Harold Camping

[LifeHiscost]

So are you saying that John doesn't keep the commandments?

Are you reading that's what I am saying? You obviously read what you wish to hear.

God blesses!

[John317]

Here's what William Miller wrote in Apology and Defense, 1845:

Quote:

My mistakes and errors God, I trust, will forgive. I cannot, however, reproach myself for having preached definite time; for as I believe that whatsoever was written aforetime was written for our learning, the prophetic periods are as much a subject of investigation, as any other portion of the word.

I therefore still feel that it was my duty to present all the evidence that was apparent to my mind; and were I now in the same circumstances, I should be compelled to act as I have done. I should not however have so done, had I seen that the time would pass by; but not knowing that it would, I feel even now more satisfaction in having warned my fellow men, than I should feel, were I conscious that I had believed them in danger, and had not raised my voice. How keen would have been my regret, had I refrained to present what in my soul I believed to be truth, and the result had proved that souls must perish through my neglect! I cannot therefore censure myself for having conscientiously performed what I believed to be my duty.

But while I frankly acknowledge my disappointment in the exact time, I wish to enquire whether my teachings have been thereby materially affected. My view of exact time depended entirely upon the accuracy of chronology: of this I had no absolute demonstration; but as no evidence was presented to invalidate it, I deemed it my duty to rely on it as certain, until it should be disproved. Besides, I not only rested on received chronology, but I selected the earliest dates in the circle of a few years on which chronologers have relied for the date of the events from which to reckon, because I believed them to be best sustained, and because I wished to have my eye on the earliest time at which the Lord might be expected. Other chronologers had assigned later dates for the events from which I reckoned; and if they are correct, we are only brought into a circle of a few years, during which we may rationally look for the Lord's appearing. As the prophetic periods, counting from the dates from which I have reckoned, have not brought us to the end; and as I cannot tell the exact time that chronology may vary from my calculations, I can only live in continual expectation of the event. I am persuaded that I cannot be far out of the way, and I believe that God will still justify my preaching to the world.

With respect to other features of my views, I can see no reason to change my belief. We are living under the last form of the divided fourth kingdom, which brings us to the end. The prophecies which were to be fulfilled previous to the end, have been so far fulfilled that I find nothing in them to delay the Lord's coming. The signs of the times thicken on every hand; and the prophetic periods I think must certainly have brought us into the neighborhood of the event.

There is not a point in my belief in which I am not sustained by some one of the numerous writers who have opposed my views. Prof. Bush, the most gentlemanly of my opponents, admits that I am correct in the time, with the exception of the precise day or year; and this is all for which I contend. That the 70 weeks are 490 years, and the 1260 and 2300 days are so many years are admitted by Messrs Bush, Hinton and Jarvis. That the 2300 days and 70 weeks commence at the same time Prof. Bush does not deny. And Dr. Jarvis admits that the former carry us to the resurrection and judgment. Prof. Bush, Dr. Jarvis, Mr. Hinton, and Mr. Morris admit that the legs of iron and fourth beast are Rome, and that the little horn of Daniel 7th is papacy. While Dr. Jarvis and Mr. Hinton admit that the exceeding great horn of Dan. 8th, is Rome. The literal resurrection of the body the end of the world and a personal coming of Christ have not been questioned by several who have written against me.

Thus there is not a point for which I have contended, that has not been admitted by some of those who have written to disprove my opinions. I have candidly weighed the objections advanced against these views, but I have seen no arguments that were sustained by the scriptures, that in my opinion, invalidated my position. I cannot therefore conscientiously refrain from looking for my Lord; or from exhorting my fellow men as I have opportunity, to be in readiness for that great event. For my indiscretions and errors, I ask pardon; and all who have spoken evil of me without cause, I freely forgive. My labors are principally ended. I shall leave to my younger brethren the task of contending for the truth. Many years I toiled alone; God has now raised up those who will fill my place. I shall not cease to pray for the spread of truth.

