Harold Camping

[Overaged]

You just want to white wash all of this and present this sanitized version that has no basis in fact.

You are black-washing it. Kind of like doing the laundry in dirt.

[John317]

I think you need to produce some evidence that William Miller specifically didn't reject the Holy Spirits leading.

There are plenty of books written on the subject, but you don't appear to have read any of them. If you are really interested, read them. There's a new book out about him by George Knight that answers your questions.

[LifeHiscost]

The surest evidence I have that God is true to His Word, is the benefits I receive when following His instructions.

"Indeed, the Sovereign Lord never does anything until he reveals his plans to his servants the prophets."

Amos 3:7 NLT

When a person belongs to a certain kingdom, the best way found to avoid responsibility to another is to attack its' veracity.

"....of the fruit of the tree which is in the midst of the garden, God has said, ‘You shall not eat it, nor shall you touch it, lest you die.’”"Genesis 3:3 NKJV

"Then the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. For God knows that in the day you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God"Genesis 3:4,5

NKJV

God blesses!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I think you need to produce some evidence that William Miller specifically didn't reject the Holy Spirits leading.

There are plenty of books written on the subject, but you don't appear to have read any of them. If you are really interested, read them. There's a new book out about him by George Knight that answers your questions.

This is a cop out. I actually produced quotes from William Miller himself. If these books have evidence why don't you quote some actual quotes from William Miller to the contrary?

It appears that William MIller did not believe the Holy Spirit had anything to do with the movement. In fact he was critical of those who simply wouldn't let it go.

You keep asking me for evidence and I give it to you.

Where's yours?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Well, what piece of evidence proves she was a prophet beyond a shadow of a doubt.

You said you have strong evidence that she was making things up. What's the "strong evidence"?

I have been giving it to you. Look at her lame apologetic for William Miller. She has to defend him since he started the whole thing, but she has a problem.

William Miller himself rejected the message and she condemns those who rejected the message. This is strong evidence that she is making it up as she goes.

The only come back you have is that she was a nice lady. That's pretty lame.

[Overaged]

This is a cop out. I actually produced quotes from William Miller himself.

Yes, you do produce a few quotes from time to time, but that does not make them "evidence" just because you posted them as a response.

[John317]

I have been giving it to you. Look at her lame apologetic for William Miller. She has to defend him since he started the whole thing, but she has a problem.

William Miller himself rejected the message and she condemns those who rejected the message. This is strong evidence that she is making it up as she goes.

The only come back you have is that she was a nice lady. That's pretty lame.

Is this all you have? You gotta be kidding.

You're talking about a woman who wrote more books-- and by hand-- than any other woman in history. A woman whose whole life was an open book. Everything she wrote has been kept and is available for inspection. You can literally find out what she was doing and where she was and what she ate on a particular day, and yet you think that what you've written here is strong evidence that she was making things up.

Just because Miller rejected something doesn't mean he was right. He was wrong about a lot of things in his life, just like any other man.

You obviously haven't studied these things very well or very closely. You're the one who is making things up as he goes.

Everything we're talking about in terms of William Miller and Ellen White is fully documented with many witnesses.

[Overaged]

This is only one piece of evidence that I presented. Of course Ellen White is going to deny this. What evidence do we have that Ellen White is telling the truth?

She deflects the essential claim that they were still setting dates and only addresses the issue of the harshness of the language.

She also addressed the contents of the message, not just the "harshness of the language" as you have stated.

Certainly, what you have posted is nowhere near to being "evidence" that she is "making stuff up."

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The only come back you have is that she was a nice lady. That's pretty lame.

Is this all you have? You gotta be kidding.

You're talking about a woman who wrote more books-- and by hand-- than any other woman in history. A woman whose whole life was an open book. Everything she wrote has been kept and is available for inspection. You can literally find out what she was doing and where she was and what she ate on a particular day, and yet you think that what you've written here is strong evidence that she was making things up.

