Revisit The Book of Daniel with a Heretical Baptist

[teresaq]

...

Overaged, you are correct. I shall stay on topic. The blame for chasing rabbits is largely, but not entirely mine, but rabbits were loosed in the topic. Such happens in the best supervised topics, and this early effort of mine has not been well herded.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Your post is multifaceted,so please permit me to respond within your comments, my responses being in blue.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

... To me, the concept of Old Covenant and New Covenant is more contrived than real. Johnn317, that is one reason your question seemed meaningless to me. Christ's death, to me, did not ratify a Second Covenant. ....For me, that promise beginning in Genesis is the only covenant between God and mankind in general. God certainly has a covenant with Israel, a rather complex covenant that was to have made Israel a nation of priests for the rest of mankind. For that covenant God required a "peculiar people" who were required to keep additional laws as a token of their peculiar covenant with God. Such laws included circumcision and keeping the Sabbath. My reading of Torah leads me to conclude that those additional laws were binding only on Israel not for the rest of mankind, including Christians.

....The more I have studied the Bible and history, the more strongly have I concluded a single covenant idea. There are two separate covenants, one established for for all people, and the second, the particular covenant between God and Israel. However there is no reason to label them "The Old Covenant" and "The New Covenant". They are separate, for separate groups. One binds all mankind including Israel, and the other, Israel only.

Do you believe that Christ's death ratified any agreement that God had made with anyone, whether Gentile or Jew? If so, what agreement did the shedding of His blood ratify?

Right off hand, I do not believe Christ's death ratified any agreement (covenant) between God and any person or group. Please understand this: I DO believe that Christ's death fulfilled God's promise to mankind to provide salvation for all. But salvation is a gift, it is free. A covenant, being a two way (or more) agreement provides no gift.

Covenants come with a price tag obligating all parties of the covenant to pay something. God did not pay mankind anything with Christ's death. Rather than a payment, His death was a gift, A FREE GIFT, a most precious gift. We are told clearly that the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life ---. Our only cost for salvation is to accept the gift.

God's "Old Testament" covenant is with Israel.

What do you believe the Bible teaches in the following verses:

Luke 22:20-- Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup [is] the new covenant in my blood, which is shed for you.

Keep in mind, Jesus was talking to Jews at a Sader. For them, this gift of life through Christ's shed blood was a new covenant, abolishing the old obligations mandated for Israel.

NOTE that Jesus Himself referred to it as "the new Covenant."

I constantly pray for wisdom and understanding. But for the life of me, I cannot see that in referring to God's gift that it was a new covenant for Gentiles. For Gentiles it was a gift with no strings attached. (Otherwise, it would not be a gift.)

Heb. 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:

Yes! A new covenant with the houses of Israel and Judah. Clear as chiming crystal.

Hebrews 8:13 In that he saith, A new [covenant], he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old [is] ready to vanish away.

No matter what we call God's gift, it is still --- a gift.

Agape

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

...

Overaged, you are correct. I shall stay on topic. The blame for chasing rabbits is largely, but not entirely mine, but rabbits were loosed in the topic. Such happens in the best supervised topics, and this early effort of mine has not been well herded.

No, it weren't. We hit you with the Sabbath. We tend to do that, its one of our trademarks, so to speak. lol

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

...

My approach to posting on Club Adventist is to open e-Sword under a separate tab. E-Sword is a very powerful Bible study program. Again, avoiding chasing rabbits, but lemme try to sell e-Sword to you who do not have such a program on a hard drive of your computer. My downloaded e-Sword program is formatted to include 30 Bible translations with a display of a whole chapter, or an optional display showing single verses from all 30 translations in parallel comparison, plus toggles for instant display of Nave’s Topical Bible and other references or concordances, dictionaries such as Strong’s catalog, Thayer’s, Noah Webster’s Bible Dictionary, commentaries such as John Wesley’s, Schofield, multiple writings of the early Christian fathers, and many historical documents. You cannot beat the price – it is free. Add on data not in the public domain costs a nominal fee. I only have one of the add ons, Zondervan Publishers’ NIV, costing $10.00 when it was downloaded. It may be free now – several of the previous for fee add ons have become gratuitous.

The free data of e-Sword includes the Geneva Bible, the very translation carried by the Pilgrims to New England. One of the great features of the Geneva Bible is its extensive marginal translation notes, to which I refer and copy below. These Geneva Bible marginal notes are provided separate from the Geneva Bible in e-Sword, but they are free. The notes were written by some of the outstanding leaders of the Protestant reformation.

...

I do have it and absolutely love it. It is always open on my computer also.

OK, back to topic.

