No Prophetic Time after 1844

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

...1) The decree to rebuild Jerusalem has been repeated

(Jerusalem being teaching of peace) 31 May 1998

[what are the implications if this is true and we don't understand it?]

2) the endtime prince of the covenant (counterfeit) was anointed on the very day this prophecy indicated.

[The Bible is TRUE. Not only was Daniel written 600-years before Christ, but the God that knew about the timing of Christ's Advent also knows about endtime events that will be as they were prophesied. How will this knowledge affect the dispensationalist's misunderstanding of Scripture when truth is presented in its right setting? Will many be released from the error that is them when the truth is known?]

3) he failed as predicted

4) he confirmed the covenant with many for 1 week

5) in the midst of that week, he set up the abomination that makes desolate by casting down Christ's sacrifice and the oblation [At that time Apostate Protestantism took the driver's seat in American politics.]

6)The endtime meaning of the daily was clearly set forth as a continual [all those arguments about the daily laid to wrest. At last SDA's can have time to share the gospel with a dying planet instead of wasting time on meaningless discussions that don't go anywhere.]

7) 1290-days after the counterfeit prince was to fail, the daily was taken away

8) 45-days later it was confirmed that this application to Daniel's endtime prophecy was true! Thus the blessing is to those who have understanding.

[We are at the time of the end. It is hear, but it will be an overwhelming surprise to many including SDA's]

9) It will be 2300-days since the 1335-days ended just before Yom Kippur this year (2011)[When Jesus entered the Sanctuary in 1844, it was not cleansed. Yes the process was begun, but when He leaves it, the Sanctuary will be cleansed.]

hch, could you please take the time to devote a single post, perhaps, to discuss in detail each one of these points individually?

Instead of using "he," tell exactly who you are talking about. Please also show us how you come up with the time periods you're referring to and why you apply them as you do.

Am very interested. Thank you in advance. :-)

John 3:17 and Bob,

I hope to do just that. Unfortunately, I have been working to make ends meet and I don't have time to be online much. So it is going to be choppy for a while.

To begin b 4 I answer your direct questions.

1) God has a timeframe

2) Christ will come at an appointed time whether we are ready or not

3) Our failure to get the gospel to the world will not delay Christ's coming

[hch]

There are many references to 6,000-years in the Spirit of prophecy that say: almost, nearly, for more than, about, etc. But this quote nails it down by saying that from a view in heaven, the saints see Satan's work ended.

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe, and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. “The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet; they [the righteous] break forth into singing.” [isaiah 14:7.] And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. “The voice of a great multitude,” “as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings,” is heard, saying, “Alleluia; for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” {GC88 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the holy city. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. [Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.] While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, he is to his people both a sun and a shield. [Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.] {GC88 673.3}

The context is that there were 6,000-years for Satan to rule earth and a 1,000-years for him to be in the abyss. Thus after the sin problem is ended it is being said that Satan had 7,000-years before meeting his end.

a day with the Lord is as a 1,000-years

there were 7-days in the creation week

sin is allotted 7,000-years including the final millennium

That is God's timeframe

There have been 2000-years from Adam to Noah

there were 2000-years from Noah to Calvary

There have been 2011 from Jesus to today

Being that we do not have an exact count for each

time period referenced above, we can only conclude that

we are very near the 6,000-year mark.

But God knows the exact day and hour that is fast approaching

[John317]

1) God has a timeframe

2) Christ will come at an appointed time whether we are ready or not

3) Our failure to get the gospel to the world will not delay Christ's coming

I think you are right there. We're told that even the angels of God will help spread the gospel at the end.

I don't believe that a single person will be lost who really wants to be saved. God will give every person opportunity to be saved, even if it means giving them dreams and sending an angel in human form.

[John317]

That's true. I've thought the same before. It cannot be too far off. I wouldn't put a date to it or a number of years. Just that it is close. We know Christ could have come in the late 1800s but He also could have come, I believe, during every generation since then. Some generation soon will be the last. It could be this one. But in any case, I believe we need to live as if He will come any time.

For one thing, we have no idea when we will die. And when we die, it is as if He came that very moment, as far as we are concerned, because our probation ends and the next thing we know, we are either opening our eyes to greet Christ, or else we are going to open our eyes at the other end of the one thousand years. So we need to be prepared every moment, making sure we have oil [Holy Spirit] in our lamp.

