DaveM1936 Posted April 16, 2005 Share Posted April 16, 2005 Quote: Quote: shared relationship That isn't the gospel.... It simply amazes me what believers will call the gospel. One thing is apparent - those who pervert the gospel do so by adding "I".... C You are only making assertions. Prove from the Bible that Christ's work was finished at the Cross. Please explain what Jesus meant when He said: "It is finished" ? What was finished? Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 Quote: Please explain what Jesus meant when He said: "It is finished" ? What was finished? Everything that you experience and will experience is a result of "everything" being finished at the cross. The peace of justification and reconciliation to God was accomplished in and by Jesus....You simply made it effective in your life through faith. The growth experienced in sanctification has already been accomplished "in Christ"....By resting in Him by faith you now begin to experience victory over the flesh. When you receive your new life from "in Christ" you will be receiving something already accomplished at the cross. So from God's point of view Christ has done it all....But from your experience everything will not be accomplished in you until Christ returns. The sacrifice of Christ as an atonement for sin is the great truth around which all other truths cluster. In order to be rightly understood and appreciated, every truth in the Word of God, from Genesis to Revelation, must be studied in the light that streams from the cross of Calvary. – Ellen G. White (GW 315) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 17, 2005 Author Share Posted April 17, 2005 Quote: I am far more concerned about the Holy Spirit getting me ready for heaven, about the work God must complete IN ME. That, my friend, in a nutshell is what is wrong with Adventism....You are read for heaven NOW if Christ is your righteousness. Why? Ellen White: ...so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 17, 2005 Moderators Share Posted April 17, 2005 Speaking of the "shaking", are you not the one already shaken out? Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 18, 2005 Author Share Posted April 18, 2005 Quote: Speaking of the "shaking", are you not the one already shaken out? Gerry Your problem is that you are equating church attendance with being "in" and non-church attendance with being "out" I would love to attend a church like the early Christian church. They had the genuine gospel in their midst.... I do not attend the local SDA church because they teach a perverted gospel. They are cold - they are legalistic.... However there are other SDA churches....That is an issue that my wife and I are slowly working on. Legalism has damaged my family in ways you would not understand....Why should I go and partake of that again? You must remember the basic concept of Church (besides preaching the gospel) is to strengthen the faith of fellow believers....Well, legalism tears it down. It is destructive. As far as your suggestion that I have been "shaken out"...well, that is untrue. The message to the Laodicean church will cause the self-righteous to go to where their sympathies have long been tending...i.e., to Babylon. I am not in Babylon....Make sure in principle you are not there also! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 18, 2005 Moderators Share Posted April 18, 2005 "Jesus came to Galilee, preaching the gospel of the kingdom of God, and saying, 'The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand. REPENT, and believe in the gospel." Mk 1:14,15 NKJ. "So He began to teach them MANY THINGS." Mk 6:34 NKJ. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 Quote: "So He began to teach them MANY THINGS." Mk 6:34 NKJ. Gerry [:"red"] "For I am not ashamed of this Good News about Christ. It is the power of God at work, saving everyone who believes--Jews first and also Gentiles. " [/] Rom 1:16 NLT Gerry would the verse above and these conclusions fit into your conclusions? Gospel: the message concerning Christ, the kingdom of God, and salvation. Salvation: deliverance from the power and effects of sin. It does seem important to me to know whether I have been delivered and from what. 1. Saved from worshipping a false God. [:"red"] You shall have no other gods before Me or besides Me [/] 2. Saved from making any graven images to bow down to. [:"red"] You shall not make for yourself [to worship] a graven image or any likeness of anything that is in the heavens above or that is in the earth beneath or that is in the water under the earth. [/] 3. Saved from using God's name vainly. [:"red"] You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in falsehood or without purpose. [/] 4. Saved from forgetting the day God chose for His Sabbath. [:"red"] Observe the Sabbath day to keep it holy, as the Lord your God commanded you.[/] 5. Saved from dishonoring my father and mother. [:"red"] Honor your father and your mother, as the Lord your God commanded you, that your days may be prolonged and that it may go well with you in the land which the Lord your God gives you.