In conclusion, suffer a word of exhortation. You, my brethren, who are called by the name of Christ, will you not examine the Scriptures respecting the nearness of the advent? The great and good of all ages have had their minds directed to about this period of time; and a multitude are impressed with the solemn conviction that these are emphatically the last days. Is not a question of such moment worthy of your consideration? I do not ask you to embrace an opinion of mine; but I ask you to weigh well the evidence contained in the Bible. If I am in any error, I desire to see it; and I should certainly renounce it; but do look at the question, and in view of the teachings of the inspired word, decide for eternity.

What shall I say to my unconverted friends? I have faithfully exhorted you these many years to believe in Christ; you have excused yourselves. What can I say more? Will not all the considerations that are presented in the Scriptures of truth move your hearts to lay down the weapons of your rebellion? You have no lease of your lives, and if the Lord should not come, your eyes may be soon closed in death. - Why will you not improve the present moment, and flee from the wrath to come? Go to Christ, I beseech you; lay hold on the promise of God, trust in his grace, and he will cleanse you by his blood.

I would exhort my advent brethren to study the Word diligently. Let no man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit. Avoid everything that shall cause offences. Let your lives be models of goodness and propriety. Let the adversary get no advantage over you. We have been disappointed; but disappointments will work for our good, if we make the right use of them. Be faithful. Be vigilant. Exhort with all long-suffering and patience. - Let your conversation be in heaven, from whence you look for the blessed hope. Avoid unnecessary controversy, and questions that gender strifes. Be not many masters; all are not competent to advise and direct. God will raise up those to whom he will commit the direction of his cause. Be humble. Be watchful; be patient, be persevering. And may the God of peace sanctify you wholly, and preserve you blameless unto the glorious appearing of the great God and our Savior Jesus Christ.

Wm. Miller.

Low Hampton, N. Y., August 1, 1845.

The above shows that although Miller did not know how to explain why Christ did not come, he hadn't concluded that he was wrong to preach as he did. In fact, Miller wrote that if he had it to do over again, he would preach the same as he did before. He said that he believed "God will still justify his preaching as he did."

Ellen White's statements were about people who turned against their former faith in God's leading in the 1844 Movement. Miller never made any such statements. As the above shows, Miller continued to believe that what he had preached was the right thing for him to do.

[John317]

...

In fact he outlines his disagreement with a number of early Adventist doctrines including the state of the dead and I quote...

Quote:

The doctrine of annihilation and the soul's unconsciousness in death, has been connected in the minds of some with the doctrine of the Advent. With this there is no necessary connection. This its advocates acknowledge. The doctrine of the Advent was the faith of the primitive church; while the doctrine of annihilation was no part of their faith. It evidently arises from a mistaken use of Bible terms, and a stress on words not warranted by parallel Scriptures. The fact that no trace of this doctrine is found among the ancient Jews, except the Saducees, who were reproved for not believing in angels, spirits, and the resurrection, shows that none of the pious of that nation attached a meaning to the words of the Old Testament that would sustain such a doctrine.

He also rejects those who identify the churches who rejected the Advent message as Babylon as bigots...

Quote:

I have been pained to see a spirit of sectarianism and bigotry, in some sections, which disfellowships everything that does not square with the narrow prejudices of individual minds. There is a tendency to exalt individual opinions as a standard for all to submit to; a disposition to piece the results of individual investigation upon a level with solemn conclusions to which the great body of brethren have arrived. This is very wrong; for, while we are in this world, we are so short-sighted that we should never regard our conclusions as infallible, should bear with the imperfections of others, and receive those that are weak in the faith, but not to doubtful disputations......

.......The calling of all churches, that do not embrace the doctrine of the advent, Babylon, I before remarked, was the means of our not being listened to with candor; and also, that I regarded it as a perversion of Scripture. This I think all will see who compare Rev.xiv, and xviii., and observe the chronology of the fall of Babylon.

No one claims that Miller was correct in everything he believed. He was clearly wrong in many things. So was Martin Luther and John Calvin and all the other great leaders in the history of the Christain church.

All of these people preached the truths that God designed for them to teach, and that was enough. It wasn't time for Luther to preach the Sabbath.

Those men were just coming out of the false teachings of Babylon. So we shouldn't be suprised that they didn't see everything clearly.

God raised up Martin Luther to teach the Bible as the standard of doctrine and faith and to point people to Christ.

