Harold Camping

[Textus Receptus]

Easy, just read the scriptures to answer this question.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, [it is] because [there is] no light in them.Isaiah 8:20.

Camping had no light since he didn't keep the laws of God, the most obvious being the Sabbath.

Secondly,

The rapture theory was first created by a Jesuit named Fransico Ribera as an attempt to place the antichrist as a future event as a direct rebutttle to Martin Luther.

Of course he is not like us.

[swampy]

I listened To Harold for many years as I traveled the highways late at night....It was tragic, his wild take on scripture, but God loves him as special as He loves you and me and my prayer is....he will find his way and honor God in Spirit and Truth.

[cardw]

You could almost say that Harold Camping took the pages right out of the Early Adventist/Millerite playbook.

The early Adventists were wrong about Oct 22, 1884 and deflected by saying that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place. This was something that couldn't be verified because it was claimed to occur in heaven.

Early Adventists said that it was a test to separate the true believers and continued to set dates clear up to 1851 and would only preach to Millerites, since, according to them, the rest of the churches were the synagog of Satan.

When it became clear that Jesus wasn't coming and Adventists began to have children a way had to be made to justify the existence of the Adventist Church. Again the theology changed to adapt to an obvious truth.

It's the same fear and nonsense.

[Tallmark]

The rapture theory was first created by a Jesuit named Fransico Ribera as an attempt to place the antichrist as a future event as a direct rebutttle to Martin Luther.

Thanks, I didn't know that. I'll study on it. That fable sure has a lot of people hooked.

[John317]

You could almost say that Harold Camping took the pages right out of the Early Adventist/Millerite playbook.

The only real connection is that they both preached that Christ was coming at a particular time and He failed to appear. If you compare the sermons of William Miller with those of Herold Camping, you won't see much that is similar at all. In actuality, William Miller did not preach that Christ would come on Oct. 22. He didn't accept that date until the morning of Oct. 21. He always said that Christ would come "about 1843, 1844."

His sermons were based on the prophecies, and he used good rules of interpretation. In fact, there is nothing wrong with the prophetic interpretations. The only thing wrong with his interpretation was that he mistakenly believed the sanctuary was this earth. However, the Bible doesn't teach that the sanctuary of Daniel 8: 14 is this earth.

William Miller's sermons were all about making Christ our personal Savior and Lord. Miller didn't try to manipulate people or try to frighten them.

For good reading about William Miller, see The Urgent Voice: The Story of William Miller. It was originally published by the Review and Herald. The author's name is Robert Gale. (Google title and author's name.)

[John317]

The rapture theory was first created by a Jesuit named Fransico Ribera as an attempt to place the antichrist as a future event as a direct rebutttle to Martin Luther.

That's a fact. And now popularized by novels and films, swallowed by millions of Protestants hook, line, and sinker.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You could almost say that Harold Camping took the pages right out of the Early Adventist/Millerite playbook.

The only real connection is that they both preached that Christ was coming at a particular time and He failed to appear. If you compare the sermons of William Miller with those of Herold Camping, you won't see much that is similar at all. In actuality, William Miller did not preach that Christ would come on Oct. 22. He didn't accept that date until the morning of Oct. 21. He always said that Christ would come "about 1843, 1844."

I didn't compare William Miller specifically with Harold Camping. I was comparing the group apologetics for being wrong.

Seventh Day Adventists continued to set dates until 1851 and where quite vitriolic toward other denominations calling them the synagog of Satan. You just want to white wash all of this and present this sanitized version that has no basis in fact.

William Miller never became a Seventh Day Adventist. He was wise enough to realize that when you are wrong you need to admit it. So I'm not saying that William Miller was similar to Harold Camping at all.

I would say that James and Ellen White were driving this crazy date setting and condemnation of other denominations. They just couldn't accept that they were wrong and this has plagued our denomination ever since. There is a decided lack of honesty in regard to this history because there is so much ego involved.

[John317]

...

Seventh Day Adventists continued to set dates until 1851 and where quite vitriolic toward other denominations calling them the synagog of Satan.

Richard, SDAs didn't even exist between 1844 and 1851. All there was in 1851 were a few hundred former Millerites. Some of these would eventually go on to help form the SDA church in 1861-2, but many of them joined other groups.