[hch]

Christ's Advent is at an appointed time

We must cherish and cultivate the faith of which prophets and apostles have testified--the faith that lays hold on the promises of God and waits for deliverance in His appointed time and way. The sure word of prophecy will meet its final fulfillment in the glorious advent of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, as King of kings and Lord of lords. The time of waiting may seem long, the soul may be oppressed by discouraging circumstances, many in whom confidence has been placed may fall by the way; but with the prophet who endeavored to encourage Judah in a time of unparalleled apostasy, let us confidently declare, "The Lord is in His holy temple: let all the earth keep silence before Him." Habakkuk 2:20. Let us ever hold in remembrance the cheering message, "The vision is yet for an appointed time, but at the end it shall speak, and not lie: though it tarry, wait for it; because it will surely come, it will not tarry. . . . The just shall live by his faith." Verses 3, 4.

Da 11:27 And both these kings’ hearts shall be to do mischief, and they shall speak lies at one table; but it shall not prosper: for yet the end shall be at the time appointed.

Da 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

[John317]

Da 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

And Daniel 12: 10--

12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Those verses, and esp. verse 10, show that before Christ's return, there will be a time of purification, a cleansing from sin. As Ellen White says, a time for putting away of sin from us. That time is now. But Satan wants people to think there is no special preparation necessary. He wants us to believe all that's necessary is for us to have made the claim that we've accepted Christ before. What we need to realize, though, is that that was just the starting point. If we go no further after that, we will be like the man at the wedding feast whose mouth is stopped when He is asked why He doesn't have on the wedding garment.

[12tribes]

There are many references to 6,000-years in the Spirit of prophecy that say: almost, nearly, for more than, about, etc. But this quote nails it down by saying that from a view in heaven, the saints see Satan's work ended.

Originally Posted By: EGW

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe, and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. “The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet; they [the righteous] break forth into singing.” [isaiah 14:7.] And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. “The voice of a great multitude,” “as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings,” is heard, saying, “Alleluia; for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” {GC88 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the holy city. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. [Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.] While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, he is to his people both a sun and a shield. [Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.] {GC88 673.3}

The context is that there were 6,000-years for Satan to rule earth and a 1,000-years for him to be in the abyss. Thus after the sin problem is ended it is being said that Satan had 7,000-years before meeting his end.

a day with the Lord is as a 1,000-years

there were 7-days in the creation week

sin is allotted 7,000-years including the final millennium

That is God's timeframe

There have been 2000-years from Adam to Noah

there were 2000-years from Noah to Calvary

There have been 2011 from Jesus to today

Being that we do not have an exact count for each

time period referenced above, we can only conclude that

we are very near the 6,000-year mark.

But God knows the exact day and hour that is fast approaching

[skyblue888]

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe, and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. “The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet; they [the righteous] break forth into singing.” [isaiah 14:7.] And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. “The voice of a great multitude,” “as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings,” is heard, saying, “Alleluia; for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” {GC88 673.2}

Here she is describing events as having already taken place.

So we may know that it will not go over 6,000 years.

We must be sooooooo close to the end.

sky

[BobRyan]

6000 years of sin. Adam was 130 when Seth was born - for how many decades was Adam in Eden before he sinned?

[hch]

That's true. I've thought the same before. It cannot be too far off. I wouldn't put a date to it or a number of years. Just that it is close. We know Christ could have come in the late 1800s but He also could have come, I believe, during every generation since then. Some generation soon will be the last. It could be this one. But in any case, I believe we need to live as if He will come any time.

For one thing, we have no idea when we will die. And when we die, it is as if He came that very moment, as far as we are concerned, because our probation ends and the next thing we know, we are either opening our eyes to greet Christ, or else we are going to open our eyes at the other end of the one thousand years. So we need to be prepared every moment, making sure we have oil [Holy Spirit] in our lamp.

What you have said is Scriptural, but we should be cautious not to deemphasize the nearness of Christ's Advent.

No we don't know the day or the hour, but we do know that we are in the final countdown. And as we study, the Scriptures will show that we are the final generation that is to see Jesus.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

Da 11:35 And some of them of understanding shall fall, to try them, and to purge, and to make them white, even to the time of the end: because it is yet for a time appointed.

And Daniel 12: 10--

12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

Those verses, and esp. verse 10, show that before Christ's return, there will be a time of purification, a cleansing from sin. As Ellen White says, a time for putting away of sin from us. That time is now. But Satan wants people to think there is no special preparation necessary. He wants us to believe all that's necessary is for us to have made the claim that we've accepted Christ before. What we need to realize, though, is that that was just the starting point. If we go no further after that, we will be like the man at the wedding feast whose mouth is stopped when He is asked why He doesn't have on the wedding garment.

