No Prophetic Time after 1844

[hch]

Quote:

The world placed all time-proclamation on the same level and called it a delusion, fanaticism and heresy. Ever since 1844 … Our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming. We do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that Christ is at the door.10MR 270.1 & 16MR 178.2

The world’s position that places all time-proclamation on the same level is contrasted with our explicit position. Our position is not of all time-proclamation, but specifically that no time-proclamation is to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and the time of our Lord's coming, because we do not know when the definite time is. After 1844, there is no specific proclamation of the time of our Lord's coming.

What were the prophetic periods spoken of here? “The time of the cleansing of the sanctuary —which was almost universally believed to take place at the Second Advent—was definitely pointed out.” (GC88 328.2) “The 2300 years of Daniel 8:14 must terminate with 1843. Accordingly we looked to the end of this year for the coming of the Lord.” (ST, March 30, 1876 par. 1) “God tested and proved His people by the passing of the time in 1843. The mistake made in reckoning the prophetic periods was not at once discovered…” (LS80 186.1)

The prophetic period, the 2300-years extending from 457 BC to 1843 when the Sanctuary was to be cleansed, was definitely pointed out as the time of Christ’s Advent. Early Adventists including Ellen White also knew that the papacy was supreme from 538 AD to 1798, a period of 1260-years within the 2300-years and that the 1290-days foretold in Daniel 12 were the 1290-years from 508 to 1798. Thus when the 1335-days ended in 1843; the prophetic period from 457 BC to 1843 was the 2300-years of Daniel 8:14; and that the 1260, 1290, and 1335-years of Daniel 12 all fit that timeframe perfectly. Ellen White explained: “the 1843 chart was directed by the hand of the Lord, and that it should not be altered; that the figures were as He wanted them.” (EW 74.1) But when Jesus did not come in 1843, the early Adventists reexamined and recalculated the prophetic period.

“The prophetic periods reached to 1844 and that the same evidence which they had presented to show that the prophetic periods closed in 1843 proved that they would terminate in 1844.” (EW 236.1) How can the same evidence possibly prove that the prophetic period from 457 BC closed in 1843 and terminated a second time in 1844?

The intersection of BC with AD is like a time zone. A man from Chattanooga is doing lunch with a friend in Nashville. To meet at noon, they must specify the time zone because noon in Nashville is 1:00 in Chattanooga, and noon Chattanooga time is 11:00 in Nashville.

Likewise, the 2300-years viewed from the BC perspective ended in 1843 and when viewed from the AD perspective, they ended in 1844. After Christ did not come in 1843, it was discovered that 1844 aligned perfectly with the prophecy of Daniel 9 identifying Christ’s baptism in 27 AD, His crucifixion 3.5-years later, and the gospel going to the Gentiles in 34 AD. This prophecy had 1810-years remaining that counted down to 1844, and “in the year 1844 … the 22d of October, was regarded as the time of the Lord’s coming.” (GC88 399.3)

[hch]

Since Jesus did not come in 1844 either and the dual fulfillment of the 2300-years of prophetic time were understood and it was obvious that time was correct from both the BC and AD perspectives, something other than the timing had to be in error. The cleansing of the Sanctuary that was assumed to be Christ’s Advent was reexamined. “Thus those who followed in the light of the prophetic word saw, that, instead of coming to the earth at the termination of the 2300 days in 1844, Christ then entered the most holy place of the heavenly sanctuary, to perform the closing work of atonement.” (GC88 422.1 and see 4SP 266.2) The error was not the timing, but the event.

For Seventh-day Adventists, understanding the 2300 and the 1335-years are blessings, but they are blessings that the world has lost. It is a blessing to know that Bible prophecy is true and trustworthy and that Jesus is Coming Again for His saints and that the evil done by the man of sin has been counteracted by light from Heaven that dispels the darkness. It is a blessing to know that Jesus is ministering in the Sanctuary in Heaven; confessing the names of His saints before His Father and the holy angels. And it is a blessing to know that this is the time to live life to the glory of God as one who will be rewarded for the way that the life is lived. And while Jesus is confessing the saints in Heaven, they are also blessed as they confess Him here.

