh-day Adventist and just turned 59. I also wish to unite the people of God, the Seventh-day Adventists under one banner, that is the banner of truth. My prayer is that the Spirit of Truth will lead us to that goal. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Wayfinder, aren't you a partner with Dr. Rich and support that theology and web site that denies the fundamental SDA beliefs? Along with Music Man? ...perhaps I'm mistaken, but it was noted that many people come here and have the appearance of being Seventh-day Adventists, may even be members of that church. But they are certainly not Seventh-day Adventists in spirit or theology. If this is true, your "spirit of truth" denies Paul is an inspired author of the bible, not to mention Ellen White and the 2,300 year prophecy and much more. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Correct me if I am wrong, but was the Son of God in agreement with the spirit and theology of the the scribes and religious authorities of His day? I follow the Son of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 OK, thanks for verifying that. It's a shame, and worse, you guys claim to be Seventh-day Adventists, nothing could be further from the truth. At least Dr. Rich is quite clear where he is coming from, your stealth mode attacks on the SDA church are considerably more subtle. So, what was the latest date you set for the second coming? October 8 this year I believe it was. Don't hold your breath.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted August 1, 2011 Author Share Posted August 1, 2011 VERY interesting! Hmmmmm..... wow. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Maybe MusicMan would like to comment on the most recent October 8th date as well? ...gotta watch your back at all times around here Lysimachus, you can never be sure where folks is comin' from. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 First of all, I have not set a date for the second comming. Did you notice the quotation marks around what I said. That is what I heard on the morning of June 19th. I "heard it in my head, like words you hear when you read silently to yourself. I guess we don't have long to see if what I "heard" was or was not all in my head. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Hmmmm, I'm not sure if it's more scary you "heard" the date or reasoned it out from prophecy! Perhaps it's part of the classic what came first, chicken or egg, syndrome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I really don't mean to scare you. I didn't know what to think when I heard it and actually I didn't think much of it until I looked at the calendar and saw that that was the day of Atonement this year, and what the odds of my mind arbitrarilly picking that day. The other thing is, I don't usually refer to the Son of God as The Almighty. Revelation 1:8 NAS "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 1, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 1, 2011 Satan and the demons speak to people, too. When people reject the Holy Spirit's voice speaking to them through the Scriptures and attribute it to the devil, there's nothing more that God can do but abandon them to Satan. Attributing to Satan the work of the Spirit is the unforgiveable sin, because God can only speak to us through the Spirit. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 And your point is? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 1, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 1, 2011 That voices must be tested by the Bible, and that the mere hearing of a voice is no evidence that it comes from God. 1 John 4:1 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Isaiah 8:20 To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 I agree! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 1, 2011 Share Posted August 1, 2011 Oh man, I feel almost sick to my stomach, when considering the serious life and death decisions each of us have made and will make along the path. I need to draw closer to Jesus, do not forsake me Lord, don't let me grieve your Holy Spirit. May I realize and find that true repentance, from the heart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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