And God raised up Miller to point people to the coming of judgment in 1844. In this, Miller did the work that God intended for him to do. He wasn't raised up to proclaim the Sabbath and the truth about the state of the dead or of the Investigative Judgment. That would be the work of Seventh-day Adventists-- God's Remnant people who keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus, the Spirit of prophecy.

[Truth Files]

Response to the OP;

Miller's behavior was very similar to Harold Camping who is also a false prophet by his date setting and resultant failures

When the false prophet's predictions fail to come to pass, re-invention is the response in order to retain the membership of the following

Camping has done the very same thing after his failed May 21, 2011 dating for the second coming .... now he is predicting another

The Lord's prophets of the Bible are the only true prophets and there are no others .... always 100% accurate in fulfillment of the past and this will be the case for the balance still yet to come

The Lord's prophetic word conveyed through His prophets of the Bible is complete .... all attempts to add to this by false prophets and false teachers will fail and those who behave in this manner will pay the price[ Revelation 22:18-19]

[John317]

Response to the OP;

Miller's behavior was very similar to Harold Camping who is also a false prophet by his date setting and resultant failures

What behavior of Miller are you referring to?

Did you read Miller's Apology and Defense?

Miller was not a prophet. He never claimed to have been a prophet or to have been inspired. He was simply a preacher doing what he honestly and sincerely believed was right.

Was he wrong about the Lord's return to the earth? Yes, of course. But does that mean he was a false prophet?

If you want to say he was a minister who taught falsely that Christ was coming to cleanse the earth in 1843, 1844, that would be a true. But it is not true to say Miller was a false prophet since he wasn't a prophet in any sense of the term.

[Truth Files]

Miller was a false prophet ... no doubt

Any who claim to be "christian" and proceed to set dates for the Lord's second coming .... or any other future events are all false prophets

..... and all of the do the same thing .... when their predictions fail they fabricate various ways to re-invent their stories

[John317]

Did you read Miller's Apology and Defense?

Miller didn't fabricate anything at all in order to re-invent what he taught.

[John317]

For entire Apology and Defense by William Miller, see

http://www.corvalliscommunitypages.com/Americas/US/USNotOregon/adventistsleft.htm

Quote:

.... That I have been mistaken in the time, I freely confess; and I have no desire to defend my course any further than I have been actuated by pure motives, and it has resulted to God's glory. My mistakes and errors God, I trust, will forgive. I cannot, however, reproach myself for having preached definite time; for as I believe that whatsoever was written aforetime was written for our learning, the prophetic periods are as much a subject of investigation, as any other portion of the word.

I therefore still feel that it was my duty to present all the evidence that was apparent to my mind; and were I now in the same circumstances, I should be compelled to act as I have done. I should not however have so done, had I seen that the time would pass by; but not knowing that it would, I feel even now more satisfaction in having warned my fellow men, than I should feel, were I conscious that I had believed them in danger, and had not raised my voice. How keen would have been my regret, had I refrained to present what in my soul I believed to be truth, and the result had proved that souls must perish through my neglect! I cannot therefore censure myself for having conscientiously performed what I believed to be my duty.... As the prophetic periods, counting from the dates from which I have reckoned, have not brought us to the end; and as I cannot tell the exact time that chronology may vary from my calculations, I can only live in continual expectation of the event. I am persuaded that I cannot be far out of the way, and I believe that God will still justify my preaching to the world.

With respect to other features of my views, I can see no reason to change my belief. We are living under the last form of the divided fourth kingdom, which brings us to the end. The prophecies which were to be fulfilled previous to the end, have been so far fulfilled that I find nothing in them to delay the Lord's coming. The signs of the times thicken on every hand; and the prophetic periods I think must certainly have brought us into the neighborhood of the event.

...Thus there is not a point for which I have contended, that has not been admitted by some of those who have written to disprove my opinions. I have candidly weighed the objections advanced against these views, but I have seen no arguments that were sustained by the scriptures, that in my opinion, invalidated my position. I cannot therefore conscientiously refrain from looking for my Lord; or from exhorting my fellow men as I have opportunity, to be in readiness for that great event...