Our position matured as prophetic understanding increased. But since our position is that no time-proclamation is to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 to give the definite time of Christ’s Advent, has a private interpretation changed our position to the world’s position that places all time-proclamation on the same level? Is the changed signpost now pointing the wrong way? Perhaps misreading of Ellen’s grammatical phrasing is partly at fault? But now instead of being different from the world’s position, our position is: ALL TIME PROPHECY STOPPED at 1844! For our position to be: No Time Prophecy Beyond 1844, it has to be different from our position that Ellen set forth that Time prophecy specifying the definite time of our Lord's coming stopped after 1844. In the opening statement, our position is clearly not one of ALL TIME PROPHECY and when the context is considered, Ellen repeatedly links our position to the time of Christ’s Coming.

Quote:

The time-setters have pronounced the curse of the Lord upon me as an unbeliever who said, My Lord delayeth His coming. But I have told them that the books of heaven would not make my record thus, for the Lord knows that I loved and longed for the appearing of Christ. But their oft-repeated message of definite time was exactly what the enemy wanted, and it served his purpose well to unsettle the faith in the first proclamation of time, that was of heavenly origin. 10MR 269.3 & 16MR 178.1

After the first proclamation of the time of Christ’s Advent that was ordained of Heaven past in 1843 and 1844, the definite time of Christ’s Second Advent was often recalculated by time-setters, who were undermining the faith of God’s people. Then Ellen explains that the world placed all prophetic time-proclamation on the same level and called it a delusion. But ever since 1844 our position has been one of waiting and watching, with no time-proclamation giving the definite time of our Lord's coming to intervene between the close of the prophetic periods in 1844 and Christ’s coming because we do not know the day nor the hour, or when the definite time is, and yet the prophetic reckoning shows us that the appointed time is at the door. Then she repeats that the prophetic time in question is the definite time of Christ’s Advent:

Quote:

We have not cast away our confidence, neither have we a message dependent upon definite time, but we are waiting and watching unto prayer, looking for and loving the appearing of our Savior…. 10MR 270.2 & 16MR 178.3

Our position has been and should be a belief that is not dependent on knowing the definite time of Christ’s coming. The truth is that: 1) the time proclamations identifying the definite time of Christ’s Advent in 1843/44 are scripturally correct; 2) other than the 1843/44 dates, the day or time of Christ’s Advent is not given in Scripture; 3) Christ’s Advent will come at an appointed time; and 4) attempting to recalculate the time of Christ’s Second Advent is biblically unsound eschatology that destroys faith. (See EW 22.1)

Though Ellen White corrected the errors of the time-setters and clearly made a distinction between our position and the position put forth by the world, how did our position that there will be no proclamation giving the day and hour intervening between 1844 and Christ’s Advent get changed to the world’s position that places all time-proclamation on the same level: No Time Prophecy Beyond 1844? “At that time [after the 1844 disappointment] one error after another pressed in upon us; ministers and doctors brought in new doctrines.” (3SM 31.4)

Ellen White does not contradict herself or the Bible. “I would not be inclined to set time for Christ to come, and thus place myself under the same condemnation with those whom I was reproving.” (LS80 221.1) But by replacing our position with the private interpretation that has crept into the church, our position now contradicts both Ellen White and the Bible regarding prophetic time.

How so? If there is No Time Prophecy Beyond 1844, then the Bible and Ellen White will contradict our position when they cite prophetic time after 1844.

[hch]

Ellen wrote: “Study the Revelation in connection with Daniel; for history will be repeated.” (SpTA07 55.1) But as the widely accepted private interpretation tears our position on prophetic time from its context, it also tears the repeating of prophetic history from the very prophecies that predict the history. It asserts: The history will be repeated but not the prophecy.

Is history independent of the prophecy that foretold it? Since prophecy predicts the history, when the prophecy repeats, the history repeats.