So there you have it, another endorsement for e-Sword. Should my e-Sword program be lost or corrupted, I would probably go into withdrawals.

Teresaq, why am I not surprised that you have e-Sword?

Again, this or a similar program amplifies and magnifies Bible study. This is the most powerful one I know of, on or off line. And its free.

Agape

[teresaq]

So there you have it, another endorsement for e-Sword. Should my e-Sword program be lost or corrupted, I would probably go into withdrawals.

Teresaq, why am I not surprised that you have e-Sword?

Again, this or a similar program amplifies and magnifies Bible study. This is the most powerful one I know of, on or off line. And its free.

Agape

:)

[John317]

Dan 7:6 After this I behelde, and loe, there was an other like a (h)leopard, which had vpon his backe (i)foure wings of a foule: the beast had also foure heads, and dominion was giuen him.

(h) Meaning Alexander the king of Macedonia.

(i) That is, his four chief captains, which had the empire among them after his death. Selencus had Asia the great, Antigonus the less, Cassander and after him Antipater was king of Macedonia, and Ptolemeus had Egypt.

(k) It was not of himself nor of his own power that he gained all these countries: for his army contained only thirty thousand men, and he overcame in one battle Darius, who had one million, when he was so heavy with sleep that his eyes were hardly open, as the stories report: therefore this power was given to him from God.

....

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the visions by night, and beholde, the (l)fourth beast was fearefull and terrible and very strong. It had great (m) yron teeth: it deuoured and brake in pieces and stamped (n) the residue vnder his feete: and it was vnlike to the beasts that were before it: for it had (o) ten hornes.

(l) That is, the Roman empire which was a monster, and could not be compared to any beast, because there was no beast that was even comparable.

(m) Signifying the tyranny and greediness of the Romans.

(n) That which the Romans could not quietly enjoy in other countries, they would give it to other kings and rulers, so that whenever they wanted to, they might take it again: which liberality is here called the stamping of the rest under the feet.

(o) That is, various and different provinces which were governed by the deputies and proconsuls: and each one of these might be compared to a king.

I agree with these comments in the Geneva Bible. I have the NT in the Geneva Bible.

[John317]

Interesting that the Geneva Bible's comments say that the little horn arising out of Rome, the fourth beast, are the pagan Emperors.

This could not be, though, since the Emperors of Rome were not kings distinct from Rome but were themselves part of the fourth beast.

Therefore the little horn arising out of the fourth beast would have to be someone or something other than the emperors of pagan Rome.

The notes say:

Quote:

Dan 7:8 As I considered the hornes, beholde, there came vp among them another litle horne, before whome there were three of the first hornes pluckt away: and behold, in this horne were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking presumptuous things.

(p) Which is meant of Julius Caesar, Augustus, Tiberius, Caligula, Claudius, and Nero, etc., who were as kings in effect, but because they could not rule, except by the consent of the senate, their power is compared to a little horn. For Muhammad did not come from the Roman Empire, and the pope has no vocation of government: therefore this cannot be applied to them, and also in this prophecy the Prophet's purpose is chiefly to comfort the Jews until the revelation of Christ. Some take it for the whole body of antichrist.

Questions:

What are the three horns that the pagan Emperors of Rome were supposed to have pulled up by the roots?

What is the meaning of the statement that "the pope has no vocation of government"?

[John317]

...

Dan 7:13 As I behelde in visions by night, behold, (a) one like the sonne of man came in the cloudes of heauen, and (b)approched vnto the Ancient of dayes, and they brought him before him.

(a) Which is meant of Christ, who had not yet taken upon him man's nature, neither was he yet the son of David according to the flesh, as he was afterward: but he appeared then in a figure, and that in the clouds, that is, being separated from the common sort of men by manifest signs of his divinity.

( That is, when he ascended into the heavens, and his divine majesty appeared, and all power was given to him, in respect that he was our mediator.

Dan 7:14 And he gaue him © dominion, and honour, and a kingdome, that all people, nations and languages should serue him: his dominion is an euerlasting dominion, which shall neuer bee taken away: and his kingdome shall neuer be destroyed.

© This is meant of the beginning of Christ's kingdom, when God the Father gave unto him all dominion, as the the Mediator, with the intent that he would continually govern his Church which is here on earth, until the time that he brought them to eternal life.

Pretty close to the truth, I think. The Son of man is certainly Christ. But since this is a prophecy, the prophet Daniel is seeing Christ in vision as Christ is after the ascension. This scene takes place between the ascension of Christ and His return in glory. Notice that it is a judgment scene. The FAther's throne has wheels on it and obviously moves. The Father is portrayed in the heavenly throne-room. Judgment is ready to begin, but everyone is waiting for somone. Then verses 13, 14 show the Son of Man coming to the Father.