Just because Miller rejected something doesn't mean he was right. He was wrong about a lot of things in his life, just like any other man.

You obviously haven't studied these things very well or very closely. You're the one who is making things up as he goes.

Everything we're talking about in terms of William Miller and Ellen White is fully documented with many witnesses.

What do you do with the problem of William Miller completely rejecting the message and Ellen White making an exception for him?

You haven't addressed this at all and this is my evidence. You simply dismiss it. That is not honest dialog. This is exactly what Ellen White did when she got in trouble. She deflected and appealed to her authority. That is classic con artist technique.

You are making a lot of claims but, so far, no evidence. You just have a lot of triumphal nonsense. This is the same con being done. You deflect and appeal to authority.

Even when I present evidence that directly refutes your claims you simply ignore it.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This is a cop out. I actually produced quotes from William Miller himself.

Yes, you do produce a few quotes from time to time, but that does not make them "evidence" just because you posted them as a response.

And yet you post no evidence at all. And you don't even address the quotes.

Deflection. That's all you have. Classic con artist stuff.

[John317]

The only come back you have is that she was a nice lady. That's pretty lame.

You didn't read what I wrote evidently. I never said Ellen White was a "nice lady."

[John317]

...

Deflection. That's all you have. Classic con artist stuff.

This seems to be about the only kind of thing that you know how to say to people.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...

Deflection. That's all you have. Classic con artist stuff.

This seems to be about the only kind of thing that you know how to say to people.

No, I gave you evidence and you ignored it.

This is simply another deflection and a lie.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The only come back you have is that she was a nice lady. That's pretty lame.

You didn't read what I wrote evidently. I never said Ellen White was a "nice lady."

[cardw]

Here is the point you continue to ignore over and over.

What do you do with the problem of William Miller completely rejecting the message and Ellen White making an exception for him?

As long as you continue to ignore this problem you are deflecting.

[John317]

You didn't read what I wrote evidently. I never said Ellen White was a "nice lady."

Originally Posted By: cardw

Another lie.

Here is what you posted.

Quote:

Even her worst enemies conceded that Ellen White was a good, loving Christian woman who lived for others.

If that isn't saying she was a nice lady, I don't know what is.

Do you believe that I meant she was a "nice lady" when I said her worst enemies conceded that Ellen White was a good, loving Christian woman who lived for others?

Perhaps that is what those words mean to you, but you are wrong.

What those words mean is that even Ellen White's worst enemies conceded that she was an honest person-- a woman of exceptional integrity-- who followed Christ in His unselfishness. She loved others more than she loved herself and she demonstrated this over a very long lifetime. This contrdicts what you claimed about her, that she was making up lies.

I'll do you the favor of ignoring your comment about "another lie" and count it up to apparent ignorance and an unaccountable inability to comprehend perfectly good English.

[John317]

Here is the point you continue to ignore over and over.

What do you do with the problem of William Miller completely rejecting the message and Ellen White making an exception for him?

As long as you continue to ignore this problem you are deflecting.

You haven't yet grasped the essential fact that William Miller never denied that God was in the 1844 Movement. His rejection of the idea that it was a fulfillment of prophecy is not the same as a rejection that God had led Miller in the preaching of the prophecies. He never rejected his conviction that God had guided him in preaching the message. Miller simply did not have an answer as to why Christ did not come in 1844. But one thing he didn't do was lose his confidence in God and in the Bible as God's Word. He did not throw away his beliefs in the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation.

You need to read more in history regarding the Millerite Movement. Have you read F.D. Nichols' The Midnight Cry? It's a classic about the 1844 Movement and extremely well documented.

[John317]

If that isn't saying she was a nice lady, I don't know what is.

True, you evidently don't know what is. You said it-- I didn't.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: cardw

The only come back you have is that she was a nice lady. That's pretty lame.

You didn't read what I wrote evidently. I never said Ellen White was a "nice lady."