When the little book of Daniel was opened in Revelation 10, Heaven consoled the believers, who were disappointed by their misunderstanding of Daniel’s prophecy relating to 1843 and 1844. Heaven declared, “Thou must prophesy again” (v. 11). Thus Daniel and/or Revelation will prophesy again, but the time element is changed because the command is within the context: “there should be time no longer” (v. 6).

In Bible prophecy, a day is a year -- long time. For time to be no longer, when these prophecies prophesy again after that declaration, a day cannot be a year (long time), a day must be literal time.

Quote:

In the Scriptures are presented truths that relate especially to our own time. To the period just prior to the appearing of the Son of man, the prophecies of Scripture point, and here their warnings and threatenings pre-eminently apply. The prophetic periods of Daniel, extending to the very eve of the great consummation, throw a flood of light upon events then to transpire. The book of Revelation is also replete with warning and instruction for the last generation. The beloved John, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, portrays the fearful and thrilling scenes connected with the close of earth's history, and presents the duties and dangers of God’s people. None need remain in ignorance; none need be unprepared for the coming of the day of God. (RH, September 25, 1883 par. 6)

The prophetic periods of Daniel throw a flood of light upon events to transpire in the end time and with Revelation, they relate especially to our own time. From the context, the command to prophesy again in Revelation also applies to Daniel. In our own time, the period just prior to the appearing of the Son of man, to which the prophecies of Scripture point, here their warnings and threatenings pre-eminently apply. Ellen is not divorcing the prophecies from the history that they foretell. “The book of Daniel is unsealed in the revelation to John, and carries us forward to the last scenes of this earth’s history.” (TM 115.3) “Those things which have been will be repeated.” (17MR 11.1)

Quote:

“Power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.” And, says the prophet, “I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death.” And again, “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity; he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword.” [Revelation 13:5, 3, & 10.] The forty and two months … began with the establishment of the papacy, A. D. 538, and terminated in 1798. At that time … the prediction was fulfilled, “He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity.” (GC88 439.2)

Quote:

The Lord himself revealed to his servant John the mysteries of the book of Revelation, and He designs that they shall be open to the study of all. In this book are depicted scenes that are now in the past, and some of eternal interest that are taking place around us; other of its prophecies will not receive their complete fulfillment until the close of time, when the last great conflict between the powers of darkness and the Prince of heaven will take place. (RH, August 31, 1897 par. 5)

Quote:

In the last days Satan will appear as an angel of light … Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator’s prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] 19MR 282.1

Particularly notice Revelation 13:5 "And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months ."

Though Ellen states that the 42-months have been fulfilled in the past; 58-years after 1844, she quotes Revelation 13:5 in the context that the 42-months will have a final fulfillment in the last days. They cannot be 1260-years. They are literal time. And by quoting the Bible to predict a specific prophetic time in the last days that intervenes between 1844 and Christ’s Advent, Ellen contradicts the private interpretation: No Time Prophecy Beyond 1844.

If not corrected, this private interpretation will steal the blessing from God’s people as Satan has stolen the blessing of prophetic understanding from the world. Heaven’s blessings are not to be carelessly lost or stolen through satanic theories that are accepted as truth!

By their fulfillment, the prophecies of Daniel and John now explain themselves. The 1260, 1290, and 1335-days are waymarks in God’s word to those living in the last days. “The great waymarks of truth, showing us our bearing in prophetic history, are to be carefully guarded, lest they be torn down and replaced with theories that would bring confusion rather than genuine light.” (1MR 54.3)

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[Lysimachus]

Ellen White's quote of Revelation 13:4-18 has nothing to do with a "final fulfillment" concerning the "time element" of that verse. Rather, she is just quoting the full portion only to give a thorough background, but what she really means is that the final fulfillment takes place concerning verses 13-18. People read way too much into that if you ask me.

