Revisit The Book of Daniel with a Heretical Baptist

[JawgeFromJawja]

Daniel Revisited – Views of a Heretical Baptist

Background

If you are such a victim of ennui that you need to explore this topic with a heretical Baptist, please allow me to provide some background information.

You Adventists are all either crazy, confused, functionally dyslectic while reading The Bible, ignorant, or just disinterested. Before you storm off in a huff, please

understand that Baptists also are all (except me ) either crazy, confused, functionally dyslectic while reading The Bible, ignorant, or just disinterested. The

only reason that I even admit to being a Baptist is that of all the Protestants, Baptists are marginally less crazy, confused, functionally dyslectic while reading The Bible, ignorant, or just disinterested than the rest.

However,if the Southern Baptist Church cared to investigate my beliefs closely, they would excommunicate me immediately,while considering reverting temporarily to medieval practices and sentencing me to flagyllation, rack tortue, and a slow burn at the stake. Adventists are somewhat more merciful: most of their officials prefer to wait until my final moment after judgment when their idea of a mercififul and loving God is that He will hurl me screaming in terror to be consumed in the Lake of Fire for my sin of weighing all available evidence and reaching conclusions at variance with some, if not most, of the current 28 Fundamental Beliefs of the Seventh Day Adventist Church.

God forbid that I should even consider the Catholic Church, even though I just love pomp and ceremony. The Catholic Church is even crazier, more confused, more ignorant, and more disinterested than all Protestant Churches, not to mention exhibiting a general lack of compassion and a whole catalog of inhuman abuses of both Catholics and non-Catholics. I espoused atheism for a spell, but proponents of that stance are all mind dead. (As opposed to brain dead. Saint

Paul thought the mind and brain were separate. See 2 Corithians 12: 1 – 5)

Club Adventist forum leaders and members have been very kind to me since I enrolled last year at the behest of my Seventh Day Adventist wife of then over 51 years. She had expressed concern about some of my residual bitterness towards certain of our Adventist relatives and acquaintances. Strange that she should want some sort of intervention into that now: over the 52 years of our marriage, much of my rancor has dissipated simply from the passage of time and interactions at family gatherings, church activities, and other encounters. One helpful thing in the dissolution of my residual rancor has

been my renewed commitment to Christ in 1980, after renouncing my professed atheism of circa 1960 to 1975. The maturing and mellowing (some call it wisdom) that often comes with aging from 21 to 73 has also helped to clear undesirable negative

feelings.

Now to step on a lot of sets of toes. In several posts to follow, if otherwise saint-like Steve and others don't show me the door, I’m gonna say that The Adventist doctrines ostensibly based on the Book of Daniel are not only wrong, they are far off track. Then this arrogant heretical Baptist is gonna show you why those doctrines are wrong.

I pray for God’s guidance and blessings for all of us who jointly participate in this exercise.

Lemme say that I love all you wonderful Adventists and the motley mixed crowd of non-Adventists on this forum. In doctrine, George Collier King has become a Church orphan. Since renouncing atheism, my doctrine has become the Spiritual Message of The Bible, as God leads me to understand it, and I accept no Church creed. None of 'em have it right except for the one that matters, faith in God through Jesus Christ for salvation.

Agape (Ugh ahppy)

JawgeFromJawja

[John317]

Sounds good. Go for it, George. :-)

[JawgeFromJawja]

Book of Daniel Revisited - Jawge's Second Installment

Most of us realize that the Book of Daniel is a source of heated controversy among Jews and among Christians, and even between Jews and Christians. The controversy even begins with the date of writing of Daniel, who wrote it, and why it was written. I won’t introduce such sticky scholastic topics, but they are certainly appropriate to the study of Daniel if anyone else is brave enough, educated enough, or perhaps even foolish enough to broach such stuff.