And Ellen White never set any dates after 1844.

She never claimed that God showed her that Jesus was coming in 1844 or at any other particular time.

[John317]

...William Miller never became a Seventh Day Adventist. He was wise enough to realize that when you are wrong you need to admit it. So I'm not saying that William Miller was similar to Harold Camping at all.

May I suggest you do some reading in Miller's own writings, perhaps a biography, and a few good histories of the SDA Church.

Miller was a very intelligent man and was highly regarded by all the people who knew him. He was elected Captain by his unit in the War of 1812 and was a Deist until about 1820. He studied the Bible all by himself, using just a Bible and a Cruden's Concordence.

Naturally he realized he was wrong after Jesus didn't come in 1844, but Miller never stopped believing in the Bible and in Christ as his Lord and Savior. He knew the prophecies were true, but he also realized that he'd made a mistake, but he never knew what that mistake was.

The main reason Miller didn't become a Seventh-day Adventist was that he died long before the Seventh-day Adventist Church came into existence.

William Miller died at the age of 67, December 20, 1849.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...

Seventh Day Adventists continued to set dates until 1851 and where quite vitriolic toward other denominations calling them the synagog of Satan.

Richard, SDAs didn't even exist between 1844 and 1851. All there was in 1851 were a few hundred former Millerites. Some of these would eventually go on to help form the SDA church in 1861-2, but many of them joined other groups.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...William Miller never became a Seventh Day Adventist. He was wise enough to realize that when you are wrong you need to admit it. So I'm not saying that William Miller was similar to Harold Camping at all.

The main reason Miller didn't become a Seventh-day Adventist was that he died long before the Seventh-day Adventist Church came into existence.

William Miller died at the age of 67, December 20, 1849.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You could almost say that Harold Camping took the pages right out of the Early Adventist/Millerite playbook.

His sermons were based on the prophecies, and he used good rules of interpretation. In fact, there is nothing wrong with the prophetic interpretations. The only thing wrong with his interpretation was that he mistakenly believed the sanctuary was this earth. However, the Bible doesn't teach that the sanctuary of Daniel 8: 14 is this earth.

[cardw]

What is interesting is that Ellen White condemned people for being right.

Quote:

After the disappointment of 1844, William Miller confessed his mistake and admitted he was wrong. However, Joseph Bates and James and Ellen White continued to believe and teach that a door of probation closed on Oct. 22, 1844. At first, the Whites taught the door was shut to all who had not joined the Millerite movement, but later they modified their view so that only those people who rejected the message of Christ’s imminent return in 1844 (referred to as the 1st angel’s message) and rejected the call to leave the churches of “Babylon” (referred to as the 2nd angel’s message) had a door of probation shut upon them.

Ellen White, writing in 1883, explains how the door of salvation was shut in 1844:

“I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels' messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them.

“Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection. It was only the class who had despised the light from heaven that the Spirit of God could not reach. And this class included, as I have stated, both those who refused to accept the message when it was presented to them, and also those who, having received it, afterward renounced their faith. These might have a form of godliness, and profess to be followers of Christ; but having no living connection with God, they would be taken captive by the delusions of Satan. These two classes are brought to view in the vision--those who declared the light which they had followed a delusion, and the wicked of the world who, having rejected the light, had been rejected of God. No reference is made to those who had not seen the light, and therefore were not guilty of its rejection.” Ellen G. White, Ms 4, 1883 in Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 63, 64.

Why was the door shut on these Christians? Was it because of some great sin they committed? Was it because of some crime against humanity? No, their “mistake” was they did not believe William Miller and leave their churches to follow him. These were Christians who testified that they loved Jesus and wanted him to return, but simply could not accept the foolhardy idea of setting a definite time for His return in 1844.

Once again, what was their crime? It was being right! They were guilty of being correct. They failed to be deluded.

Now William Miller rejected the message and he is the one that preached it, but Ellen White says he will be in the resurrection of the saved.

William Miller is quoted as stating...