The Scriptures definitely indicate that we are in the final sealing time that is to end with Christ's Advent.

[hch]

6000 years of sin. Adam was 130 when Seth was born - for how many decades was Adam in Eden before he sinned?

Does anybody know the answer? I doubt it. Does it matter?

When I was a youth, I did a timeline starting with Adam and following the Scriptures verse by verse to our present day.

At the time of Abraham and his dad, Moses leaves the exact timeframe that he had been following.

Thus to say that there are 2000-years from Adam to Noah

and 2000-years from Noah to Calvary are estimations.

We are not off by hundreds of years,

but we do not have the exact number of years.

And that is as it should be.

But God knows the day and the hour.

But what we do know is that in 2011,

we do not have much time left for prophecy to be fulfilled.

Whatever has been prophesied to be will soon have been

since everything in God's word relating to the sin problem

will be fulfilled within the context of the time allowed

for the sin problem to have run its course.

6000-years plus the 1000 = 7000 and we are very near the 6000-yr mark. And since the Spirit of Prophecy quote cited in this thread is from the vantage point of one in Heaven after the destruction of Satan; it states clearly that his rule was for 6000-yrs. The conclusion is that if sin is allotted 6000-years, we are near the end of that timeframe.

Is that point beyond dispute?

[hch]

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe, and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. “The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet; they [the righteous] break forth into singing.” [isaiah 14:7.] And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. “The voice of a great multitude,” “as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings,” is heard, saying, “Alleluia; for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” {GC88 673.2}

Here she is describing events as having already taken place.

So we may know that it will not go over 6,000 years.

We must be sooooooo close to the end.

sky

I agree.

And furthermore, I propose that God does not leave gaps in His prophetic timeline as some people would have us to believe. He gives us what we need to know when we need to know it. And He does that by putting it in His book, the Bible, that has been written over a 3500-year span with the last book of Revelation being about 900-years old.

Point: The most current information in the Bible that we need to know today was written 900-years ago or even before that.

I accept the Spirit of Prophecy writings as those of a prophet of God. They supplement the Bible and help me to have understanding that others do not have. If anyone following this thread does not accept the SOP, that is their option, but the blessing of knowing what God has to say to this generation cannot be fully realized if we don't believe His prophet that He sent to this generation.

If there are those that want to debate the virtue of accepting the Spirit of Prophecy, feel free to start your own thread on that topic some place other than here.

[hch]

You said -

Quote:

1) The decree to rebuild Jerusalem has been repeated

(Jerusalem being teaching of peace) 31 May 1998

[what are the implications if this is true and we don't understand it?]

2) the endtime prince of the covenant (counterfeit) was anointed on the very day this prophecy indicated.

I said "I have no idea what events you are talking about"

It seems we are still stuck there.

in Christ,

Bob

[hch]

Study revelation in connection with Daniel; for history will be repeated. {1888 1491.1}

[skyblue888]

Yes, old controversies will be revived, but as to time setting after 1844, whether prohetic time or literal time, we may be certain that "there will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time. We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Spirit or for the coming of Christ... The Lord has shown me that the message must go, and that it must not be hung on time; for time will never be a test again. I saw that some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time, that the third angel's message can stand on its own foundation, and that it needs not time to strengthen it, and that it will go with mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousness... God has not revealed to us the time when this messsage will close, or when probation will have an end." 1 S.M.188.

Those who take these words seriously will refrain from making any calculation in reference to time setting ater 1844.

sky

[12tribes]

Yes, old controversies will be revived, but as to time setting after 1844, whether prohetic time or literal time, we may be certain that "there will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time. We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Spirit or for the coming of Christ... The Lord has shown me that the message must go, and that it must not be hung on time; for time will never be a test again. I saw that some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time, that the third angel's message can stand on its own foundation, and that it needs not time to strengthen it, and that it will go with mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousness... God has not revealed to us the time when this messsage will close, or when probation will have an end." 1 S.M.188.

Those who take these words seriously will refrain from making any calculation in reference to time setting ater 1844.

sky

Amen it looks clear enough

[Lysimachus]

hch does bring up a valid point though.

When she is talking against "time", could it be that she is referring specifically to the timing, or "time setting" of the Second Advent?

Or is she saying we cannot ascertain a literal duration of a time period? In other words, to understand that there will be a literal 1260 days in the future, for example, in no way is the same as telling us "when" that 1260 begins, or when it ends, nor how long after will be Christ's Second Advent.