Notice also that while the Judgment scene is going on, the prophet is watching the little horn power speaking pompous words. Therefore it is clear that the little-horn power is active on the earth while this judgment scene is going on in heaven. It is proof that this judgment occurs prior to the second coming of Christ.

[John317]

...Dan 7:20 Also to know of the tenne hornes that were in his head, and of the other which came vp, before whome three fell, and of the horne that had eyes, and of the mouth that spake presumptuous thinges, whose (k) looke was more stoute then his fellowes.

(k) This is meant of the fourth beast, which was more terrible than the others.

Dan 7:21 I beheld, and the same (l)horne made battel against the Saintes, yea, & preuailed against them,

(l) Meaning the Roman emperors, who were most cruel against the Church of God, both of the Jews and of the Gentiles.

Dan 7:22 (m)Vntill the Ancient of dayes came, and iudgement was giuen to the Saintes of the most High: and the time approched, that the Saintes possessed the kingdome.

(m) Until God showed his power in the person of Christ, and by the preaching of the Gospel gave unto his own some rest, and so obtained a famous name in the world, and were called the Church of God, or the kingdom of God.

Dan 7:23 Then he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdome in the earth, which shall be vnlike to all the kingdomes, and shall deuoure the whole earth, and shall treade it downe and breake it in pieces.

Dan 7:24 And the ten hornes out of this kingdome are tenne Kings that shall rise: and an other shall rise after them, and he shall be vnlike to the first, and he shall subdue (n) three Kings,

(n) See Dan_7:8

Dan 7:25 And shall speake wordes against (o) the most High, and shall consume the Saintes of the most High, and thinke that he may (p) change times and lawes, and they shalbe giuen into his hand, vntill a (q) time, and times and the deuiding of time.

(o) That is, will make wicked decrees and proclamations against God's word, and send throughout all their dominion, to destroy all that did profess it.

(p) These emperors will not consider that they have their power from God, but think it is in their own power to change God's laws and man's, and as it were the order of nature, as appears by Octavius, Tiberius, Calligula, Nero, Domitianus, etc.

(q) God will allow them to rage in this way against his saints for a long time, the time and times, but at length he will soften these troubles, and shorten the time for his elect's sake, (Mat_24:22), which is here meant by the dividing of time.

But those kings did not change God's laws, and it was within their rights to change man's laws. So the prophecy cannot be speaking of the pagan Emperors of Rome.

Nor did the Emperors of Rome persecute the saints of God or "a time, and times, and the dividing of time."

There are many ways in which we can show that the Emperors of Rome did not fulfill these prophecies of Daniel. The main problem with this interpretation is that the Emperors were the same as the Fourth Beast. The Emperors were not distinct powers from the Fourth Beast, the Roman Empire. Therefore the little-horn power that comes up out of the Roman Empire had to be another power, not the pagan Emporers.

Questions:

What power arose out of Rome and persecuted the saints for a time, and times, and a dividing of time? (This time period is 1, 260 prophetic days.)

What power attempted to change the times and the law, i.e., the law of God, and specifically a part of God's law having to do with time?

[JawgeFromJawja]

John, you and I keep some weird hours.

One of the striking differences between Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 is the less certain identity of the horns. I won't jump the gun on my post installations again except to say that I feel the Little Horn of Daniel 8 has been definitely identified. I have a very uncomfortably fuzzy concept of the identity of the horns of Daniel 7. On the other hand, identity of the horrendous beast of Chapter 7 as Rome does fit my current concept of prophecy concerning The Kingdom of God. Let's concentrate on identity of the horns of Chapter Seven's horrendous beast for now.

Highest regards,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Jawge, the Sabbath was instituted at Creation, not at Sinai. The laws of Moses are the laws that have been done away with not the 10 Commandments or like I like to call them, the Moral Law. I believe the reason that Jesus only mentioned the last six, is because most of the Jews had no problem with the first 4! It was those last six that they seemed to have a problem with.

Pkrause, how do you mean the Sabbath was instituted at Creation? As a mandated observation?

To my knowledge, Nothing in The Torah indicates a covenant mandating Sabbath keeping prior to Sinai, and even then, only for Israel.

As far as that argument for Jesus not mentioning the first 4 Commandments, I have 2 points against that. First, Jews had as much of a problem keeping the first four commandments as with the others. Second, throughout the New Testament, whenever the Commandments are enumerated, Sabbath keeping is not listed.

As far as differentiating the ceremonial laws of Moses from the Ten Commandments as those nailed to the cross, show me the Scripture clarifying this.