If anything, only the 1260, 1290 and 1335 of Daniel 12 MAY have a dual application, but I see no dual application in Revelation 13, as that means you would have to repeat verses 4-18 as happening twice--again in the future, and we know that the Beast is not going to have another deadly wound and then heal again. We also know that the Lamb-Like Beast is not going to come up out of the Earth again.

[hch]

Ellen White's quote of Revelation 13:4-18 has nothing to do with a "final fulfillment" concerning the "time element" of that verse. Rather, she is just quoting the full portion only to give a thorough background, but what she really means is that the final fulfillment takes place concerning verses 13-18. People read way too much into that if you ask me.

If anything, only the 1260, 1290 and 1335 of Daniel 12 MAY have a dual application, but I see no dual application in Revelation 13, as that means you would have to repeat verses 4-18 as happening twice--again in the future, and we know that the Beast is not going to have another deadly wound and then heal again. We also know that the Lamb-Like Beast is not going to come up out of the Earth again.

[hch]

In light of what I have posted, EGW is not contradicting herself. thus she must be saying:'I have borne the testimony since the passing of the time in 1844 [when Christ did not come], that there should be no definite time set [for the Second Advent] by which to test God's people. The great test on time [relating to the hour of Christ's Advent] was in 1843 and 1844; and all who have set time [for the appearing of Christ] since this great period marked in prophecy, were deceiving and being deceived.' {LS88 221.1}

That is the correct meaning of what she said. Or she is contradicting herself and the Bible when she gives an example of prophetic time that intervenes between 1844 and Christ's Advent. Certainly if she had intended us to believe that there is NO prophetic time to intervene between 1844 and Christ's Advent whether it is the 42-months of Rev 13:5 or the 1260, 1290, or 1335-days of Daniel 12, she would not have cited any examples of prophetic time in that interval.

By having us misunderstand a plain statement from the Spirit of Prophecy Satan is casting his shadow over the final message so that we will not see the very thing that God put into His word for our admonition.

The error that some would attribute to me is that they want to read me as if I were setting a time for the Second Advent. The test of time has past and it is not coming again! The final test is belief in the Third Angel's Message! My understanding of the time references in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy tell me that IT IS TIME FOR THE 3RD ANGEL'S MESSAGE TO BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY because the Mark of the Beast is soon to be upon us!

[hch]

... I see no dual application in Revelation 13, as that means you would have to repeat verses 4-18 as happening twice--again in the future, and we know that the Beast is not going to have another deadly wound and then heal again. We also know that the Lamb-Like Beast is not going to come up out of the Earth again.

[teresaq]

Friend; if you did not know it - WE ARE IN THE TIME OF TROUBLE SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL THE PROPHET. ..

I believe we are in the little time of trouble right now leading up to the time of trouble.

Do you believe the time of trouble begins before the sunday law is enforced?

[John317]

....Thus if she had intended to say that portions of Revelation 13:4-18 would be repeated; she would have deleted the portions that she did not intend to imply or specifically say were to be repeated.

In this example, she left in the 42-months.

Originally Posted By: EGW

In the last days Satan will appear as an angel of light, with great power and heavenly glory, and claim to be the Lord of the whole earth. He will declare that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh to the first day of the week; and as lord of the first day of the week he will present this spurious sabbath as a test of loyalty to him. Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] {19MR 282.1}

When Ellen White stated that Revelation 13:4-18 would have a final fulfillment; SHE DID NOT REMOVE THE TIME ELEMENT.

By a final fulfillement, Ellen White is saying that the prophecies found in Rev. 13: 4-18 will be completely fulfilled. She is not saying that parts of the prophecies-- such as the 42 months, for instance-- weren't fulfilled already and will have another application and fulfillment. She's talking about the United States supporting the Papacy in making the image to the beast and requiring the world to receive the mark of the beast. The mortal wound will be completely healed. This is what she means by "final fulfillment." If Ellen White intended for us to believe the entire prophecy would be fulfilled all over again, including the time prophecies, it seems to me she would have referred to it as a "second fulfillment" and left no doubt about their happening again.