Keep in mind that I am not dogmatic either way here. I root myself firmly in the traditional historicist views. However, I will admit that I find it kind of odd that God would have the future Time of Trouble be a random number. Could it not be that the 1260 year tribulation will be "shortened" to literal time, just before the very end?

May we keep in mind that expositors the world over did not know the beginning of the 1260 years until after it ended. Is it possible that we will not know when the Great Tribulation in the future began until after it has terminated, and just before Christ's Return in the Clouds?

From what I am seeing, ascertaining future time periods does not in any way reveal the timing of the outpouring of the Holy Spirit, or the Second Advent.

Something to ponder.

[hch]

Yes, old controversies will be revived, but as to time setting after 1844, whether prohetic time or literal time, we may be certain that "there will never again be a message for the people of God that will be based on time. We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Spirit or for the coming of Christ... The Lord has shown me that the message must go, and that it must not be hung on time; for time will never be a test again. I saw that some were getting a false excitement, arising from preaching time, that the third angel's message can stand on its own foundation, and that it needs not time to strengthen it, and that it will go with mighty power, and do its work, and will be cut short in righteousness... God has not revealed to us the time when this messsage will close, or when probation will have an end." 1 S.M.188.

Those who take these words seriously will refrain from making any calculation in reference to time setting ater 1844.

sky

But again to twist the Spirit of Prophecy to say that which it does not say is to cast your shadow over truth or to replace truth wit error.

The context of that quote is We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Spirit or for the coming of Christ. If you go back to the original 3 posts on this topic, it is evident that the world views ALL PROPHETIC TIME as the same but OUR POSITION is that prophetic time is the day and hour of Christ's Advent.

For there to never be a message based on time Ellen White is speaking specifically about a message giving the definite time either for the outpouring of the Spirit or for the coming of Christ but she is not talking about events linked to prophetic time apart from the Second Advent.

Furthermore, to take the erroneous position that you are presenting implies that understanding God's timeline is in opposition to the will of God. I am not presenting a message regarding the day and hour of Christ's Advent, I am showing from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy that it is time for the third Angel's Message to go to the world in full power because the mark of the Beast is about to be upon us.

No the final message is not dependent of TIME. Yes the final message can stand on its own with full power. But if we do not understand the times and seasons in God's word we have a greater chance to be deceived because of our ignorance to that which god intended for us to know.

We settled that matter long ago in this topic. Please review what has been posted previously and we will move on.

[hch]

Originally Posted By: hch

There are many references to 6,000-years in the Spirit of prophecy that say: almost, nearly, for more than, about, etc. But this quote nails it down by saying that from a view in heaven, the saints see Satan's work ended.

Originally Posted By: EGW

Satan's work of ruin is forever ended. For six thousand years he has wrought his will, filling the earth with woe, and causing grief throughout the universe. The whole creation has groaned and travailed together in pain. Now God's creatures are forever delivered from his presence and temptations. “The whole earth is at rest, and is quiet; they [the righteous] break forth into singing.” [isaiah 14:7.] And a shout of praise and triumph ascends from the whole loyal universe. “The voice of a great multitude,” “as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings,” is heard, saying, “Alleluia; for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth.” {GC88 673.2}

While the earth was wrapped in the fire of destruction, the righteous abode safely in the holy city. Upon those that had part in the first resurrection, the second death has no power. [Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.] While God is to the wicked a consuming fire, he is to his people both a sun and a shield. [Revelation 20:6; Psalm 84:11.] {GC88 673.3}

The context is that there were 6,000-years for Satan to rule earth and a 1,000-years for him to be in the abyss. Thus after the sin problem is ended it is being said that Satan had 7,000-years before meeting his end.

a day with the Lord is as a 1,000-years

there were 7-days in the creation week

sin is allotted 7,000-years including the final millennium

That is God's timeframe

There have been 2000-years from Adam to Noah

there were 2000-years from Noah to Calvary

There have been 2011 from Jesus to today

Being that we do not have an exact count for each

time period referenced above, we can only conclude that

we are very near the 6,000-year mark.

But God knows the exact day and hour that is fast approaching

[hch]

hch does bring up a valid point though.

When she is talking against "time", could it be that she is referring specifically to the timing, or "time setting" of the Second Advent?

[Lysimachus]

But again to twist the Spirit of Prophecy to say that which it does not say is to cast your shadow over truth or to replace truth wit error.