My position on Daniel is that it was inspired by God no matter its origins, date of writing, or historical authenticity. The importance of Daniel is the spiritual message, not the accuracy of portrayed events. Which statement would have definitely got me burned 400 years ago, and which even now makes me a heretic (an? heretic) to both Baptists and Adventists. To paraphrase Rhett Butler, Frankly, my dear, I don’t give a rip. One’s position on the historicity of Daniel has nothing to do with salvation. However, one of the most important spiritual messages of Daniel is that God works in and through the affairs of mankind and influences us humans as the highest, final and ultimate authority in and of creation.

Ostensibly, Daniel was written by one of the noble Jews captured from Judea and carted away to Babylon into enforced exile circa 587 BC. Being especially favored by God, Daniel achieved an exalted position with the Babylonians, with the great influence attendant to high position. See Daniel Chapters 1, 2, and 3.

In Chapter 2, Nebuchadnezzar King of Babylon had a disturbing dream. We all (I hope) know the details of that dream. The upshot of the dream is that it was a prophecy outlining the history of the Western world from Nebuchadnezzar’s Babylon possibly through the Roman Empire. I believe the dream does extend through the Roman Empire because of verse 2: 24 -

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other people. It shall break in pieces and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

The irresitable impetus for God’s Kingdom to be spread throughout the world really began during the Roman Empire and Rome’s interactions with Christianity. Now a bunch of you are gonna flame me and point out that God’s Kingdom has never been actualized on Earth, particularly during the first four or five centuries since Jesus. And I’m gonna respond with

Luk 17:21 King James Version (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

Unfortunately, the translation of that verse varies, and is quite open to debate. Heated debate. Look at The Literal Translation of The Holy Bible, one of my favorites:

Luk 17:21 nor will they say, Lo, here! Or, Lo, there! For behold the kingdom of God is in your midst.

Ole George King prefers the KJV, which would probably indicate the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom. That’s what my relatively unschooled (6th grade) daddy, a deist, in effect taught me. Deists believe God created the Universe, then departed, leaving us to our own devices. He constantly said that God is in our hearts. Strange position for a deist, but daddy’s belief system had all kinds of inconsistencies, just like most people (except me, of course. )

Agape (the less elegant pronunciation but more sublime meaning)

JawgeFromJawja

[JawgeFromJawja]

JAWGEFROMJAWJA

WELL that is an interesting post you made

so you are against all organized religious groups

is my understanding????

so you want to just go by the BIBLE ONLY????

so then you should observe the Sabbath Day

the BIBLE says we should gather together on this day

as the time nears the end

you should not eat any unclean meat--drink any alcohol..

smoke any cigarettes...this is keeping the body temple clean

you should believe that JESUS was the creator of this earth

so then JESUS created us--HE redeemed us--HE sanctified us

HE substances us

you should believe that JESUS is our High Priest in Heaven

so that is what the S.D.A. Christians believe

so maybe we are not all that crazy if we believe this

from the BIBLE ONLY

just thinking

Wow! A buncha comments. Start with

"so then you should observe the Sabbath Day"

Look at

Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; ---

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Passages that indicate the Sabbath mandate was for Israel.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Still nothing that mandates Sabbath keeping for non-Jews not dwelling among Israel.

But look:

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

These passages makes it quite clear that Sabbath keeping was between God and Israel.

If you accept that mandate, okay. But you must also accept the mandate to put to death anyone else who declares acceptance of that mandate, but breaks it. Have you put anyone to death who has broken the Sabbath? I personally know many Adventists who have broken the Sabbath, usually rationalizing their actions as not really breaking the spirit of that mandate. Let’s see, working on the Sabbath from gardening to gainful employment, traveling commercially on the Sabbath, and on and on. If an Adventist were killed for such, the headlines would scream!

Or have you more mercifully just cut off any Sabbath breaker from your people instead of killing them? Of all the Adventists I know, none of them has been excommunicated or shunned following gross violation of Sabbath rules.

No. You do not keep the Sabbath as it was mandated. There is no scripture changing the mandates to kill or cut off those who break the Sabbath.