Originally Posted By: Ellen G. White

In the last days Satan will appear as an angel of light, with great power and heavenly glory, and claim to be the Lord of the whole earth. He will declare that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh to the first day of the week; and as lord of the first day of the week he will present this spurious sabbath as a test of loyalty to him. Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] {19MR 282.1}

In connection with this scripture, the entire fourteenth chapter of Revelation should be studied much by God's people. Verses nine to eleven bring to view the special message of warning against worshiping the beast and his image, and receiving his mark in the forehead or in the hand. This warning is to be given to the world by those who are mentioned in the twelfth verse as keeping "the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus." {19MR 282.2}

[Lysimachus]

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Forgive me, hch, if I missed your answer above on this, but I did not see it.

You seemed to ignore my primary contention with stating that Revelation 13:4-18 will all be repeated.

Notice the highlight above. The Beast will receive a deadly wound, and the Lamb-Like Beast will come out of the earth.

If all of Revelation 13:4-18 is to be repeated again in the future, does this mean that the Lamb-Like Beast will arise out of the earth again?

[Lysimachus]

I should also not fail to mention that according to Revelation 13:4-18, the Lamb-Like Beast comes up out of the earth after the 42 months.

If the 42 months are to repeat, as well as all the other elements in Revelation 13:4-18, then wouldn't we be forced to conclude that there will be another United States of America coming up out of the earth AFTER the 42 months?

Even you know that if the 42 months were to be applied as literal and future, this would mark the end of the world. Therefore, to speak of a lamb-like beast coming up out of the earth and causing all to worship the beast after the 42 month period would seem to me quite problematic.

[John317]

....9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

....Notice the highlight above. The Beast will receive a deadly wound, and the Lamb-Like Beast will come out of the earth.

If all of Revelation 13:4-18 is to be repeated again in the future, does this mean that the Lamb-Like Beast will arise out of the earth again?

That's a very important point. Those events of prophecy in verses 10 and 11 happened about 1798-1799. The sea-beast was going into captivity about the same time as the earth-beast was rising onto the scene of history. And not long after this, the Remnant church along with the Spirit of prophecy was coming up as well.

I find it impossible to believe that we are to expect all of these prophecies to be fulfilled all over again.

Some prophecies will be fulfilled again, however-- such as the proclamation of the fall of Babylon. This will happen when Babylon completely falls away from truth in the forming of the image to the beast and the making of its mark.

[Truth Files]

You will never get it right until you discover this truth:

No prophetic time in the scope of the visions after the end of the 69th week decreed for Israel [not the church] [about 33 A.D.]

All of the visions are silent after this .... no events are recorded .... none

The balance of the unfulfilled prophetic events are still pending at this time .... not to begin until the Lord brings the 70th week decreed and beyond

[Lysimachus]

You will never get it right until you discover this truth:

No prophetic time in the scope of the visions after the end of the 69th week decreed for Israel [not the church] [about 33 A.D.]

All of the visions are silent after this .... no events are recorded .... none

The balance of the unfulfilled prophetic events are still pending at this time .... not to begin until the Lord brings the 70th week decreed and beyond

First off, your date of 33 A.D. is wrong. Christ did not die in 33 A.D. Christ was not born in 1 A.D. or 1 B.C. He was born anywhere between 3 and 5 B.C. As I have already shown you, the 69th week ended in 27 A.D., at Christ's anointing at His baptism. He was "about 30 years old" at this point. Adding up the number of Passovers, His ministry lasted for 3 1/2 years, and accounting for the last Passover He had with His disciples, that brings Christ's death on the cross in 31 A.D. -- the "midst of the week". So 33 A.D. is out of the equation.

"all visions are silent after this". I suppose John on the Isle of Patmos around 96 A.D. had "no visions" "after this"?

I suppose the 1260 years of Papal Persecution during the Dark Ages were not "future" from John's time? I suppose the fall of the Roman Empire was not "future" from John's time?

