Revisit The Book of Daniel with a Heretical Baptist

[JawgeFromJawja]

I thought this thread was about the book of Daniel - just sayin.

You got it. For now, I am tied up with clutter stuff in getting my kiddie book, The Stitch Elf, published. I can field most of these skittering rabbit type posts right off my Baptist cuff, if that seems appropriate. However, the same issues will most likely crop up again.

Even so, the topic is about a Baptist's view of Daniel.

If there are spells of no response to rabbits, the clutter stuff for my book is temporarily over, and a comment on Daniel follows.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

...

My approach to posting on Club Adventist is to open e-Sword under a separate tab. E-Sword is a very powerful Bible study program. Again, avoiding chasing rabbits, but lemme try to sell e-Sword to you who do not have such a program on a hard drive of your computer. My downloaded e-Sword program is formatted to include ...

I do have it and absolutely love it. It is always open on my computer also.

OK, back to topic.

And, for those who do not know yet, http://sharpeningthesword.net/sharpening%20the%20sword%20e-sword%20files_008.htm

has a lot of goodies for we SDAs, such as much of Ellen

White's works, many compilations, but also complete works.

I just remembered and had to throw that in there. Back to topic. Well maybe...

[JawgeFromJawja]

Continuing with A Heretical Baptist's View on Daniel

Dan 8:8 Therefore the goate waxed exceeding great, and when he was at the strongest, his great (i) horne was broken: and for it came vp foure (k) that appeared toward the foure windes of ye heauen.

(i) Alexander's great power was broken: for when he had overcome all the East, he thought to return towards Greece to subdue those that had rebelled, and so died along the way.

(k) That is, who were famous: for almost in the space of fifteen years there were fifteen different successors before this monarchy was divided to these four, of which Cassander had Macedonia, Seleucus had Syria, Antigonus had Asia the less, and Ptolemeus had Egypt.

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came foorth a (l)litle horne, which waxed very great toward the (m) South, and toward the (n) East, and towarde the pleasant land.

(l) Which was Antiochus Epiphanes, who was of a servile and flattering nature, and also there were others between him and the kingdom: and therefore he is here called the little horn, because neither princely conditions, nor any other thing was in him, why he should obtain this kingdom.

(m) That is, towards Egypt.

(n) By which he means Ptolemais.

Dan 8:10 Yea, it grewe vp vnto the hoste of heauen, and it cast downe some of the (p) hoste, & of the starres to the ground, and trode vpon them,

(p) Antiochus raged against the elect of God, and tread his precious stars underfoot, who are so called because they are separated from the world.

Dan 8:11 And extolled himselfe against the (q) prince of the hoste from whome the ® dayly sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his Sanctuarie was cast downe.

(q) That is, God, who governs and maintains his Church. ® He laboured to abolish all religion, and therefore cast God's service out of his temple, which God had chosen as a little corner from all the rest of the world to have his name there truly called upon.

Dan 8:12 And a (s) time shall be giuen him ouer the dayly sacrifice for the iniquitie: and it shall (t) cast downe the trueth to the ground, and thus shall it doe, and prosper.

(s) He shows that their sins are the cause of these horrible afflictions: and yet comforts them, in that he appoints this tyrant for a time, whom he would not allow to utterly abolish his religion. (t) This horn will abolish for a time the true doctrine, and so corrupt God's service.

Dan 8:13 Then I heard (u) one of the Saints speaking, and one of the Saints spake vnto a certaine one, saying, Howe long shall endure the vision of the dayly sacrifice, and the iniquitie of the (x) desolation to treade both the Sanctuarie and the (y) armie vnder foote?

(u) Meaning that he heard one of the angels asking this question of Christ, whom he called a certain one, or a secret one, or a marvellous one. (x) That is, the Jews' sins, which were the cause of its destruction. (y) That is, which suppresses God's religion and his people.

Dan 8:14 And (z) he answered me, Vnto (a) the euening and the morning, two thousand and three hundreth: then shall the Sanctuarie be clensed.

(z) Christ answered me for the comfort of the Church. (a) That is, until so many natural days have passed, which make six years, and three and a half months: for the temple was profaned this long under Antiochus.

Dan 8:15 Nowe when I Daniel had seene the vision, and sought for the meaning, beholde, there stoode before me like ( the similitude of a man.

( Who was Christ who in this manner declared himself to the old fathers, how he would be God manifest in flesh.