Then there are New Testament mandates. None of the passages in the New Testament innumerating God’s commmandments explicitly lists Sabbath keeping as a commandment.

Just two of them:

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

This was from Jesus Himself.

Rom 13:8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.

Rom 13:9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Rom 13:10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Oh, well, this is just St. Paul’s opinion. At least one forum participant denounces Paul as a liar and enemy.

However, there are other reviews of God's commandments in the New Testament. None of them lists Sabbath keeping.

Agape

JawgeFromJawja

[JawgeFromJawja]

JAWGEFROMJAWJA

so you are against all organized religious groups

is my understanding????

I am not against any organized religious group so long as they do not pose a physical threat to me. Not even if they teach pistachio ice cream must be eaten every Wednesday to assure salvation.

It would be ideal if organized religion taught only Bible based doctrines. Unfortunately, that just is not going to happen, but prevailing ignorance (no joke this time) is one reason for us to know The Bible cover to cover, which I repeatedly admonish to the point of irritation. Doctrines counter to The Bible are all too prevalent, and it is only with a thorough knowledge of Scripture that we can recognize subtle heresy and heterodoxy. The vast majority of Christians, including Adventists and Baptists, just do not READ The Bible.

[JawgeFromJawja]

JEWGEFORMJAWJA

the bible tell us that we are to pattern our

life after JESUS

JESUS is out pattern to live by

if we to honor and worship GOD then we need

to follow by example

ALL though JESUS life honored and observed the Sabbath

even in JESUS death HE honor and observed the Sabbath

after JESUS death all the disciples honored and

observed the sabbath

it was the Catholic church that changed the day of worship

there are 3 Sabbaths to choose from

GOD' SABBATH which represent a spiritual and physical

relationship with GOD

the Jewish Sabbath which represents a person working

their way to a relationship with GOD

the Catholic Sabbath which represents a person being

forced to worship with GOD

so we all have to decide which sabbath we want to keep

dgrimm60

dgrimm60, with as much politeness as possible, that argument is a sophistry. First of all, where does The Bible tell us to pattern the details of our lives after Jesus? The over all requirement is that we live and act in God-like love, which is much more difficult than practicing unnecessary minutiae.

Jesus lived His life as a first century male Jew. If you pattern your life after his, you are gonna have to live just as a first century Jew. Seders. Other religious festivals. Ritual cleanliness. Jesus own example of self imposed poverty. Now really, did Jesus mean for us to do all that? However, if it makes you feel good, do it. It is just not necessary for salvation. And what a burden.

Agape

JawgeFromJawja

[JawgeFromJawja]

Dgrimm, the operative word is love. So simple. And so difficult.

Love,

JawgeFromJawja

[JawgeFromJawja]

JAWGEFROMJAWJA

The issue here is not to prove if Sunday or Saturday

is the right day to go to church

the issue is a worship issue...if we are to worship

and honor GOD we will want to follow all every thing

GOD wants us to do

if we do not want to worship GOD the way the bible

talks about then we are not worshiping GOD at all

we have 2 choice we either GOD

or we worship our selfs (aka the devil)

that is the bottom line here

dgrimm60

So, the issue really becomes whether God wants Christians to worship as do the Jews. There is nothing in The Bible mandating such. Or show me. (JawgeFromJawja, not Missouri)

[JawgeFromJawja]

dgrimm60, please do not misunderstand my respect for you. My Yankee sister was a teacher. I respect and love all teachers who are committed to molding young minds in the truth.

For all your verbiage and Scripture quoting, you have not shown with Scriptural passages, from the New Testament especially, that God meant for Christians to keep the Sabbath.

Again, show me. You have not so far.

In the matter of the Sabbath, you are like most Adventists. You are far off the track about the Sabbath as mandated for Christians.

Again, show me. Just show me. But only with explicit passages.