Highest regards, one Old Man to another

[Stan]

JawgeFromJawja

Even though we have different thoughts and understanding I appreciate the civility you use in posting....

Thank you

[JawgeFromJawja]

OK, hear me out on this. Maybe we are not hearing correctly what Jawge is trying to say. Consider his last phrase in his last post:

Quote:

All committed Christians are sinless, not by acts they do or do not do. They are saved by Faith in God.

I think he is saying that we can be "perfect" (Mat 5:48) in our sphere, as Christ is in His.

But I guess we need him to clarify?

I dunno, Overaged. Fine nuances of theology usually fly right over my 73 year old addlepated brain. What I do know is that I am a sinner, present tense, saved by God's Grace.

I mean to and intend to do good following Jesus' example, but at the end of each day, after 64 years of trying(my conversion was at age 9), I still have a buncha sins to confess. This ole boy's perfection is only through the cleansing blood of Christ.

Agape and Highest regards,

[Overaged]

So there you have it, another endorsement for e-Sword. Should my e-Sword program be lost or corrupted, I would probably go into withdrawals.

Teresaq, why am I not surprised that you have e-Sword?

Again, this or a similar program amplifies and magnifies Bible study. This is the most powerful one I know of, on or off line. And its free.

Agape

I have Bible Explorer 4, Esword, plus several proprietary Bible programs; and if all that doesn't keep me busy enough, there are online Bible programs such a Blue Letter Bible which has many Bible versions not included in these programs. I agree; these kinds of things are great for Bible study.

LOL, and I agree, there are often several "rabbits" let out of their cages during most forum discussions. It's part of the territory.

There are a number of posts to catch up on regarding the book of Daniel; so I will return shortly after reading them more closely, and figuring what to reply to...maybe you have a suggestion as to what specifically you would like to hear me comment on?

[John317]

John, you and I keep some weird hours.

Yes, I do, and I am trying to change that, but it is hard after 20+ years of working all night 5 nights a week.

As a doctor you also probably worked a lot of nights, I'm sure.

About 10 PM, my mind and body are telling me that it's time to work, not go to sleep. lol

[John317]

JawgeFromJawja

Even though we have different thoughts and understanding I appreciate the civility you use in posting....

Thank you

That is for sure!!

Jawge, your civility makes you stick out like a sore thumb! And I hope whatever you have that makes your thumb sore is mighty contagious. We could use some of it around here. :-)

[teresaq]

JawgeFromJawja

Even though we have different thoughts and understanding I appreciate the civility you use in posting....

Thank you

Amen to that!! It encourages and invites more of the same!! And that even if I might strongly disagree with your conclusions.

I have seen others who I disagree with whose civility, if not Christlikeness, I much admired and would hate to see leave the forum for whatever reason. I admire it because I am so lacking in that area myself but am striving to be Christlike, in actions at least, until the heart catches up. Oh God, por please!!

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]OK, hear me out on this. Maybe we are not hearing correctly what Jawge is trying to say. Consider his last phrase in his last post:

quote]All committed Christians are sinless, not by acts they do or do not do. They are saved by Faith in God. /quote]

I think he is saying that we can be "perfect" (Mat 5:48) in our sphere, as Christ is in His.

But I guess we need him to clarify? /quote]

I dunno, Overaged. Fine nuances of theology usually fly right over my 73 year old addlepated brain. What I do know is that I am a sinner, present tense, saved by God's Grace.

I mean to and intend to do good following Jesus' example, but at the end of each day, after 64 years of trying(my conversion was at age 9), I still have a buncha sins to confess. This ole boy's perfection is only through the cleansing blood of Christ.

Agape and Highest regards,

[phkrause]

Pkrause, how do you mean the Sabbath was instituted at Creation? As a mandated observation?

To my knowledge, Nothing in The Torah indicates a covenant mandating Sabbath keeping prior to Sinai, and even then, only for Israel.

As far as that argument for Jesus not mentioning the first 4 Commandments, I have 2 points against that. First, Jews had as much of a problem keeping the first four commandments as with the others. Second, throughout the New Testament, whenever the Commandments are enumerated, Sabbath keeping is not listed.

As far as differentiating the ceremonial laws of Moses from the Ten Commandments as those nailed to the cross, show me the Scripture clarifying this.

Highest regards, one Old Man to another

Brother Jawge here is what I'm talking about.

Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 2

1. Now the heavens and the earth were completed and all their host.

2. And God completed on the seventh day His work that He did, and He abstained on the seventh day from all His work that He did.

3. And God blessed the seventh day and He hallowed it, for thereon He abstained from all His work that God created to do.