Dan 8:16 And I heard a mans voyce betweene the bankes of Vlai, which called, and sayde, Gabriel, © make this man to vnderstand the vision.

© This power to command the angel, declared that he was God.

Dan 8:17 So he came where I stood: and when hee came, I was afraide, and fell vpon my face: but he sayd vnto me, Vnderstand, O sonne of man: for (d) in the last time shalbe the vision.

(d) The effect of this vision will not yet appear, until a long time after.

Dan 8:18 Nowe as he was speaking vnto me, I being a sleepe fell on my face to the ground: but he touched me, and set me vp in my place.

Dan 8:19 And he sayde, Beholde, I will shewe thee what shalbe in the last (e) wrath: for in the end of the time appointed it shall come.

(e) Meaning that great rage which Antiochus would show against the Church.

Dan 8:20 The ramme which thou sawest hauing two hornes, are the Kings of the Medes and Persians.

Dan 8:21 And the goate is the King of Grecia, and the great horne that is betweene his eyes, is the first King.

Dan 8:22 And that that is broken, and foure stoode vp for it, are foure kingdomes, which shall stand vp (f) of that nation, but not (g) in his strength.

(f) That is, out of Greece. (g) They will not have similar power as Alexander had.

Dan 8:23 And in the end of their kingdome, when the rebellious shalbe consumed, a King of (h)fierce countenance, and vnderstanding darke sentences, shall stand vp.

(h) Noting that this Antiochus was impudent and cruel, and also crafty so that he could not be deceived.

Dan 8:24 And his power shalbe mightie, but not(i) in his strength: and hee shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the(k) mightie, and the holy people.

(i) That is, not like Alexander's strength. (k) Both the Gentiles that dwelt around him, and also the Jews.

Dan 8:25 And through his (l) policie also, hee shall cause craft to prosper in his hand, and he shall extoll himselfe in his heart, and by (m) peace shal destroy many: hee shall also stande vp against the (n) prince of princes, but he shalbe broken downe (o) without hand.

(l) Whatever he goes about by his craft, he will bring it to pass.

(m) That is, under pretence of peace, or as it were in sport.

(n) Meaning, against God.

(o) For God would destroy him with a notable plague, and so comfort his Church.

Dan 8:26 And the vision of the (p) euening and the morning, which is declared, is true: therefore seale thou vp the vision, for it shall be after many dayes.

(p) Read (Dan_8:14).

Dan 8:27 And I Daniel was striken and (q) sicke certaine dayes: but when I rose vp, I did the Kings busines, and I was astonished at the vision, but none vnderstood it.

(q) Because of fear and astonishment.

[JawgeFromJawja]

JawgeFromJawja posted:

My approach to posting on Club Adventist is to open e-Sword under a separate tab. E-Sword is a very powerful Bible study program. Again, avoiding chasing rabbits, but lemme try to sell e-Sword to you who do not have such a program on a hard drive of your computer. My downloaded e-Sword program is formatted to include ...

Teresaq posted: I do have it and absolutely love it. It is always open on my computer also.

OK, back to topic. And, for those who do not know yet, http://sharpeningthesword.net/sharpening%20the%20sword%20e-sword%20files_008.htm

has a lot of goodies for we SDAs, such as much of Ellen

White's works, many compilations, but also complete works.

I just remembered and had to throw that in there. Back to topic. Well maybe... <End of quotes>

Great! When downloading this program referencing many of Mrs. White's works, I really did not expect it to be interfaced with e-Sword. It is interfaced, placed right under the "Dictionaries" tab. Which shows that numerous Adventists are aware of my favorite computer toy. Again, if any of you do not have a powerful Bible study program, e-Sword is the best I know of. Download the basic e-Sword first, then any and all of the Bibles you desire, then the extras you want - dictionaries, commentaries, and writings of the early Church fathers. Most of them are free. Finally, download "Sharpening the Sword" from the site referenced by Teresaq. I am just delighted with this add-on. Of course, it doesn't take much to make an old man happy.

The best things in life are indeed free.

Agape

[teresaq]

I think that antiochus only appears to fit the bill, but that all the specifics of the text do not fit him.

Thanks Jawge for the further advertisement, and endorsement, for the writings of EGW for esword...stated much better than I did, as well.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Happy Hannukah!

(Even in the middle of summer)

We are so used to hearing that greeting, usually from our Jewish friends,and usually during or near our Christmas Holidays. But how many know, really understand the significance of Hannukah?