Agape,

JawgeFromJawja

[JawgeFromJawja]

JJAWGEFROMJAWJA

you are missing the point

like I say there are 3 Sabbaths one can chose to worship

Yes, dgrimm60, as you say.

GOD SABBATH which represents a spiritual and physical

relationship with GOD

Yes, for Israel. This is Biblical.

the Jewish Sabbath which represents a person who

is working to have a relationship with GOD

Yes, for Jews. A wonderful people.

the Catholic Sabbath which is being forced to have

a relationship with GOD by following what the

Catholic church says

Who pays any attention to the Catholic Church anymore? Anyway, Christians were keeping Sunday hundreds of years before the Catholic Church, God bless 'em, decreed that Sunday was the proper day to worship God.

though out the bible from the beginning to the end

it was about who the people will worship

THE TRUE GOD

or idols or man's religion

and that is what is the issue today

will a person worship GOD of the bible

or will people worship as the choose

Dear mercy, are your thinking processes scrambled and indoctrinated! Anti-Catholicism, anti-non-SDAism, and a general condemnation to The Fiery Pit for any non-SDA Christian. I am thankful that God is not as rigid and judgmental as you.

most Christians do not really study the bible

to find out what it says they just rely on

what is said by the minister or what they have

heard other church members say

As I have said before, you got that right! Most Christians, Adventists included, simply do not know, KNOW, The Bible. Pity.

dgrimm60

[John317]

For all your verbiage and Scripture quoting, you have not shown with Scriptural passages, from the New Testament especially, that God meant for Christians to keep the Sabbath.

When was the new covenant ratified?

Does God need to give you a commandment again in order for you to realize He is serious?

[JawgeFromJawja]

JAWGEFORMJAWJA

have you not heard that a lot of Christians of today

call then selves spiritual Israel

so what applies to Physical Israel applies to spiritual Israel

dgrimm60

dgrimm, where is the Scripture for this? The concrete Scripture, not sophistry.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

For all your verbiage and Scripture quoting, you have not shown with Scriptural passages, from the New Testament especially, that God meant for Christians to keep the Sabbath.

When was the new covenant ratified?

Does God need to give you a commandment again in order for you to realize He is serious?

John, Christ Himself gave us the relevant commandments for non-Jews. One more time:

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which?

"Which?"

This is such a simple question. The question demands an explicit answer, which Jesus gave to the young man.

Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Jesus' explicit answer does not include keeping the Sabbath. Surely if keeping the Sabbath were necessary, Jesus would have said so. He did not say so. It is not at all persuasive to argue that keeping the Sabbath is so obvious that Jesus need not say so. You could certainly say the same for murder, which Jesus did include in the list.

Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

There is just no Scriptural mandate for non-Jews to keep the Sabbath.

[John317]

When was the new covenant ratified?

Does God need to give you a commandment again in order for you to realize He is serious?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

John, Christ Himself gave us the relevant commandments for non-Jews. One more time:

Yeah but you didn't answer my question, the first one above. When was the new covenant ratified?

[JawgeFromJawja]

John, I'm not sure about the meaning of your question. As Jesus died, He said, "It is finished."

Is that what you are looking for?

[John317]

OK, you know when the Old Covenant was ratified, right?

It was in Ex. 24: 8 and again in Ex. 34.

It was confirmed with the shedding of the blood of bulls.

The new Covenant was ratified or confirmed by the blood of Christ on the cross.

[John317]

Are you familiar with this verse?

Gal. 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Paul is saying that once a covenant is ratified, it cannot be added to.

So the question is when did Sunday become a sacred day and part of the Christian calender? And when did the Sabbath cease to be God's holy day?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Are you familiar with this verse?

Gal. 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though [it be] but a man's covenant, yet [if it be] confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

Paul is saying that once a covenant is ratified, it cannot be added to.

So the question is when did Sunday become a sacred day and part of the Christian calender? And when did the Sabbath cease to be God's holy day?