Just an observation of this rather silly back and forth over semantics ... It sure sounds like you are trying to say that Ellen White was not a "nice lady".

From someone that doesn't have a dog in this fight, I think any reasonable person reading that "her worst enemies conceded that Ellen White was a good, loving Christian woman who lived for others" would understand that as describing characteristics of a "nice lady".

Those words would also very clearly describe my late mother-in-law who was also a very nice lady, which is something even those who didn't like her would have said.

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This is a cop out. I actually produced quotes from William Miller himself. /quote]Yes, you do produce a few quotes from time to time, but that does not make them "evidence" just because you posted them as a response.

And yet you post no evidence at all. And you don't even address the quotes.

NO EVIDENCE NEEDED

[Overaged]

[Overaged]

Here is the point you continue to ignore over and over.

What do you do with the problem of William Miller completely rejecting the message and Ellen White making an exception for him?

As long as you continue to ignore this problem you are deflecting.

[Overaged]

: Conversion

In March, 1840, William Miller visited Portland, Maine, and gave a course of lectures on the second coming of Christ. These lectures produced a great sensation, and the Christian church on Casco Street, where the discourses were given, was crowded day and night. No wild excitement attended the meetings, but a deep solemnity pervaded the minds of those who heard. Not only was a great interest manifested in the city, but the country people flocked in day after day, bringing their lunch baskets, and remaining from morning until the close of the evening meeting. {CET 16.1}

In company with my friends, I attended these meetings. Mr. Miller traced down the prophecies with an exactness that struck conviction to the hearts of his hearers. He dwelt upon the prophetic periods, and brought many proofs to strengthen his position. Then his solemn and powerful appeals and admonitions to those who were unprepared, held the crowds as if spellbound. {CET 16.2}

[Overaged]

Quote:

The record of the experience through which the people of God passed in the early history of our work must be republished. Many of those who have since come into the truth are ignorant of the way in which the Lord wrought. The experience of William Miller and his associates, of Captain Joseph Bates, and of other pioneers in the advent message, should be kept before our people. Elder Loughborough's book should receive attention. Our leading men should see what can be done for the circulation of this book. {CW 145.2}

We must study to find out the best way in which to take up the review of our experiences from the beginning of our work, when we separated from the churches, and went forward step by step in the light that God gave us. We then took the position that the Bible, and the Bible only, was to be our guide; and we are never to depart from this position. We were given wonderful manifestations of the power of God. Miracles were wrought. Again and again, when we were brought into strait places, the power of God was displayed in our behalf.--Letter 105, 1903. {CW 145.3}

[Overaged]

Quote:

Preachers and people have looked upon the book of Revelation as mysterious and of less importance than other portions of the Sacred Scriptures. But I saw that this book is indeed a revelation given for the especial benefit of those who should live in the last days, to guide them in ascertaining their true position and their duty. God directed the mind of William Miller to the prophecies and gave him great light upon the book of Revelation. {EW 231.1}

If Daniel's visions had been understood, the people could better have understood the visions of John. But at the right time, God moved upon His chosen servant, who, with clearness and in the power of the Holy Spirit, opened the prophecies and showed the harmony of the visions of Daniel and John and other portions of the Bible, and pressed home upon the hearts of the people the sacred, fearful warnings of the Word to prepare for the coming of the Son of man. Deep and solemn conviction rested upon the minds of those who heard him, and ministers and people, sinners and infidels, turned to the Lord and sought a preparation to stand in the judgment.

232

{EW 231.2}

Angels of God accompanied William Miller in his mission. He was firm and undaunted, fearlessly proclaiming the message committed to his trust. A world lying in wickedness and a cold, worldly church were enough to call into action all his energies and lead him willingly to endure toil, privation, and suffering. Although opposed by professed Christians and the world, and buffeted by Satan and his angels, he ceased not to preach the everlasting gospel to crowds wherever he was invited, sounding far and near the cry, "Fear God, and give glory to Him; for the hour of His judgment is come." {EW 232.1}