Genesis 2 (Complete Jewish Bible)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, along with everything in them. 2 On the seventh day God was finished with his work which he had made, so he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 God blessed the seventh day and separated it as holy; because on that day God rested from all his work which he had created, so that it itself could produce.

These are two different Jewish Bibles. The first one is what most Jews read. Taken from the online Torah, which most Jews will refer you to. The second one is the Messianic Jewish Bible. Also called the Complete Jewish Bible.

These are both talking about the Sabbath. But than I think you knew that?

[John317]

...3. And God blessed the seventh day and He hallowed it, for thereon He abstained from all His work that God created to do.

Genesis 2 (Complete Jewish Bible)

... 3 God blessed the seventh day and separated it as holy; because on that day God rested from all his work which he had created....

These verses show us that God did three things:

1) He rested on the seventh day.

2) He blessed the seventh day.

3) He made the seventh day holy.

God didn't bless the seventh day for himself but for the sake of people, for whom the Sabbath was made, just as Christ said in Mark 2: 27. The very word "blessed" refers to the purpose of the Sabbath, a special time, or "appointment," for meeting with God.

God made the seventh day of the week holy time thousands of years before the existence of the first Jew, and He has never removed the holiness of the day. It's God's special "date" with us.

[phkrause]

These verses show us that God did three things:

1) He rested on the seventh day.

2) He blessed the seventh day.

3) He made the seventh day holy.

God didn't bless the seventh day for himself but for the sake of people, for whom the Sabbath was made, just as Christ said in Mark 2: 27. The very word "blessed" refers to the purpose of the Sabbath, a special time, or "appointment," for meeting with God.

God made the seventh day of the week holy time thousands of years before the existence of the first Jew, and He has never removed the holiness of the day. It's God's special "date" with us.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Pkrause, how do you mean the Sabbath was instituted at Creation? As a mandated observation?

To my knowledge, Nothing in The Torah indicates a covenant mandating Sabbath keeping prior to Sinai, and even then, only for Israel.

As far as that argument for Jesus not mentioning the first 4 Commandments, I have 2 points against that. First, Jews had as much of a problem keeping the first four commandments as with the others. Second, throughout the New Testament, whenever the Commandments are enumerated, Sabbath keeping is not listed.

As far as differentiating the ceremonial laws of Moses from the Ten Commandments as those nailed to the cross, show me the Scripture clarifying this.

Highest regards, one Old Man to another

Brother Jawge here is what I'm talking about.

Bereishit - Genesis - Chapter 2

1. Now the heavens and the earth were completed and all their host.

2. And God completed on the seventh day His work that He did, and He abstained on the seventh day from all His work that He did.

3. And God blessed the seventh day and He hallowed it, for thereon He abstained from all His work that God created to do.

Genesis 2 (Complete Jewish Bible)

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, along with everything in them. 2 On the seventh day God was finished with his work which he had made, so he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made. 3 God blessed the seventh day and separated it as holy; because on that day God rested from all his work which he had created, so that it itself could produce.

These are two different Jewish Bibles. The first one is what most Jews read. Taken from the online Torah, which most Jews will refer you to. The second one is the Messianic Jewish Bible. Also called the Complete Jewish Bible.

These are both talking about the Sabbath. But than I think you knew that?

Yes. But it is still not at all clear, at least for me, that for Israel there was a covenant an agreed upon mandate for Israel to keep the Sabbath prior to Sinai (Horeb). Or to be circumcised. Or to keep other points of their covenant.

Best regards

[John317]

....it is still not at all clear, at least for me, that for Israel there was a covenant an agreed upon mandate for Israel to keep the Sabbath prior to Sinai (Horeb). Or to be circumcised. Or to keep other points of their covenant.

The Sabbath was known before Sinai, for sure, but it was not a part of the covenant until Sinai.

God put it in very center of the Ten Comamndments.

Notice also that the Sabbath commandment not only contains the most words but that it connects the first 3 commandments with the last 6. In other words, the Sabbath commandment connects the commands regarding our duty to God with the commands regarding our duty to those whom God created.

The fourth commandment is really the reason that God has the authority to command that humans keep His law: He is the Creator of everything in heaven and earth.

[Overaged]

I thought this thread was about the book of Daniel - just sayin.

[teresaq]

I thought this thread was about the book of Daniel - just sayin.

But OA, its our "trademark". That's what we do. lol

[Overaged]

LOL; I know, I would love to discuss this other stuff in a different thread - I really enjoy studying/discussing the book of Daniel - I was really looking forward to it. I suppose there is a Sabbath connection in the book of Daniel - so we will have to let Jawge lead the way. He is KING of this thread..