Keeping the Sabbath never ceased to be a part of God's covenant with Israel. Keeping the Sabbath was never part of the New Covenant. Keeping the Sabbath has nothing to do with God's plan for salvation. Nor does a mandate for Christians to keep the Sabbath have a Scriptural basis.

God's love and peace,

[JawgeFromJawja]

There are passages in the New Testament clearly stating that The Law of Moses is not necessary for salvation. One such passage:

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.

Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

This so plainly says that keeping the Law does not save, and is not necessary for salvation: salvation is through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ. The passage further reveals that the Jewish fathers were not able to bear the yoke of the Law anyway.

Even so, attaining salvation does not license us to break the Laws of Love so plainly clarified by Jesus, AGAIN, in Matthew 19: 16 - 21, repeated here for emphasis:

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Keeping the Sabbath was not enumerated among the commandments Jesus did require of the young ruler. Unfortunately for him, he could not possibly keep the positive commandment of love required of him BY JESUS.

Now don't get peeved. The operational word is love. LOVE.

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Luk 8:12 Those by the way side are they that hear; then cometh the devil, and taketh away the word out of their hearts, lest they should believe and be saved.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

We are saved by faith in God through Jesus Christ.

Joh 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Act 2:21 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved.

So, the First Epistle of John:

1Jn 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

1Jn 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

1Jn 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

1Jn 4:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

1Jn 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

1Jn 4:16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

1Jn 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

1Jn 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

1Jn 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Luk 7:50 And he said to the woman, Thy faith hath saved thee; go in peace.

Agape,

[teresaq]

Book of Daniel Revisited - Jawge's Second Installment

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other people. It shall break in pieces and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

The irresitable impetus for God’s Kingdom to be spread throughout the world really began during the Roman Empire and Rome’s interactions with Christianity. Now a bunch of you are gonna flame me and point out that God’s Kingdom has never been actualized on Earth, particularly during the first four or five centuries since Jesus. And I’m gonna respond with

Luk 17:21 King James Version (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

...

Ole George King prefers the KJV, which would probably indicate the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom. That’s what my relatively unschooled (6th grade) daddy, a deist, in effect taught me. Deists believe God created the Universe, then departed, leaving us to our own devices. He constantly said that God is in our hearts. Strange position for a deist, but daddy’s belief system had all kinds of inconsistencies, just like most people (except me, of course. )

Agape (the less elegant pronunciation but more sublime meaning)

JawgeFromJawja

Referring to the topic, I know an influential person in our church, long dead, who fully agrees with you. But, that does not take away that it is meant literally also.

I believe the bible uses "kingdom of God" in two different senses and that we need to know which is which, and what they are.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Book of Daniel Revisited - Jawge's Second Installment

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other people. It shall break in pieces and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

The irresitable impetus for God’s Kingdom to be spread throughout the world really began during the Roman Empire and Rome’s interactions with Christianity. Now a bunch of you are gonna flame me and point out that God’s Kingdom has never been actualized on Earth, particularly during the first four or five centuries since Jesus. And I’m gonna respond with

Luk 17:21 King James Version (KJV) Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

...

Ole George King prefers the KJV, which would probably indicate the Kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom. That’s what my relatively unschooled (6th grade) daddy, a deist, in effect taught me. Deists believe God created the Universe, then departed, leaving us to our own devices. He constantly said that God is in our hearts. Strange position for a deist, but daddy’s belief system had all kinds of inconsistencies, just like most people (except me, of course. )

Agape (the less elegant pronunciation but more sublime meaning)

JawgeFromJawja

Referring to the topic, I know an influential person in our church, long dead, who fully agrees with you. But, that does not take away that it is meant literally also.

I believe the bible uses "kingdom of God" in two different senses and that we need to know which is which, and what they are.