Futurists will never be satisfied concerning a transpired event. To them, it will "never meet the Biblical criteria". Therefore, to a Futurist, the past is always left "unchecked" in favor of imaginary future fulfillments that will never transpire, and never meet their fanciful criterion. No matter how much time elapses, they will continue to shove everything in the future and leave past events as "unimportant in God's prophetic chart".

What utter abuse of God's prophetic declarations, and total mockery and shipwreck of God's divine foreknowledge.

[Truth Files]

Revelation is a vision of the future [the things "here after"] and related to the coming of the Lord's hour [time] of trial and judgment against an intransigent unbelieving world [2550 days of it] .... and beyond

I am still waiting for your response to Zechariah 14 .... a verse by verse account .... seems like you now have the time .... no?

And I still want you to prove what you claimed that I stated about Antiochus IV [that he is the little horn in Daniel's visions] on this forum .... you can't

My next question is, why do you make up things in order to discredit a poster when they do not agree with your theology?

[Lysimachus]

Revelation is a vision of the future [the things "here after"] and related to the coming of the Lord's hour [time] of trial and judgment against an intransigent unbelieving world [2550 days of it] .... and beyond

[Truth Files]

"I have never arbitrarily made anything up. Perhaps the reason why we come to wrong conclusions about what you believe is because you do not write clearly"

>There you go again with your stories .... always circling around the facts

>You say that I tell of Antiochus IV being the little horn of Daniel's, when in fact I teach just the opposite

.... so you post the evidence for the forum to support your claim

>You made this accusation up and you know this

>Your should stick with your "books" and cease attempting to discredit those who disagree with those who base their discoveries on what can be found in the Lord's Word

>Running around and trolling my posts is a waste of your limited time

[John317]

At any rate, 2300 evening-mornings represent days, and the Septuagint agrees with this. There is no exegetical basis for 1150 days. The order is from evening to morning, not from morning to evening like the sacrifices were held.

The evidence for this has been presented several times already. There is absolutely no exegetical reason to believe it is 1150 days. The only reason this is sometimes done is that they are attempting to make the time period fit the time of Antiochus IV, but it doesn't help them because even that period does not harmonize with the facts of history.

Consider these facts in the case:

1) There is no reason for Daniel to be upset and sick over 1150 literal days, which is not even 4 years.

2) According to Daniel 8: 17, 20, and 26 the vision of the 2300 evening-mornings was concerning "the time of the end," "the latter of time of indignation," and "refers to many days in the future" (NKJV). Therefore, it cannot be referring to the a mere 1150 literal days, which did not even reach beyond the end of the Seleucid empire.

3) Daniel 8: 26 says that the vision is to be "sealed up." Why would this vision be "sealed up" if it only 1150 days long? No logical reason can be given.

[Lysimachus]

The evidence for this has been presented several times already. There is absolutely no exegetical reason to believe it is 1150 days. The only reason this is sometimes done is that they are attempting to make the time period fit the time of Antiochus IV, but it doesn't help them because even that period does not harmonize with the facts of history.

Consider these facts in the case:

1) There is no reason for Daniel to be upset and sick over 1150 literal days, which is not even 4 years.

2) According to Daniel 8: 17, 20, and 26 the vision of the 2300 evening-mornings was concerning "the time of the end," "the latter of time of indignation," and "refers to many days in the future" (NKJV). Therefore, it cannot be referring to the a mere 1150 literal days, which did not even reach beyond the end of the Seleucid empire.

3) Daniel 8: 26 says that the vision is to be "sealed up." Why would this vision be "sealed up" if it only 1150 days long? No logical reason can be given.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

Friend; if you did not know it - WE ARE IN THE TIME OF TROUBLE SPOKEN OF BY DANIEL THE PROPHET. ..

I believe we are in the little time of trouble right now leading up to the time of trouble.

Do you believe the time of trouble begins before the sunday law is enforced?