[/] 6. Saved from murdering anyone. [:"red"] You shall not murder. [/] 7. Saved from adultery. [:"red"] Neither shall you commit adultery [/] 8. Saved from stealing. [:"red"] Neither shall you act slyly or steal. [/] 9. Saved from lying about my neighbor [:"red"] Neither shall you witness falsely against your neighbor [/] 10. Saved from wishing for my neighbor's possessions. [:"red"] Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife, nor desire your neighbor's house, his field, his manservant or his maidservant, his ox or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's.[/] Believe me when I say this is no reflection of any personal goodness. Where there are failures the gift of repentance has been accorded when asked for. As for the victories, they are the result of the indwelling Christ. [:"red"] "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." [/] Romans 7:18 KJV [:"red"] "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." [/] Galatians 2:20 KJV Sounds like the gospel (good news) to me! Keep contending for the faith! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 19, 2005 Author Share Posted April 19, 2005 10. Saved from wishing for my neighbor's possessions. Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife, nor desire your neighbor's house, his field, his manservant or his maidservant, his ox or his donkey, or anything that is your neighbor's. Sorry...that's a brief disciption. The law written on stone was never to be a full desciption of sin. Keeping the letter isn't good enough...you must keep the spirit of the law also. The spirit of the law tells us that "self-seeking" is coveting! So if we make the gospel what God does in us then the hope of salvation goes out the window becaue we "fall short" of God's selfless (the opposite of self-seeking) love. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted April 19, 2005 Share Posted April 19, 2005 2 Cor 3:3: You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts. (NIV) Do you believe that the gospel is only justification by faith? "Whenever man accomplishes anything, it is by co-operation with his Maker; but in the saving of the souls of men, God does all the work, making man (others) His instrument." RH 5-6-1890. If God is doing all the work, then isn't whatever God is doing in and for me the gospel? Nothing is based on what I can do. My part is to be an instrument used by the Holy Spirit to bring others to God so He can do all the work in them also. Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 19, 2005 Moderators Share Posted April 19, 2005 Quote: The spirit of the law tells us that "self-seeking" is coveting! So if we make the gospel what God does in us then the hope of salvation goes out the window becaue we "fall short" of God's selfless (the opposite of self-seeking) love. [:"blue"]You think that what God does in a person [sanctification] is not good news because you think God has only power to forgive and not powerful enough to keep one from falling when the Bible is full of promises that He can. [:"red"]"No one who abides in Him sins; no one who sins has seen Him or knows Him. Little children, let no one deceive you; the one who practices righteous is righteous, just as He is righteous; the one who practices sin is of the devil; ..... No one who is born of God practices sin, because His seed abides in him; and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. By this the children of God and the children of the devil are obvious: any one who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor the one who does not love his brother." 1 Jn 3:6-10 NASB. [/] What God does in the believer is never the believer's work. The believer's work is to abide in Him, and cooperate with Him. Nothing done by the believer is EVER salvific. Salvation is the work of God through faith from start to finish. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 20, 2005 Author Share Posted April 20, 2005 Quote: Do you believe that the gospel is only justification by faith? Justification by faith is not the gospel. The gospel justifies fallen mankind "in Christ"....The reception of this truth is called "justification by faith." The gospel is what Christ did in our humanity some 2000 years ago. Quote: If God is doing all the work, then isn't whatever God is doing in and for me the gospel? No, because what God does in you is the fruit of the gospel. That work is always ongoing and incomplete....Ellen White states that we will never reach perfection this side of eternity! Why not? Our cooperation is not perfect.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 20, 2005 Author Share Posted April 20, 2005 Quote: The believer's work is to abide in Him, and cooperate with Him. Nothing done by the believer is EVER salvific. Salvation is the work of God through faith from start to finish. Rom 1:7 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The just by faith will live.” The justified, Gerry, will get eternal life by faith....That's what "the just by faith will live" means. Fruit? Sure....Perfection? Nope.... Therefore the emphasis most go on the gospel as that which saves....Everything else is just icing on the cake.