Quote:

“We expected the personal coming of Christ at that time; and now to contend that we were not mistaken, is dishonest. We should never be ashamed frankly to confess our errors. I have no confidence in any of the new theories that grew out of that movement, namely, that Christ then came as the Bridegroom, that the door of mercy was closed, that there is no salvation for sinners, that the seventh trumpet then sounded, or that it was a fulfillment of prophecy in any sense.”

But Ellen White solves this by saying it was others fault for leading him away and causing him to reject the message...

Quote:

“…suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump.”

This is a mess. It seems to me that Ellen White is simply making this stuff up to cover obvious falsehoods.

[Dr. Rich]

UBETCHA!

[John317]

...We also have the personal testimony of Lucinda Burdick, a close friend of Ellen White, that they had set at least a couple of dates after 1844:

Lucinda Burdick, a friend of Mrs. White in the 1840's, explains how Mrs. White often predicted Christ's return: I became acquainted with James White and Ellen Harmon (now Mrs. White) early in 1845. ... She pretended God showed her things which did not come to pass. At one time she saw that the Lord would come the second time in June 1845. The prophecy was discussed in all the churches, and in a little "shut-door paper" published in Portland, Me. During the summer, after June passed, I heard a friend ask her how she accounted for the vision? She replied that "they told her in the language of Canaan, and she did not understand the language; that it was the next September that the Lord was coming, and the second growth of grass instead of the first in June." September passed, and many more have passed since, and we have not seen the Lord yet. It soon became evident to all candid persons, that many things must have been "told her in the language of Canaan," or some other which she did not understand, as there were repeated failures.

There's no evidence that Lucinda Burdick was telling the truth here. Let me know if you are able to find any evidence that verifies what Mrs. Burdick claims in the above. All the evidence I've seen contradicts what Mrs. Burdick said.

Here is Ellen White statements about this allegation:

Quote:

I hereby testify in the fear of God that the charges of Miles Grant, of Mrs. Burdick, and others published in the Crisis are not true. The statements in reference to my course in forty-four are false. {1SM 74.1}

With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in forty-four I did believe no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point. {1SM 74.2}

It was on my first journey east to relate my visions that the precious light in regard to the heavenly sanctuary was opened before me and I was shown the open and shut door. We believed that the Lord was soon to come in the clouds of heaven. I was shown that there was a great work to be done in the world for those who had not had the light and rejected it. Our brethren could not understand this with our faith in the immediate appearing of Christ. Some accused me of saying that my Lord delayeth His coming, especially the fanatical ones. I saw that in '44 God had opened a door and no man could shut it, and shut a door and no man could open it. Those who rejected the light which was brought to the world by the message of the second angel went into darkness, and how great was that darkness. {1SM 74.3}

I never have stated or written that the world was doomed or damned. I never have under any circumstances used this language to any one, however sinful. I have ever had messages of reproof for those who used these harsh expressions.--Letter 2, 1874.

Now the very ones who were deepest in fanaticism cruelly charge upon me that delusion which I had not the slightest sympathy with, but from which my soul recoiled. And I bore a straightforward testimony to condemn these fanatical movements from first to last. Mrs. Burdick has made statements which are glaring falsehoods. There is not a shade of truth in her statements. Can it be that she has repeated these false statements till she sincerely believes them to be truth? {8MR 238.2}

[cardw]

There's no evidence that Lucinda Burdick was telling the truth here. Let me know if you are able to find any evidence that verifies what Mrs. Burdick claims in the above. All the evidence I've seen contradicts what Mrs. Burdick said.

Here is Ellen White statements about this allegation:

Quote:

I hereby testify in the fear of God that the charges of Miles Grant, of Mrs. Burdick, and others published in the Crisis are not true. The statements in reference to my course in forty-four are false. {1SM 74.1}

With my brethren and sisters, after the time passed in forty-four I did believe no more sinners would be converted. But I never had a vision that no more sinners would be converted. And am clear and free to state no one has ever heard me say or has read from my pen statements which will justify them in the charges they have made against me upon this point. {1SM 74.2}

It was on my first journey east to relate my visions that the precious light in regard to the heavenly sanctuary was opened before me and I was shown the open and shut door. We believed that the Lord was soon to come in the clouds of heaven. I was shown that there was a great work to be done in the world for those who had not had the light and rejected it. Our brethren could not understand this with our faith in the immediate appearing of Christ. Some accused me of saying that my Lord delayeth His coming, especially the fanatical ones. I saw that in '44 God had opened a door and no man could shut it, and shut a door and no man could open it. Those who rejected the light which was brought to the world by the message of the second angel went into darkness, and how great was that darkness. {1SM 74.3}

I never have stated or written that the world was doomed or damned. I never have under any circumstances used this language to any one, however sinful. I have ever had messages of reproof for those who used these harsh expressions.--Letter 2, 1874.