The context of that quote is We are not to know the definite time either for the outpouring of the Spirit or for the coming of Christ. If you go back to the original 3 posts on this topic, it is evident that the world views ALL PROPHETIC TIME as the same but OUR POSITION is that prophetic time is the day and hour of Christ's Advent.

For there to never be a message based on time Ellen White is speaking specifically about a message giving the definite time either for the outpouring of the Spirit or for the coming of Christ but she is not talking about events linked to prophetic time apart from the Second Advent.

Furthermore, to take the erroneous position that you are presenting implies that understanding God's timeline is in opposition to the will of God. I am not presenting a message regarding the day and hour of Christ's Advent, I am showing from the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy that it is time for the third Angel's Message to go to the world in full power because the mark of the Beast is about to be upon us.

No the final message is not dependent of TIME. Yes the final message can stand on its own with full power. But if we do not understand the times and seasons in God's word we have a greater chance to be deceived because of our ignorance to that which god intended for us to know.

We settled that matter long ago in this topic. Please review what has been posted previously and we will move on.

Then again, at the same time, is it possible you might be going too far with the pendulum in the other direction?

Even Gerhard Pfandl admits to your position of her "time" statement referring to the Second Advent.

He states:

• Now it is true that Ellen White here speaks about date setting for the Second Advent which the new view does not, nevertheless, there is no indication in her writings that any kind of prophetic time would play a rule in the future. (Pfandl, Time Prophecies in Daniel 12, p. 5)

But he continues:

• In fact, in a letter from 1850 Ellen White mentions a Brother Hewit from Dead River who believed that the destruction of the wicked and the sleep of the dead was an abomination and that Ellen White was Jezebel. She then writes, "We told him of some of his errors in the past, that the 1335 days were ended and numerous errors of his. It had but little effect. His darkness was felt upon the meeting and it dragged." (Idem, Manuscript Release 6:251) Some believe that in this statement she places the 1335 days in the future. However, the sentence is generally understood to mean, "We told him of some of his errors in the past, [we told him] that the 1335 days were ended and [we told him] numerous errors of his." Otherwise we must ask, why Ellen White reprimand brother Hewit and not her husband and all the other pioneers who taught that the 1335 years were ended? James White in an article in the Review and Herald in 1857 wrote, "Evidences are conclusive that the 1335 days ended with the 2300 , with the Midnight Cry in 1844. Then the angel [Rev. x, 1-6] swore that time should be no longer." (James White, "the Judgment," (Review and Herald, January 29, 1857, 100). In the same paper Uriah Smith in 1863 stated, "Now it is manifestly wrong to date the 1290 days from the setting up of the papacy, when the prophecy says they are to date from the taking away of paganism, (Uriah Smith saw the daily as a symbol for paganism rather than for the ministry of Christ) which was thirty years previous. We therefore date the 1290 days from the year 508; and as the 1335 days are spoken of in connection with these, no possible reason can be given why they do not commence at the same point. The 1290 and 1260 end together in 1798." (Uriah Smith, "Short Interviews with Correspondents,", Review and Herald, Feb. 24, 1863) The fact that Ellen White nowhere argued against these statements supports the reading of her sentence as generally understood. At the same time this indicates that she herself placed the 1335 days in the past. - (Ibid, pp. 5-6)

Yet even more to ponder! I'm still studying out this matter carefully.

[hch]

Study Revelation in connection with Daniel; for history will be repeated. {1888 1491.1}

[hch]

Then again, at the same time, is it possible you might be going too far with the pendulum in the other direction?

Even Gerhard Pfandl admits to your position of her "time" statement referring to the Second Advent.

[Lysimachus]

And she clearly states that the 43-months will have a final fulfillment before Jesus comes:

Originally Posted By: EGW

In the last days Satan will appear as an angel of light, with great power and heavenly glory, and claim to be the Lord of the whole earth. He will declare that the Sabbath has been changed from the seventh to the first day of the week; and as lord of the first day of the week he will present this spurious sabbath as a test of loyalty to him. Then will take place the final fulfillment of the Revelator's prophecy.

And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?

5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months...

[Revelation 13:4-18, quoted.] {19MR 282.1}

I guess I find difficulty that this statement is "clear-cut" that she is putting the 42 months to be repeated again in the future. It can also be interpreted to be that Ellen White is simply quoting the full context, but her expression "final fulfillment" is referring to the latter portion of it, such as verses 12-14 ("final fulfillment").

I'm not disqualifying the possibility, all I'm saying is that, for me anyway, it's not even close to being "clear-cut" in stone as you tend to make it.

But I'll keep studying it.