You can begin to understand Hannukkah by reading in the “Deuterocanonical” books of the Bible, the Apocrypha, 1st and 2nd Maccabees, and The Book of Daniel. 1st and 2nd Maccabees both relate the history of the Jewish revolt in the second second century BC, basically against the Seleucid king Antiochus IV Epiphanes. With minor exceptions, the books are historically accurate, contrary to some opinions. Ultimately, after a heroic sturggle led by the brothers Maccabees, the Jews prevailed. Against what did they prevail? They prevailed against “ the abomination of desolation”, or “abomination that makes desolation”, instigated by Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who indeed does fit the descriptors of “the little horn” of Daniel Chapter 8 like a glove.

Antiochus changed the law and the times. He forbade the Jews to keep God’s law for them: circumcision was punishable by death. Sabbath keeping was punishable by – yes, death. Worship of idols was mandated, on pain of – death. All Jewish festivals - “times” -were abolished. The temple was thoroughly desecrated – made unclean: prostitutes were housed in the side rooms . The altars were desecrated by sacrificing pork and other unclean stuff on them. Sacrifices were made to idols. Antiochus IV was a madman who indeed changed the times and laws.

First Maccabees is largely narrative, especially the first seven chapters. Second Maccabees is largely an interpretive treatise on First Maccabees, from the viewpoint of developing Jewish theology of the second century BC.

To jump the gun in this look at Daniel, review the following verses:

Daniel 9:27 (ASV) "And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations [shall come] one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall [wrath] be poured out upon the desolate."

Daniel 11:31 (ASV) "And forces shall stand on his part, and they shall profane the sanctuary, even the fortress, and shall take away the continual [burnt-offering], and they shall set up the abomination that maketh desolate."

Daniel 12:11 (ASV) "And from the time that the continual [burnt-offering] shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand and two hundred and ninety days."

Further, Jesus spoke to the disciples about “the abominations of desolation”:

Matthew 24:15-26 (ESV) "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Mark 13:14 (ESV) "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Luke 21.20-21 (ESV) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains…"

Further, Jesus said in very clear terms

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

Adventist theology has it that the little horn arose from one of the four winds, not from one of the previous horns. Further, Adventist theology relates the little horn to the Roman Empire and the Catholic Church. Reading Daniel 7 and Daniel 8 in context, there is no way this ole heretical Baptist can make such connections. Not as a former fundamentalist Baptist, not as a current heterodoxical Baptist, not as a lover of Adventists, not as a special lover of a particular Adventist, not as a former atheist, and not as an A+ history student (even though the grades were earned at that backwater school, The University of Georgia. Gotta toot muh own horn some – word play intended).

Look again at the following verses, KJV: (by the way, one authority has opined that at least 80 percent of the KJV is based directly on The Geneva Bible)

Dan 7:7 After this I saw in the night visions, and behold a fourth beast, dreadful and terrible, and strong exceedingly; and it had great iron teeth: it devoured and brake in pieces, and stamped the residue with the feet of it: and it was diverse from all the beasts that were before it; and it had ten horns.

Dan 7:8 I considered the horns, and, behold, there came up among them another little horn, before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots: and, behold, in this horn were eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things.

Dan 8:8 Therefore the he goat waxed very great: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and for it came up four notable ones toward the four winds of heaven.

Dan 8:9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land.

Dan 8:10 And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them.

Dan 8:11 Yea, he magnified himself even to the prince of the host, and by him the daily sacrifice was taken away, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

Dan 8:21 And the rough goat is the king of Grecia: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

Dan 8:22 Now that being broken, whereas four stood up for it, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not in his power.

Dan 8:23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

Dan 8:24 And his power shall be mighty, but not by his own power: and he shall destroy wonderfully, and shall prosper, and practise, and shall destroy the mighty and the holy people.

Dan 8:25 And through his policy also he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and by peace shall destroy many: he shall also stand up against the Prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

The horns in both Chapters 7 and 8 represent speicific individuals, not kingdoms or governing bodies, secular or ecclesiastical. The great horn of the goat obviously refers to a specific man, Alexander the Great. In v. 8: 8, the subject is horns, not the four winds, which meant the directions taken by Alexander’s successors. In Daniel 8: 9 the specified little horn itself swept in three directions, just as did Antiochus IV: toward the south (Egypt, where he initially met success), the east (Parthia and other locales), and the pleasant land, which is the God given home of Israel. “He waxed exceeding great” is not too exaggerated a statement, considering that Daniel is a Jewish book written from a Jewish perspective. Antiochus did indeed sweep some of the host of heaven, casting them (priests, Jewish leaders, and army) down, stamping on them (widespread assascinations, murder, pilage of the temple, and installing fawning sycophants of his choice as temple officials.)