Now the very ones who were deepest in fanaticism cruelly charge upon me that delusion which I had not the slightest sympathy with, but from which my soul recoiled. And I bore a straightforward testimony to condemn these fanatical movements from first to last. Mrs. Burdick has made statements which are glaring falsehoods. There is not a shade of truth in her statements. Can it be that she has repeated these false statements till she sincerely believes them to be truth? {8MR 238.2}

This is only one piece of evidence that I presented. Of course Ellen White is going to deny this. What evidence do we have that Ellen White is telling the truth?

She deflects the essential claim that they were still setting dates and only addresses the issue of the harshness of the language. She does admit that they were preaching that the door was closed for those who rejected the 1844 message. The only problem was that William Miller himself rejected the message.

If you address her statements about William Miller you can clearly see that she if making stuff up as she goes along. William Miller completely rejected that there was any prophetic message at all in the 1844 failure of Jesus to come. She gives him an exception because she says it was others fault for leading him away from the crazy theories they were still preaching. All others she condemned as lost. There is no evidence at all that everyone who rejected the message was evil and were rejecting the leading of the Holy Spirit in contradiction to what the Bible taught about the second coming. The Bible clearly states that no man knows the time of the 2nd coming. William Miller, to his credit, freely admitted that he was wrong, unlike Ellen White. She had to be backed into a corner and even then she deflects.

I repeat that they condemned people for being right. You completely ignored this fact. You are doing the same thing as Ellen White by deflecting to the weakest evidence and ignore the strongest. This is triumphal nonsense and sanitizing the history.

[John317]

...Of course Ellen White is going to deny this. What evidence do we have that Ellen White is telling the truth?

The evidence that she was telling the truth is a whole lifetime from 1844 to 1915, during which everything she wrote and did was recorded and can be documented from many sources.

Even her worst enemies conceded that Ellen White was a good, loving Christian woman who lived for others.

Have you read documented biographies of her? Have you read Life Sketches? Did you ever talk to people who knew her or lived with her?

Quote:

She deflects the essential claim that they were still setting dates and only addresses the issue of the harshness of the language. She does admit that they were preaching that the door was closed for those who rejected the 1844 message. The only problem was that William Miller himself rejected the message.

There is no valid evidence that Ellen White set dates after Oct. 22, 1844.

It is well known that Ellen White and other early Adventists believed for a while that the door of mercy was closed for sinners. But it's important to understand that she never said she had a vision from God showing that the door of mercy was closed to the world. In fact, it was her visions that changed her thinking on this topic and opened to her mind the need to broaden the Adventists' understanding of God's plan.

It is also a well-established fact that Ellen White always believed that the door of mercy was closed for those who rejected the 1844 message. By this she meant it was closed to those who rejected the view that the movement was of the Holy Spirit. She did not mean that it was closed to those who believed Christ didn't come on Oct. 22, 1844. That much was obvious. She was talking about people who turned against their former faith and declared that God had not been leading in the 1844 Movement. By doing this they rejected the Holy Spirit's leading, which is always a dangerous thing to do. The unpardonable sin is the continual rejection of the Holy Spirit so that God cannot get through to a person's heart and mind.

William Miller never turned against the dating of the prophecies. He simply knew that God had not come when he expected him to come. He didn't know how to account for it. But Miller never rejected the Bible as God's word, and Miller continued to look forward to Christ's second coming.

It is not true that William Miller rejected the 1844 Movement as a movement led by God.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...Of course Ellen White is going to deny this. What evidence do we have that Ellen White is telling the truth?

The evidence that she was telling the truth is a whole lifetime from 1844 to 1915, during which everything she wrote and did was recorded and can be documented from many sources.