Wm. Miller.

Low Hampton, N. Y., August 1, 1845.

[John317]

cardw,

William Miller wrote, in August 1845,

Quote:

I am persuaded that I cannot be far out of the way, and I believe that God will still justify my preaching to the world.

With respect to other features of my views, I can see no reason to change my belief. We are living under the last form of the divided fourth kingdom, which brings us to the end. The prophecies which were to be fulfilled previous to the end, have been so far fulfilled that I find nothing in them to delay the Lord's coming. The signs of the times thicken on every hand; and the prophetic periods I think must certainly have brought us into the neighborhood of the event.

...The great and good of all ages have had their minds directed to about this period of time; and a multitude are impressed with the solemn conviction that these are emphatically the last days.

Wouldn't you agree that in 1845, William Miller believed his preaching of the 1844 Message had been of God?

Did you somehow overlook these sections?

[John317]

....The phrase coming soon has pretty much lost all meaning since we can all point out the evils of each age and claim that it must be the worst. This is all part of the con.

You yourself are actually very strong evidence that Bible prophecy is true:

Quote:

2 Peter 3:2 That ye may be mindful of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

3:3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days scoffers, walking after their own lusts,

3:4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as [they were] from the beginning of the creation.

3:5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water:

3:6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished:

3:7 But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day [is] with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

Notice that Peter wrote 2,000 years ago that people like yourself would claim Christ's promise to return won't happen because everything is the same as it's always been.

[Lysimachus]

I was wondering, after Hiram Edson, Crosier, and Hahn, etc. discovered that the Christ had entered into the Holy of Holies in 1844, did any of them ever approach William Miller to present their findings?

Did William Miller ever get exposed to this interpretation? What was his reaction?

[ClubV12]

Of course he died,,, when? Not long after 1844. I've thought about that myself, I haven't come across anything. My suspicions are that after having become "famous" he was closely surrounded by men of good intention, but perhaps to protective. Many were still setting dates of course and again I suspect there was "money to be made" in doing so. No doubt a mix of unscrupulous as well as sincere individuals, drawing crowds, taking an offering, selling trinkets, books and such. Miller was being protected in some way, thus, deprived of outside counsel. I imagine his very life would have been at stake from some nut case somewhere, a lot of folks lost everything, including their soul, and would have blamed him for it.

[cardw]

The above shows that although Miller did not know how to explain why Christ did not come, he hadn't concluded that he was wrong to preach as he did. In fact, Miller wrote that if he had it to do over again, he would preach the same as he did before. He said that he believed "God will still justify his preaching as he did."

Ellen White's statements were about people who turned against their former faith in God's leading in the 1844 Movement. Miller never made any such statements. As the above shows, Miller continued to believe that what he had preached was the right thing for him to do.

You are placing words in William Millers mouth. He said he would do it again, not because he was right, but because he was honestly wrong. He was trying to make it clear that he was not trying to deceive people.

Miller turned from the Advent faith. Evidence for this is that Ellen White, whom you consider a prophet, had to apologize for him.

The weight of evidence is against you on this one.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

....The phrase coming soon has pretty much lost all meaning since we can all point out the evils of each age and claim that it must be the worst. This is all part of the con.

You yourself are actually very strong evidence that Bible prophecy is true:

There are scoffers of this nonsense in every age. This is not a unique age for looking at these as fairy tales.

This is not evidence of anything.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

So are you saying that John doesn't keep the commandments?

Are you reading that's what I am saying? You obviously read what you wish to hear.

God blesses!

Are you reading into what I'm saying?

[BobRyan]

While I do not condone name calling - I have to wonder if during the 20 years or so that you were an atheist railing against your former Baptist friends and against your wife's family views on God - did you ever come across as less than Christian? Less than loving?

If someone mistook you for a diehard baptist instead of the real atheist you now say you were at the time - wouldn't that have reflected bad on baptists?

[John317]

William Miller never accepted the teaching that the event was wrong. He believed the timing was off somehow. He continued to believe that the sanctuary to be cleansed was the earth.

[John317]

You are placing words in William Millers mouth. He said he would do it again, not because he was right, but because he was honestly wrong. He was trying to make it clear that he was not trying to deceive people.