The final heroic triumph of the Jews over led to cleansing of the temple. The prophaned equipment, altars, and rooms were purified. Jewish legend states that only one container of undefiled oil was found, enough to light the holy lamps for one day. However, the oil miraculously lasted 8 days, a sufficient time to press fresh oil and sanctify it.

Following cleansing and re-dedication of the temple, there was joyful celebration. The victory celebration was instituted as an annual Jewish holiday, Hanukkah, which is not a religious event in itself.

Again, Happy Hannukah, and more to follow.

[teresaq]

Further, Jesus spoke to the disciples about “the abominations of desolation”:

Matthew 24:15-26 (ESV) "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Mark 13:14 (ESV) "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Luke 21.20-21 (ESV) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains…"

Further, Jesus said in very clear terms

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

So you see Jesus warning his disciples about something that happened in the past?

I couldn't get the connection you were making.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Further, Jesus spoke to the disciples about “the abominations of desolation”:

Matthew 24:15-26 (ESV) "So when you see the abomination of desolation spoken of by the prophet Daniel, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Mark 13:14 (ESV) "But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where it ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains."

Luke 21.20-21 (ESV) "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation has come near. Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains…"

Further, Jesus said in very clear terms

Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.

Mat 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

So you see Jesus warning his disciples about something that happened in the past?

I couldn't get the connection you were making.

The disciples had asked,

Mat 24:3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

Just pointing out that "the abomination of desolation" was a well known expression during Jesus' life, and that he predicted a recurrence of "the abomination of desolation" as well as His coming and the end of the world, within the lifetime of many of his listeners.

Also see Mar 9:1 And he said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That there be some of them that stand here, which shall not taste of death, till they have seen the kingdom of God come with power.

Agape

[teresaq]

The disciples had asked,...

Just pointing out that "the abomination of desolation" was a well known expression during Jesus' life, and that he predicted a recurrence of "the abomination of desolation" ....

Agape

With all due respect, isn't that an assumption that Jesus "predicted a recurrence of "the abomination of desolation""? Isn't it possible that Jesus did not consider antiochus actions to be the fulfillment?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

The disciples had asked,...

Just pointing out that "the abomination of desolation" was a well known expression during Jesus' life, and that he predicted a recurrence of "the abomination of desolation" ....

Agape

With all due respect, isn't that an assumption that Jesus "predicted a recurrence of "the abomination of desolation""? Isn't it possible that Jesus did not consider antiochus actions to be the fulfillment?

I don’t think so. It appears that Jesus was speaking of the future destruction of Herod’s Temple, and comparing it to the abomination of desolation spoken of in Daniel. During the middle years of the second century BC, Antiochus IV Epiphanes conquered the land of Israel, and thoroughly profaned The Temple. Prostitutes plied their trade in rooms in the temple, most of the ceremonial oil was desecrated, and pigs were sacraficed in the temple. Pagan idols were erected, featuring the pagan god Jupiter. Led by the Maccabean brothers, the Jews overthrew Antiochus and rededicated The Temple following ritual cleansing and purification. The Feast of Lights, Hanukkah, was instituted after that cleansing and purification. Jesus would have been quite knowledgeable about those events and the establishment of Hanukkah as a recurring celebration, for the events became part of Talmud.

There is a legend of a miracle occurring with cleansing of The Temple. Only one flask of oil was found not to be desecrated, sufficient to light the Menorah only for one night. However, the menorah amazingly continued to burn for eight nights, sufficient time to press and prepare more pure oil for the temple.

Traditional Jewish celebration of Hanukkah is a delightful occasion, and includes eating foods fried in olive and other oils. The foods include potato pancakes and jellied doughnuts. Wow! Goodbye waistline. Children play games with a Hebrew lettered top called a draydal. The traditional gift is coins, but here in America, other gifts are given.

Next Hanukkah, rejoice with your Jewish friends.

[BobRyan]

Daniel Revisited – Views of a Heretical Baptist

Background

If you are such a victim of ennui that you need to explore this topic with a heretical Baptist, please allow me to provide some background information.