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted April 20, 2005 Share Posted April 20, 2005 Quote: Justification by faith is not the gospel. The gospel justifies fallen mankind "in Christ"....The reception of this truth is called "justification by faith." The gospel is what Christ did in our humanity some 2000 years ago. Then Matthew, Mark, Luke and John are the Gospel? Am I to understand that justification by faith is not part of the gospel? Quote: No, because what God does in you is the fruit of the gospel. That work is always ongoing and incomplete....Ellen White states that we will never reach perfection this side of eternity! Why not? Our cooperation is not perfect.... I have abandomed the idea of perfection years ago. Whether one believes that perfection is possible or whether he believes it is impossible, are just two sides of the same coin. Jesus told the young ruler that only God was good (perfect). God's character = the law= equals Jesus' life on earth. So when you say that Jesus' life is the gospel, you could also say that God's character is the gospel. This does not sound like good news to me. Good news would be that Jesus takes upon Himself the work of living out this character in me. While I like the good news that Jesus provided forgiveness for my sinfulness, I like the good news even more that He takes up resisdence in my heart and home, no matter what kind of character I had before He entered my life. That Jesus is my Best Friend, is the best good news of all. Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 21, 2005 Author Share Posted April 21, 2005 Quote: Am I to understand that justification by faith is not part of the gospel? No....The gospel is what Christ did in our humanity. In it He justified it! In it He sanctified it! In it He also glorified it! All this is true "in Christ" 1 Cor 1:30 But by His [God the Father's] doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, that is, our justification and sanctification, and redemption [glorification], 31 that, just as it is written, “Let him who boasts, boast in the Lord. The above is the gospel! The below is the fruit of accepting the gospel: When you receive it by faith you have justification by faith. As you maintain your faith in Him you begin to experience what is already true of you "in Him" or sanctification! And at the 2nd coming you will receive your glorified life currently residing "in Christ Jesus." At that moment you will be perfect and Holy!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveM1936 Posted April 21, 2005 Share Posted April 21, 2005 It seems to me that we believe the same thing. We are just expressing it differently. Maybe we are disagreeing over word interpretations. Your friend, Dave M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 21, 2005 Moderators Share Posted April 21, 2005 Quote: The justified, Gerry, will get eternal life by faith....That's what "the just by faith will live" means. [:"blue"]Not only will the believer live because he/she has faith. The believer is also to live by, work by, love by, obey by, breathe by, pray by, & through faith. [/] Quote: Fruit? Sure....Perfection? Nope.... [:"blue"]Perfection in this life? Never claimed it. The only perfection I have ever claimed in this life is the perfection of Christ bestowed on me. [/] Quote: Therefore the emphasis most go on the gospel as that which saves....Everything else is just icing on the cake.... [:"blue"]Salvation is NOT complete until every trace of sin in God's universe has been eradicated. So, everything that has to do with the final dissolution of sin IS Good News, of which the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ is the heart!!! [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 21, 2005 Moderators Share Posted April 21, 2005 All part of the Gospel as I understand it. Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 22, 2005 Author Share Posted April 22, 2005 Quote: Salvation is NOT complete until every trace of sin in God's universe has been eradicated. So, everything that has to do with the final dissolution of sin IS Good News, of which the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ is the heart!!! In Christ every trace of sin has been eradicated! That's the gospel. What you are talking about is the curse...the destruction of those who reject Christ's righteousness. That is bad news to both the unbelievers and God....God doesn’t experience joy in abandoning the unbeliever. You are wrong again, Rob Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 22, 2005 Moderators Share Posted April 22, 2005 Quote: Quote: Salvation is NOT complete until every trace of sin in God's universe has been eradicated. So, everything that has to do with the final dissolution of sin IS Good News, of which the