Miller turned from the Advent faith. Evidence for this is that Ellen White, whom you consider a prophet, had to apologize for him.

The weight of evidence is against you on this one.

You appear to be unable to understand plain English:

Quote:

I am persuaded that I cannot be far out of the way, and I believe that God will still justify my preaching to the world.

With respect to other features of my views, I can see no reason to change my belief. We are living under the last form of the divided fourth kingdom, which brings us to the end. The prophecies which were to be fulfilled previous to the end, have been so far fulfilled that I find nothing in them to delay the Lord's coming. The signs of the times thicken on every hand; and the prophetic periods I think must certainly have brought us into the neighborhood of the event.

...The great and good of all ages have had their minds directed to about this period of time; and a multitude are impressed with the solemn conviction that these are emphatically the last days.

He said in 1845 that he believed that God would still justify his preaching to the world.

He said that he still believed "these are emphatically the last days."

William Miller did not retract what he had preached. He believed the timing was off, and he continued until his death to believe that God had led him to preach.

[cardw]

Quote:

I am persuaded that I cannot be far out of the way, and [color:#FF0000]I believe that God will still justify my preaching to the world.

He said in 1845 that he believed that God would still justify his preaching to the world.

He said that he still believed "these are emphatically the last days."

William Miller did not retract what he had preached. He believed the timing was off, and he continued until his death to believe that God had led him to preach.

You are debating points I haven't made. The fact is Ellen White believed that he rejected the message as SHE interpreted it. So your debate is with her interpretation not mine.

As fas as I can tell from reading his apologetic, he was justifying his preaching because he was honestly wrong. He did retract the areas where he was wrong. He admitted he was wrong on the date and he rejected the re-interpretation by adventists that it was Jesus doing a different work in the heavenly sanctuary. I didn't say he stopped being a Christian which would include believing that Jesus was coming soon, etc.

It doesn't matter what particulars he kept or left the fact is Ellen White believed he turned from the advent message as they were preaching it and would normally be included in those who rejected the message except she says that his friends were held responsible because he couldn't leave them.

You are still avoiding the problem we started with. Ellen White admits that he rejected the advent message they were preaching because she makes an apologetic for him.

Please just address this problem and stop going on all these tangents that make no difference to this problem.

[John317]

The fact is Ellen White believed that he rejected the message as SHE interpreted it.

Ellen White didn't claim that people were lost for rejecting the messages as she interpreted.

This is why you are confused. She said they were lost because having once accepted the 1844 Message as from the Holy Spirit, they then turned against it and against fellow Millerites and said that the Message of 1844 had not been of God but was of Satan.

William Miller never did this. He always accepted it as from God. He never said that the message had been an illusion or not from God but was satanic. He always believed that God would justify His preaching of the 1844 Message.

Here's the historical background taken from the article, Ellen G. White and the Shut-door Question, found on Comprehensive Research Edition of the CD-ROM, Ellen G. White Writings:

Quote:

In the years 1874, 1883, and 1884, Ellen White looked back in retrospect and recounted the history in which the shut door teaching figured, and commented upon it. We present first her published statement appearing in Spirit of Prophecy, volume 4, issued in 1884. In this volume, currently available in facsimile reprint, Ellen White devoted an entire chapter to “An Open and a Shut Door.”

The 1884 Ellen G. White Statement. “After the passing of the time of expectation, in 1844, Adventists still believed the Saviour’s coming to be very near; they held that they had reached an important crisis, and that the work of Christ as man’s intercessor before God had ceased. Having given the warning of the judgment near, they felt that their work for the world was done, and they lost their burden of soul for the salvation of sinners, while the bold and blasphemous scoffing of the ungodly seemed to them another evidence that the Spirit of God had been withdrawn from the rejecters of His mercy. All this confirmed them in the belief that probation had ended, or as they expressed it, ‘The door of mercy was shut.’”—Spirit of Prophecy, volume 4, p. 268.