You Adventists are all either crazy, confused, functionally dyslectic while reading The Bible, ignorant, or just disinterested. Before you storm off in a huff, please

understand that Baptists also are all (except me ) either crazy, confused, functionally dyslectic while reading The Bible, ignorant, or just disinterested. The

only reason that I even admit to being a Baptist is that of all the Protestants, Baptists are marginally less crazy, confused, functionally dyslectic while reading The Bible, ignorant, or just disinterested than the rest.

However,if the Southern Baptist Church cared to investigate my beliefs closely, they would excommunicate me immediately, ...

Club Adventist forum leaders and members have been very kind to me since I enrolled last year at the behest of my Seventh Day Adventist wife of then over 51 years. She had expressed concern about some of my residual bitterness towards certain of our Adventist relatives and acquaintances. Strange that she should want some sort of intervention into that now: over the 52 years of our marriage, much of my rancor has dissipated simply from the passage of time and interactions at family gatherings, church activities, and other encounters. One helpful thing in the dissolution of my residual rancor has been my renewed commitment to Christ in 1980, after renouncing my professed atheism of circa 1960 to 1975. The maturing and mellowing (some call it wisdom) that often comes with aging from 21 to 73 has also helped to clear undesirable negative

feelings.

Now to step on a lot of sets of toes. In several posts to follow, if otherwise saint-like Steve and others don't show me the door, I’m gonna say that The Adventist doctrines ostensibly based on the Book of Daniel are not only wrong, they are far off track. Then this arrogant heretical Baptist is gonna show you why those doctrines are wrong.

I pray for God’s guidance and blessings for all of us who jointly participate in this exercise.

Lemme say that I love all you wonderful Adventists and the motley mixed crowd of non-Adventists on this forum. In doctrine, George Collier King has become a Church orphan. Since renouncing atheism, my doctrine has become the Spiritual Message of The Bible, as God leads me to understand it, and I accept no Church creed. None of 'em have it right except for the one that matters, faith in God through Jesus Christ for salvation.

Agape (Ugh ahppy)

JawgeFromJawja

Well George from Georgia -- I am Bob from Georgia and I will say that you have posted a truly creative introduction to your subject.

But as one who has spent one or two decades debating baptists from the Christian POV rather than an atheist POV -- I have to say that I find some flaws in your argument.

1. you claim 50 years of ranchor against your wife's SDA friends and relatives yet you claim that for 15 - 20 of those years you were either a dead-wrong atheist or a less-than-informed non-Christian ... a point that now even you will admit to. Thus it cannot be argued that your opposition against SDAs was all that informed for at least 15 years.

2. Without reading past your first post on this thread "I predict" you will try the old "slice and dice chopp and mix" on one of the timelines of Daniel 9 (the 70 weeks of years). If you do not attempt that giant leap into non-logic then I will be the first to give you the credit for avoiding at least one of the most classic errors for which Baptists are generally well known.

My observation above is nothing less than "stating the obvious" to observe that all prophetic timelines are contiguous. That includes the 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned in Dan 9 and also the 70 weeks of years.

If your objectivity has not brought you up to the modest milestone then you have a huge problem at the very instart in your claim to be more objective than the average Baptist.

I will keep reading ... we shall see which way you went on that one.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

[dgrimm60, with as much politeness as possible, that argument is a sophistry. First of all, where does The Bible tell us to pattern the details of our lives after Jesus?

1John 2:4-8 comes to mind. You make that statement as if you are unfamiliar with the text.

Your claim to years of study on these points is not carrying the day sir George

Have another shot at that one sir.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Wow! A buncha comments. Start with

"so then you should observe the Sabbath Day"

Look at

Exo 19:3 And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel; ---

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Passages that indicate the Sabbath mandate was for Israel.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

[BobRyan]

Of course I have so heard, could not have possibly missed hearing that after 52 wonderful years of marriage to an Adventist whose devout older Adventist brother rapidly became my best friend. Where is the Scripture that clearly mandates self-designated spiritual Jewish Christians to follow the Law given to Israel?

1Cor 7:19 "What matters is KEEPING the COMMANDMENTS of God"

Rom 3:31 "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

Heb 8 - under the New Covenant the LAW of God is written on the heart.

In Eph 6 Paul says that the Ten Commandment unit remains - as does James in James 2 - because in Eph 6 Paul says that the fith commandment is "The FIRST commandment with a promise" and that it is still binding on mankind.

In fact in Romans 3 and in Gal 3 - Paul says that the SAME law of God alive and active at Sinai - condemns all mankind STILL as sinners. That is not possible if the Law of God had ended.