birth, life, death & resurrection of Christ is the heart!!! In Christ every trace of sin has been eradicated! That's the gospel. What you are talking about is the curse...the destruction of those who reject Christ's righteousness. That is bad news to both the unbelievers and God....God doesn’t experience joy in abandoning the unbeliever. You are wrong again, Rob [:"blue"]If every trace of sin has been eradicated, then why are we still here? [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 22, 2005 Author Share Posted April 22, 2005 Quote: If every trace of sin has been eradicated, then why are we still here? In Christ every trace of sin has been eradicated! That's the gospel. Yes, as a child of fallen Adam, you are still here, but nevertheless "in Christ" you have a new, glorified life completely free of every trace of sin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 25, 2005 Moderators Share Posted April 25, 2005 Quote: Quote: If every trace of sin has been eradicated, then why are we still here? In Christ every trace of sin has been eradicated! That's the gospel. Yes, as a child of fallen Adam, you are still here, but nevertheless "in Christ" you have a new, glorified life completely free of every trace of sin. [:"blue"]False gospel!!! The devil is still very much alive. Wake up Robert! He's still stalking you & me!!! The aroma of your "in Christ" theology does not smell like the aroma of life to me. [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 25, 2005 Author Share Posted April 25, 2005 Quote: Quote: Quote: If every trace of sin has been eradicated, then why are we still here? In Christ every trace of sin has been eradicated! That's the gospel. Yes, as a child of fallen Adam, you are still here, but nevertheless "in Christ" you have a new, glorified life completely free of every trace of sin. False gospel!!! Gerry "In Christ" is the false gospel? Okay...good luck under the law! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 26, 2005 Moderators Share Posted April 26, 2005 Quote: "In Christ" is the false gospel? Okay...good luck under the law! [:"blue"]Is said it is YOUR "in Christ" theology that is false!!! Please, don't equate your theology with what the Bible is saying because you are way too far off base!!! [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robert Posted April 27, 2005 Author Share Posted April 27, 2005 Quote: Quote: "In Christ" is the false gospel? Okay...good luck under the law! [:"blue"]Is said it is YOUR "in Christ" theology that is false!!! Please, don't equate your theology with what the Bible is saying because you are way too far off base!!! [/] So "in Christ" I do not already stand justified, sanctified and glorified? [see 1 cor 1:30] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted April 29, 2005 Moderators Share Posted April 29, 2005 Quote: Quote: Quote: "In Christ" is the false gospel? Okay...good luck under the law! [:"blue"]Is said it is YOUR "in Christ" theology that is false!!! Please, don't equate your theology with what the Bible is saying because you are way too far off base!!! [/] So "in Christ" I do not already stand justified, sanctified and glorified? [see 1 cor 1:30] [:"blue"]As I said before, Robert, the Gospel is much bigger, higher, wider, & deeper than we can imagine. There is a four-fold aspect to salvation that you might want to consider. These are Fink's 4 P's. 1) Salvation from the Penalty of sin. This occurs when the sinner believes & is forgiven/justified. [:"red"]"But according to His mercy He saved us [past tense]." Tit 3:5 [/] 2 & 3) Salvation from the Power & Pleasure of sin. This is the present & on-going process taking place right now. Are Christians still struggling with the power of sin in their lives? Is the Christian's flesh still find pleasure in sin? [:"red"]"For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved [present tense], it is the power of God." 1 Cor 1:18 [/] 4) Salvation from the Presence of sin. This will not happen until the devil & all his followers are blotted out from the universe. [:"red"] "For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it in hope; because the creation itself also will be delivered [future tense] from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation groans and labors with birth pangs together until now. Not only that, but we also who have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourslves, [present experience], eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body."[future yet] Rom 8:20-24 (All references from NKJ "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all SHALL BE made alive. But each one in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, afterward those who are Christ's at His coming. Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power [future yet]. For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. [still future]" 1 Cor 15: 22-26 NKJ.[/] [/] Gerry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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