12

Then the chapter closes with these words:

The passing of the time in 1844 was followed by a period of great trial to those who still held the Advent faith. Their only relief, so far as ascertaining their true position was concerned, was the light which directed their minds to the sanctuary above. As has been stated, Adventists were for a short time united in the belief that the door of mercy was shut. This position was soon abandoned. Some renounced their faith in their former reckoning of the prophetic periods, and ascribed to human or satanic agencies the powerful influence of the Holy Spirit which had attended the Advent movement. Another class firmly held that the Lord had led them in their past experience; and as they waited and watched and prayed to know the will of God, they saw that their great High Priest had entered upon another work of ministration, and, following him by faith, they were led to understand also the closing work of the church, and were prepared to receive and give to the world the warning of the third angel of Revelation 14.—Ibid., pp. 271-2.

The reader of this chapter “An Open and A Shut Door” is referred to an Appendix note. This is enlightening and we quote a portion of it:

Note 6. Page 268.—Almost all Adventists, including Mr. Miller, did, for a short time after their disappointment in 1844, believe that the world had received its last warning. They could hardly think otherwise, with their faith in the message which they had given,—“the hour of his judgment is come.” Revelation 14:6, 7. They naturally thought that this proclamation must close the dispensation. They were as unable to find their bearings at once as were the disciples when their Lord, whom they had hailed as their King coming to His throne, was crucified and buried. In both cases they were unable to comprehend their terrible disappointment.

But the idea that the work of the gospel was finished was soon renounced, except by some fanatical ones who would neither be counseled nor receive instruction. But most of those who renounced it, and yet retained their faith in the work, continued to believe that they who clearly saw the light of the heaven-sent warning and persistently rejected it, were rejected of the Lord. There is no more fanaticism in that than there is in the common belief that those obdurate Jews who continued to reject the light of the advanced truth sent to that generation, were rejected of God.—Spirit of Prophecy, volume 4, Appendix, p., 499. (Emphasis supplied).

The note then deals with the experience of the early Sabbath-keeping Adventists and their acceptance of the sanctuary truth and an understanding of the message of the Third Angel. It closes with a statement which is well

13

supported in certain of the exhibits which follow in this document.

Among the first who taught the third message and the open door, was the author of this book. [E. G. White] By her untiring zeal, her earnest appeals, and the clear light of the testimony which she bore, she did much to advance the cause, to correct the errors of fanaticism, to renew the hopes of the desponding, and to cheer the hearts of the “little flock” who loved the appearing of their soon-coming Saviour.—Ibid., p. 500.

See also The Great Controversy, p. 429, for a similar statement.

Ellen White in 1883 Answers the Charge. The second E. G. White statement we present was penned in 1883, and one of the few written by her in refutation of charges brought against her. It declares:

For a time after the disappointment in 1844, I did hold, in common with the advent body, that the door of mercy was then forever closed to the world. This position was taken before my first vision was given me. It was the light given me of God that corrected our error, and enabled us to see the true position.

I am still a believer in the shut-door theory, but not in the sense in which we at first employed the term or in which it is employed by my opponents.

There was a shut door in Noah’s day. There was at that time a withdrawal of the Spirit of God from the sinful race that perished in the waters of the Flood. God Himself gave the shut-door message to Noah:

“My Spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years” (Genesis 6:3).

There was a shut door in the days of Abraham. Mercy ceased to plead with the inhabitants of Sodom, and all but Lot, with his wife and two daughters, were consumed by the fire sent down from heaven.

There was a shut door in Christ’s day. The Son of God declared to the unbelieving Jews of that generation, “Your house is left unto you desolate” (Matthew 23:38).

Looking down the stream of time to the last days, the same infinite power proclaimed through John:

14

“These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth” (Revelation 3:7).

I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels’ messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them.

Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection. It was only the class who had despised the light from heaven that the Spirit of God could not reach. And this class included, as I have stated, both those who refused to accept the message when it was presented to them, and also those who, having received it, afterward renounced their faith. These might have a form of godliness, and profess to be followers of Christ; but having no living connection with God, they would be taken captive by the delusions of Satan. These two classes are brought to view in the vision—those who declared the light which they had followed a delusion, and the wicked of the world who, having rejected the light, had been rejected of God. No reference is made to those who had not seen the light, and therefore were not guilty of its rejection.—Ms 4, 1883 in Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 63, 64.