You need to think this one through my friend.

The laws given at Sinai were good ones - they were GOD's Law.

Jesus said PRE cross - "If you Love Me KEEP My commandments" John 14:15. The PRECROSS commandments of God are clearly the subject at hand.

And PRECROSS - God said in Is 66 that ALL MANKIND was to worship God "from Sabbath to Sabbath". And He predicts this to be the case for ALL of eternity - in the New Earth.

WoW!!

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

But it is still not at all clear, at least for me, that for Israel there was a covenant an agreed upon mandate for Israel to keep the Sabbath prior to Sinai (Horeb). Or to be circumcised. Or to keep other points of their covenant.

Best regards

Moses wrote Genesis, and Exodus, and Leviticus, and Numbers and Deut and possibly Job. He wrote those books for his readers - the Jews. Those reading Genesis had access to Exodus.

In Genesis God tells Noah to take TWO of every UNCLEAN animal and SEVEN of every clean into the ark. But it is not until Lev 11 that "Clean and unclean" are defined.

No problem the SAME readers had BOTH books.

In Gen 26 Moses said that Abraham obeyed God's "Commandments, statutes and Laws".

In Deut 27:10 and 30:16 Moses tells Israel to obey God's "Commandments, statutes, and Laws"

In Gen 2 Moses said that on the 7th day of Creation week the Sabbath was "made a holy day".

In Ex 20 God says that the Genesis 2 event ALONE makes the Sabbath binding upon mankind.

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the Sabbath was MADE for mankind - at the MAKING of it.

Only the most determined opposition to the Word of God - would turn a blind eye to the evidence from scripture at this point.

It is impossible to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

On to Daniel 7 and the identity of the four beasts. My favorite commentary on that chapter is Daniel,© 2001,edited by Donald E. Gowan, printed in the Abingdon Old Testament Commentaries. Abingdon Publishers is a Methodist endeavor. I just love the Methodists, whose only major flaw seems to be a pathological fear of water. My professor of Biblical literature at the University of Georgia recommended Abingdon Commentaries as one of the references for that course, and I have continued its use ever since those halcyon days.

Well - since you like the Methodist - what do you think of John Wesley's views of the Sabbath, the Ten Commandments, the beasts of Dan 7 and 8?

http://www.searchgodsword.org/com/wen/view.cgi?book=da&chapter=007

And while we are at it -- what are your thoughts on D.L. Moody's views of the Ten Commandments and the Sabbath?

Dan 2, 7 and 8 are all addressing the progress of history for us - and describing the future for those in Daniel's day.

Dan 2 and 7 start off with Babylon and then take empire after empire until they get to the 2nd coming.

Broad sweeps of time covering 2500 years.

Dan 8 does the same thing but deals with the historic events starting at the time of the Medes and the Persians and then finally concluding with the end of time - the latter days, the time of the end.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Martin Luther (1483-1546) [founder of the Lutheran Church] “nothing else than the kingdom of Babylon and of very Antichrist….For who is the man of sin and the son of perdition, but he who by his teaching and his ordinances increases the sin and perdition of souls in the church; while he yet sits in the church as if he were God? All these conditions have now for many ages been fulfilled by the papal tyranny.” Martin Luther, First Principles, pp. 196-197

John Calvin (1509-1564) [founder of the Presbyterian Church] “I deny him to be the vicar of Christ, who, in furiously persecuting the gospel, demonstrates by his conduct that he is Antichrist--I deny him to be the successor of Peter..I deny him to be the head of the church.” “Some persons think us too severe and censorious when we call the Roman pontiff Antichrist. But those who are of this opinion do not consider that they bring the same charge of presumption against Paul himself, after whom we speak and whose language we adopt…I shall briefly show that (Pauls words in 2 Thessalonians 2) are not capable of any other interpretation than that which applies them to the Papacy” John Calvin, Tracts, Vol. 1, pp. 219,220. John Calvin, Institutes.

John Wesley (1703-1791) [founder of the Methodist Church] “He is in an emphatical sense, the Man of Sin, as he increases all manner of sin above measure. And he is, too, properly styled the Son of Perdition, as he has caused the death of numberless multitudes, both of his opposers and followers… He it is…that exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped… claiming the highest power, and highest honor… claiming the prerogatives which belong to God alone.” Albert Close, Antichrist and His Ten Kingdoms, London: Thynne and Co., 1917, p. 110.

[teresaq]

The disciples had asked,...