Even her worst enemies conceded that Ellen White was a good, loving Christian woman who lived for others.

Have you read documented biographies of her? Have you read Life Sketches? Did you ever talk to people who knew her or lived with her?

[John317]

....I will repost this quote from William Miller where he unequivocally states that there was no prophetic event at all that happened in 1844. This is a rejection of the message. He also rejected any explanations.

Quote:

“We expected the personal coming of Christ at that time; and now to contend that we were not mistaken, is dishonest. We should never be ashamed frankly to confess our errors. I have no confidence in any of the new theories that grew out of that movement, namely, that Christ then came as the Bridegroom, that the door of mercy was closed, that there is no salvation for sinners, that the seventh trumpet then sounded, or that it was a fulfillment of prophecy in any sense.”

Plus if William Miller didn't reject it, why did Ellen White have to give an explanation?

Of course William Miller rejected exactly what he says he rejected. But notice that he did not reject the fact that the Holy Spirit was leading him in his preaching. He never denied that, and that's what's important.

We would expect him to accept his error in teaching that Christ was returning in 1844. That is obvious. He rejected the explanations of the Great Disappointment. But the point I am making is that William Miller never gave up his conviction that God had been in the proclamation of that message. He believed it was God who impressed him with the responsibility of preaching as he did, and he never ceased to believe that. But it's true that he didn't understand why Christ didn't come at that time. He didn't have an explanation. He didn't live too much longer after that.

But just because Miller stated that he had no confidence in the idea that 1844 was a fulfillment of prophecy, doesn't mean there was no fulfillment of prophecy. That can only be determined by people studying their Bibles and studying the writings of Ellen White. Miller alone can't make that judgment. Remember that the 1844 Message was not Miller's alone. There were tens of thousands of people preaching the same message, and many of them in different parts of the world did not even know about the others.

[John317]

I don't want to get into all the strong evidence that she was making things up here since it is well documented for you to read at a number of anti Ellen White sites.

Do you put your confidence in those anti-EGW and anti-SDA sites?

I'd be interested to know what is the strongest piece of evidence you know of that Ellen White was making things up. What is the one thing that you believe proves it to you beyond a shadow of a doubt?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I don't want to get into all the strong evidence that she was making things up here since it is well documented for you to read at a number of anti Ellen White sites.

Do you put your confidence in those anti-EGW and anti-SDA sites?

I'd be interested to know what is the strongest piece of evidence you know of that Ellen White was making things up. What is the one thing that you believe proves it to you beyond a shadow of a doubt?

Well, what piece of evidence proves she was a prophet beyond a shadow of a doubt.

I don't put confidence in a site. I have confidence in the evidence. I have posted a number of explanations already. You can search these posts. I don't want to repeat them here since they are off topic.

[cardw]

Of course William Miller rejected exactly what he says he rejected. But notice that he did not reject the fact that the Holy Spirit was leading him in his preaching. He never denied that, and that's what's important.

I would think that his rejection of the prophetic import of this teaching and since I would assume he would believe that the Holy Spirit would not teach error this would imply that the Holy Spirit had nothing to do with setting of this date. And Ellen White accepts that he rejected the message otherwise she wouldn't have to produce an apologetic.

I think you need to produce some evidence that William Miller specifically didn't reject the Holy Spirits leading.

[Overaged]

You could almost say that Harold Camping took the pages right out of the Early Adventist/Millerite playbook.

The early Adventists were wrong about Oct 22, 1884 and deflected by saying that Jesus entered the Most Holy Place. This was something that couldn't be verified because it was claimed to occur in heaven.

It's the same fear and nonsense.

They were not Adventists during that time. Try again.

[Bravus]

Not Seventh-day Adventists, sure, or perhaps even capital-A Adventists, but certainly adventists...

[John317]

I don't want to get into all the strong evidence that she was making things up here since it is well documented for you to read at a number of anti Ellen White sites.

Originally Posted By: John3:17

I'd be interested to know what is the strongest piece of evidence you know of that Ellen White was making things up.

Originally Posted By: cardw

Well, what piece of evidence proves she was a prophet beyond a shadow of a doubt.

You said you have strong evidence that she was making things up. What's the "strong evidence"?