[cardw]

Those who did not see the light, had not the guilt of its rejection. It was only the class who had despised the light from heaven that the Spirit of God could not reach. And this class included, as I have stated, both those who refused to accept the message when it was presented to them, and also those who, having received it, afterward renounced their faith. These might have a form of godliness, and profess to be followers of Christ; but having no living connection with God, they would be taken captive by the delusions of Satan. These two classes are brought to view in the vision—those who declared the light which they had followed a delusion, and the wicked of the world who, having rejected the light, had been rejected of God. No reference is made to those who had not seen the light, and therefore were not guilty of its rejection.—Ms 4, 1883 in Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 63, 64.

[John317]

Those things aren't news. You're talking about things that have been known ever since 1845.

But you seem to be attempting to make something of those things that isn't true.

It is obvious to me that you are trying to make it appear that Ellen White lied.

The big difference between us is that you think Ellen White was a false prophet and "crazy" whereas I believe she was a true prophet to whom God showed visions. You evidently think she was making all these things up.

So if you want to believe that, it's your prerogative.

Quote:

After Jesus opened the door of the most holy, the light of the Sabbath was seen, and the people of God were tested, as the children of Israel were tested anciently, to see if they would keep God's law. I saw the third angel pointing upward, showing the disappointed ones the way to the holiest of the heavenly sanctuary. As they by faith enter the most holy, they find Jesus, and hope and joy spring up anew. I saw them looking back, reviewing the past, from the proclamation of the second advent of Jesus, down through their experience to the passing of the time in 1844. They see their disappointment explained, and joy and certainty again animate them. The third angel has lighted up the past, the present, and the future, and they know that God has indeed led them by His mysterious providence. {EW 254.2}

It was represented to me that the remnant followed Jesus into the most holy place and beheld the ark and the mercy seat, and were captivated with their glory. Jesus then raised the cover of the ark, and lo! the tables of stone, with the ten commandments written upon them. They trace down the lively oracles, but start back with trembling when they see the fourth commandment among the ten holy precepts, with a brighter light shining upon it than upon the other nine, and a halo of glory all around it. They find nothing there informing them that the Sabbath has been abolished, or changed to the first day of the week. The commandment reads as when spoken by the voice of God in solemn and awful grandeur upon the mount, while the lightnings flashed and the thunders rolled; it is the same as when written with His own finger on the tables of stone: "Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God." They are amazed as they behold the care taken of the ten commandments. They see them placed close by Jehovah, overshadowed and protected by His holiness. They see that they have been trampling upon the fourth commandment of the decalogue, and have observed a day handed down by the heathen and papists, instead of the day sanctified by Jehovah. They humble themselves before God and mourn over their past transgressions. {EW 255.1}

I saw the incense in the censer smoke as Jesus offered their confessions and prayers to His Father. And as it ascended, a bright light rested upon Jesus and upon the mercy seat; and the earnest, praying ones, who were troubled because they had discovered themselves to be transgressors of God's law, were blessed, and their countenances lighted up with hope and joy. They joined in the work of the third angel and raised their voices to proclaim the solemn warning. But few at first received it; yet the faithful continued with energy to proclaim the message. Then I saw many embrace the message of the third angel and unite their voices with those who had first given the warning, and they honored God by observing His sanctified rest day. {EW 256.1}

Many who embraced the third message had not had an experience in the two former messages. Satan understood this, and his evil eye was upon them to overthrow them; but the third angel was pointing them to the most holy place, and those who had had an experience in the past messages were pointing them the way to the heavenly sanctuary. Many saw the perfect chain of truth in the angels' messages, and gladly received them in their order, and followed Jesus by faith into the heavenly sanctuary. These messages were represented to me as an anchor to the people of God. Those who understand and receive them will be kept from being swept away by the many delusions of Satan. {EW 256.2}