[hch]

By a final fulfillement, Ellen White is saying that the prophecies found in Rev. 13: 4-18 will be completely fulfilled. She is not saying that parts of the prophecies-- such as the 42 months, for instance-- weren't fulfilled already and will have another application and fulfillment. She's talking about the United States supporting the Papacy in making the image to the beast and requiring the world to receive the mark of the beast. The mortal wound will be completely healed. This is what she means by "final fulfillment." If Ellen White intended for us to believe the entire prophecy would be fulfilled all over again, including the time prophecies, it seems to me she would have referred to it as a "second fulfillment" and left no doubt about their happening again.

It goes back to Jesus' question "How do you read...?"

Some read it one way others read it another. So is one way right and another wrong?

Is it one way or the other or is it both ways?

"The path of the righteous is as the light of dawn, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day." Proverbs 4:18, R. V., margin.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: Ellen G. White

In the last days Satan will appear as an angel of light, with great power and heavenly glory, and claim to be the Lord of the whole earth. He will declare that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh to the first day of the week; and as lord of the first day of the week he will present this spurious sabbath as a test of loyalty to him. Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy. [Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] {19MR 282.1}

[hch]

Originally Posted By: "Revelation 13:4-18"

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.

6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.

7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If any man have an ear, let him hear.

10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Forgive me, hch, if I missed your answer above on this, but I did not see it.

You seemed to ignore my primary contention with stating that Revelation 13:4-18 will all be repeated.

Notice the highlight above. The Beast will receive a deadly wound, and the Lamb-Like Beast will come out of the earth.

If all of Revelation 13:4-18 is to be repeated again in the future, does this mean that the Lamb-Like Beast will arise out of the earth again?

[hch]

I should also not fail to mention that according to Revelation 13:4-18, the Lamb-Like Beast comes up out of the earth after the 42 months.

If the 42 months are to repeat, as well as all the other elements in Revelation 13:4-18, then wouldn't we be forced to conclude that there will be another United States of America coming up out of the earth AFTER the 42 months?

Even you know that if the 42 months were to be applied as literal and future, this would mark the end of the world. Therefore, to speak of a lamb-like beast coming up out of the earth and causing all to worship the beast after the 42 month period would seem to me quite problematic.

[hch]

You will never get it right until you discover this truth:

No prophetic time in the scope of the visions after the end of the 69th week decreed for Israel [not the church] [about 33 A.D.]

All of the visions are silent after this .... no events are recorded .... none

The balance of the unfulfilled prophetic events are still pending at this time .... not to begin until the Lord brings the 70th week decreed and beyond

Since you have lost track of prophetic time, you are unaware the the 70th week has been completed and Jesus is in His final countdown.

And with the Bible's Sanctuary teaching rightly understood, it is evident that when Jesus finishes confessing the names of the saints before His Father and the holy angels; He declares it is done!

Once that declaration is made, Jesus leaves the Temple in Heaven. The Sanctuary is cleansed and He can not and will never again enter upon that phase of His ministry to plead His blood for sinners because His atonement for sin: IT IS DONE! That is clear from the pouring out of the 7 last plagues in Revelation. When the lost are cursing and blaspheming God for the plagues.

They are not repentant that they have sinned, they are angry because they are getting their just rewards.

So if you want to put the 70th week of Daniel in the future when I know from Bible study that it is past, that is your prerogative. You are a free moral agent.

John 8:32 "And ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free."

I know the fire God has allowed me to go through to try my metal. I know the message that He has given me and how it will not be received by most SDA's and even less by those that embrace pseudo-biblical theology. By his actions Gorbachev responded far better to my letters than Elder N. Wilson did by his words. And now that we are down to the wire, Satan is making every effort to confuse people to what is truth and/or to get them to procrastinate accepting solid biblical teachings because should they delay, they most likely will put off doing what needs to be done in their lives until it is too late and then be lost.

So work the work of your master until the Lord gives out the rewards and if you should rejoice with your wages and/or your gift, praise God. But if you should find out too late that you had been turning people from truth to death, don't think for a moment that God did not try to reason with you through those that you judged to be in error.