Just pointing out that "the abomination of desolation" was a well known expression during Jesus' life, and that he predicted a recurrence of "the abomination of desolation" ....

Agape

[BobRyan]

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

There are other passages in the New Testament explicitly listing the Commandments as required by God for Christians. Keeping the Sabbath is not one of those explicitly listed requirements.

Jesus said "think not that I have come to abolish the law of God".

Romans 3:31 "do we then make void the law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God".

Heb 8 tells us of the OT teaching of the New Covenent - whereby the Law of God is written on the heart - instead of abolished.

Speaking of the Ten Commandments - the only commandment not quoted in full or even in part in the NT - is the commandment about not taking God's name in vain.

Fortunately for us Bible students - there is no such thing as a Bible teaching of the form "whatever is not contually repeated must be continually deleted".

Though some of our baptist friends have been inclined to imagine that such an idea were in the bible - it is not there.

in Christ,

Bob

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

[dgrimm60, with as much politeness as possible, that argument is a sophistry. First of all, where does The Bible tell us to pattern the details of our lives after Jesus?

1John 2:4-8 comes to mind. You make that statement as if you are unfamiliar with the text.

Your claim to years of study on these points is not carrying the day sir George

Have another shot at that one sir.

in Christ,

Bob

Have another shot at that one, sir? Hopefully, we are not taking pot shots at each other.

1Jn 2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1Jn 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jn 2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

I think I can see exactly where you are going with this. You intend to spring a prevalent (but not unanimous) Adventist opinion that only Adventists keep all the commandments of God, only they are assured of salvation. Nay, not so. Gentiles and Christians were never commanded to keep the Sabbath, in either the Torah or New Testament, except those gentile aliens living among the Jews. You cannot show such a command anywhere in Torah or the New Testament.

Now have another shot at these:

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,

Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Mat 19:20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?

Mat 19:21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

Act 15:1 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.

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Act 15:4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.

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Act 15:7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.

Act 15:8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;

Act 15:9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.

Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?

Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.

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Act 15:13 And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:

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Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:

Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

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Act 15:23 And they wrote letters by them after this manner; The apostles and elders and brethren send greeting unto the brethren which are of the Gentiles in Antioch and Syria and Cilicia:

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Act 15:27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth.

Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

-----------------------------------------------------------

Agape, God's love and good will,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Well George from Georgia -- I am Bob from Georgia and I will say that you have posted a truly creative introduction to your subject.

Okay, Bob, let this ole Zen Baptist (you don't get more heretical than that) respond to your several points in blue.

But as one who has spent one or two decades debating baptists from the Christian POV rather than an atheist POV -- I have to say that I find some flaws in your argument.

You debate Baptists? Good luck. Yer liable to come away with a headache from all that head butting. In a crowd of 5 Baptists, you will find more than 10 different opinions on any subject. Not to mention that Baptists can be rather hard headed. Sure, Baptists are high in count among new Adventist recruits. But let me say in good will, they tend not to stay recruited after so many years.

1. you claim 50 years of ranchor against your wife's SDA friends and relatives yet you claim that for 15 - 20 of those years you were either a dead-wrong atheist or a less-than-informed non-Christian ... a point that now even you will admit to. Thus it cannot be argued that your opposition against SDAs was all that informed for at least 15 years.

I can agree that atheists are dead wrong. They are mind dead. (As opposed to brain dead. St. Paul taught us that mind and brain are not the same.) By less-than-informed non-Christian, do you mean my present relationship to God as a non-Adventist Christian? And I really do not recall "opposition against SDAs". My opposition was to the then very prevalent and usually unloving sanctimonious attitude that I was lost and bound for the fiery pit whether Baptist or Atheist.

2. Without reading past your first post on this thread "I predict" you will try the old "slice and dice chopp and mix" on one of the timelines of Daniel 9 (the 70 weeks of years). If you do not attempt that giant leap into non-logic then I will be the first to give you the credit for avoiding at least one of the most classic errors for which Baptists are generally well known.

Well, no. I just accept The Book of Daniel as The Spirit leads me. Which means no over-reading or misreading of Scriptural prophecy. If my scribbles seem non-logical to you, show me. Gently please. I am an old man.

My observation above is nothing less than "stating the obvious" to observe that all prophetic timelines are contiguous. That includes the 70 years of Jeremiah mentioned in Dan 9 and also the 70 weeks of years.

If your objectivity has not brought you up to the modest milestone then you have a huge problem at the very instart in your claim to be more objective than the average Baptist.