One of my criticisms of all denominations is the tendency to stretch, twist, or even totally misread prophecy to fit the party doctrine. Look at one verse here:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other people. It shall break in pieces and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

There is nothing in verse 44 that remotely suggests the meaning of this particular Kingdom of God in two senses. Verse 45 strongly suggests a singular meaning for the prophetic dream:

Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Thedream, singular, and the interpretation, singular.

Despite being from Georgia, I must have some Missouri ancestors' blood coursing in my veins. You gotta show me, sola scriptura.

Agape,

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Referring to the topic, I know an influential person in our church, long dead, who fully agrees with you. But, that does not take away that it is meant literally also.

I believe the bible uses "kingdom of God" in two different senses and that we need to know which is which, and what they are.

One of my criticisms of all denominations is the tendency to stretch, twist, or even totally misread prophecy to fit the party doctrine. Look at one verse here:

Dan 2:44 And in the days of these kings, the God of Heaven shall set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed. And the kingdom shall not be left to other people. It shall break in pieces and destroy all these kingdoms, and it shall stand forever.

There is nothing in verse 44 that remotely suggests the meaning of this particular Kingdom of God in two senses. Verse 45 strongly suggests a singular meaning for the prophetic dream:

Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that the stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

Thedream, singular, and the interpretation, singular.

Despite being from Georgia, I must have some Missouri ancestors' blood coursing in my veins. You gotta show me, sola scriptura.

Agape,

I started a topic for exploring the meaning of the "kingdom of God" in the bible study forum here, unless you want to go only by your understanding, and that one text.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/463321/Kingdom_of_God.html#Post463321

[JawgeFromJawja]

Noted, teresaq. Going right there.

Agape,

[teresaq]

I pray we get a fruitful study going on. That is the bible study forum so it is conducted differently than this forum. We will just study the "kingdom of God" there and bring whatever thoughts as they pertain to the subject you started back here. Agreed?

It isn't my intention to "steal" a discussion from someone else for one thing, and the bible study forum is for studying specific subjects for another.

[JawgeFromJawja]

JAWGEFROMJAWJA

My responses to each point will be in blue.

in all 4 GOSPELS

it states that JESUS rested in the tomb on the SABBATH DAY

Luke chap 23 ver 55--56--57--

John chap 19 ver 20

Mark chap 15 ver 46

Matthew chap 27 ver 58--59--60--

SO he was in the tomb and rested on the Sabbath day

all the ver after theses talk about the 1st day of the week

when he rose

That is correct. The fact that Jesus was in the tomb on the Sabbath does not in any way mandate Christians to keep the Sabbath.

ALL THE DISCIPLES PETER AND PAUL did not have issue

with the sabbath they all worship and taught the sabbath

was still binding

I agree that they did not have issues with the Sabbath. After all, they were ethnic Jews. They most certainly kept the Sabbath. They did not teach that Christians must keep the Sabbath.

if there would have been a change of day to worship

you would think that JESUS would have mention when

HE met with then on the seashore and in the upper room

No, I wouldn't think that. Why do you? Besides, as I posted earlier, in Matthew 19: 15 - 21, Jesus left out keeping the Sabbath when the rich young ruler asked Him explicitly which commandments to keep. Any passage in The New Testament listing the commandments does not include keeping the Sabbath.

JESUS did say that we are to pray that are flight was not to be during the winter or on the sabbath

Matthew 24:20 Mark 13: 18 talks about this also

all of this is JESUS WORDS

Again, Jesus and his disciples were devout Jews. Jesus told them that the event was to be during their lifetime. He knew that as Jews the flight would make their hardship worse if on Sabbath. There is no rational way to construe that passage as a mandate for Christians to keep the Sabbath.

in the book of ACTS chap 13:ver 14..17..42.44.chap 16:13 chap 17:2 chap 18 :4

so PAUL was teaching on the Sabbath

and Paul was to go to the gentile not the Jews

Even should Paul have taught gentiles only on the Sabbath, that still would not in itself have mandated Sabbath keeping for Christians.

dgrimm60

Agape