Did I claim to be more objective than the average Baptist? No, I just said that Baptists are marginally(that very word) less --- [biased] --- than other protestants. And that's a mighty slim margin! And if I claimed to be unbiased, look back. It was obviously only in jest. I'm biased. You're biased. All God's children are biased. I hope you realize that you are biased in your heart of hearts - no jest on my part.

I will keep reading ... we shall see which way you went on that one.

in Christ,

Bob

Well, a buncha comments by both of us. I speak from the knocks, experience, mellowing and growing good will of 73 years. Some call that wisdom. How many years do you have?

Agape,

[BobRyan]

Bob said -- 1. you claim 50 years of ranchor against your wife's SDA friends and relatives yet you claim that for 15 - 20 of those years you were either a dead-wrong atheist or a less-than-informed non-Christian ... a point that now even you will admit to. Thus it cannot be argued that your opposition against SDAs was all that informed for at least 15 years.

George said: I can agree that atheists are dead wrong. They are mind dead. (As opposed to brain dead. St. Paul taught us that mind and brain are not the same.) By less-than-informed non-Christian, do you mean my present relationship to God as a non-Adventist Christian? And I really do not recall "opposition against SDAs". My opposition was to the then very prevalent and usually unloving sanctimonious attitude that I was lost and bound for the fiery pit whether Baptist or Atheist.

[BobRyan]

to dgrimm60

, with as much politeness as possible, that argument is a sophistry. First of all, where does The Bible tell us to pattern the details of our lives after Jesus?

[teresaq]

Yes, Jawge, we have been guilty of that. I believe many have worked on it, one or another. I think you agree.

But perhaps it is I who misunderstood what you said, and what you meant.

You stated that your opposition to SDAs was regarding how you were treated based on the attitudes at that time, for not being what they thought you should be. Did I read you wrong? Clarification would be appreciated.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

George said: ... And I really do not recall "opposition against SDAs". My opposition was to the then very prevalent and usually unloving sanctimonious attitude that I was lost and bound for the fiery pit whether Baptist or Atheist.

I was only speaking of the years you were a self-proclaimed atheist and the fact you will probably agree with me - that your opposition to Christians in general and your wife's SDA friends and relatives during that time - could hardly be considered a well-reasoned and informed objection that we might take seriously as Christians today.Bob

[JawgeFromJawja]

Bob:

(and others convinced Sabbath keeping is a commandment of God for all mankind)

First of all, please do not to be offended by me and others who disagree with Adventist theology or your belief systems, with the exception of an ad hominem attack, meaning an irrelevant personal attack adding nothing to a discussion. I field ad hominem attacks by pointing them out as such, and noting that they are always irrelevant and unhelpful except to bolster the attacker's ego. As others have pointed out, knowing objections to our belief systems can only strengthen our faith when we are right.

Your series of posts concerning the Sabbath marks the second derailment of the topic of record by the subject of Sabbath. I honestly don't mind! I am retired, have lots of spare time,and like many of you, the forum is a source of entertainment as well as instruction and reflection. Not to mention that for me, forum participation is required by the Adventist wife of my youth. But on reflection, off-topic diversions are terribly inefficient.

Again, I repeat that an explicit mandate for gentile Sabbath keeping cannot be found in The Bible. So far, all objections to that statement do not show a requirement for gentile Sabbath keeping (except those living among Jews). They simply show Bible passages that refer to the Sabbath, or that use the topic of Sabbath to make a point about something else.

I do not oppose Adventists! I love 'em, and I particularly cherish and passionately adore one of them. (Sometimes my behavior around her is reminiscent of a young moonstruck honeymooner.) So don't take offense with my disagreements. I disagree with much of Adventist theology. I disagree with much of Baptist theology. I disagree with much of Protestant reformation theology. And I certainly disagree with much of Catholicism. But disagreement per se is not opposition.

Let's get back on topic. The Lord Himself knows every off topic subject posted so far is important to our faith. But there are more efficient ways to publicize our faith, beliefs, concerns, beefs, and discontent. However, this ole Jawja Bulldawg does like a game match that preserves good will despite disagreements. For many of you, I perceive a need for airing the beliefs and the diverse theology of non-Adventists. So let me propose starting another topic soon, a topic that will air most of this ole heretic's beliefs and theology. The topic will encourage free-for-all discussion as long as it stops short of unwarranted hostility. The topic will begin after this coming Wednesday if there are no official objections.

God's love and blessings,