After the great disappointment in 1844, Satan and his angels were busily engaged in laying snares to unsettle the faith of the body. He affected the minds of persons who had had an experience in the messages, and who had an appearance of humility. Some pointed to the future for the fulfillment of the first and second messages, while others pointed far back into the past, declaring that they had been there fulfilled. These were gaining an influence over the minds of the inexperienced and unsettling their faith. Some were searching the Bible to build up a faith of their own, independent of the body. Satan exulted in all this; for he knew that those who broke loose from the anchor he could affect by different errors and drive about with divers winds of doctrine. Many who had led in the first and second messages now denied them, and there was division and confusion throughout the body. {EW 256.3}

My attention was then called to William Miller. He looked perplexed and was bowed with anxiety and distress for his people. The company who had been united and loving in 1844 were losing their love, opposing one another, and falling into a cold, backslidden state. As he beheld this, grief wasted his strength. I saw leading men watching him, and fearing lest he should receive the third angel's message and the commandments of God. And as he would lean toward the light from heaven, these men would lay some plan to draw his mind away. A human influence was exerted to keep him in darkness and to retain his influence among those who opposed the truth. At length William Miller raised his voice against the light from heaven. He failed in not receiving the message which would have fully explained his disappointment and cast a light and glory on the past, which would have revived his exhausted energies, brightened his hope, and led him to glorify God. He leaned to human wisdom instead of divine, but being broken with arduous labor in his Master's cause and by age, he was not as accountable as those who kept him from the truth. They are responsible; the sin rests upon them. {EW 257.1}

If William Miller could have seen the light of the third message, many things which looked dark and mysterious to him would have been explained. But his brethren professed so deep love and interest for him, that he thought he could not tear away from them. His heart would incline toward the truth, and then he looked at his brethren; they opposed it. Could he tear away from those who had stood side by side with him in proclaiming the coming of Jesus? He thought they surely would not lead him astray. {EW 258.1}

God suffered him to fall under the power of Satan, the dominion of death, and hid him in the grave from those who were constantly drawing him from the truth. Moses erred as he was about to enter the Promised Land. So also, I saw that William Miller erred as he was soon to enter the heavenly Canaan, in suffering his influence to go against the truth. Others led him to this; others must account for it. But angels watch the precious dust of this servant of God, and he will come forth at the sound of the last trump. {EW 258.2}

A Firm Platform

I saw a company who stood well guarded and firm, giving no countenance to those who would unsettle the established faith of the body. God looked upon them with approbation. I was shown three steps-- the first, second, and third angels' messages. Said my accompanying angel, "Woe to him who shall move a block or stir a pin of these messages. The true understanding of these messages is of vital importance. The destiny of souls hangs upon the manner in which they are received." I was again brought down through these messages, and saw how dearly the people of God had purchased their experience. It had been obtained through much suffering and severe conflict. God had led them along step by step, until He had placed them upon a solid, immovable platform. I saw individuals approach the platform and examine the foundation. Some with rejoicing immediately stepped upon it. Others commenced to find fault with the foundation. They wished improvements made, and then the platform would be more perfect, and the people much happier. Some stepped off the platform to examine it and declared it to be laid wrong. But I saw that nearly all stood firm upon the platform and exhorted those who had stepped off to cease their complaints; for God was the Master Builder, and they were fighting against Him. They recounted the wonderful work of God, which had led them to the firm platform, and in union raised their eyes to heaven and with a loud voice glorified God. This affected some of those who had complained and left the platform, and they with humble look again stepped upon it. {EW 258.3}

I was pointed back to the proclamation of the first advent of Christ. John was sent in the spirit and power of Elijah to prepare the way of Jesus. Those who rejected the testimony of John were not benefited by the teachings of Jesus. Their opposition to the message that foretold His coming placed them where they could not readily receive the strongest evidence that He was the Messiah. Satan led on those who rejected the message of John to go still farther, to reject and crucify Christ. In doing this they placed themselves where they could not receive the blessing on the day of Pentecost, which would have taught them the way into the heavenly sanctuary. The rending of the veil of the temple showed that the Jewish sacrifices and ordinances would no longer be received. The great Sacrifice had been offered and had been accepted, and the Holy Spirit which descended on the day of Pentecost carried the minds of the disciples from the earthly sanctuary to the heavenly, where Jesus had entered by His own blood, to shed upon His disciples the benefits of His atonement. But the Jews were left in total darkness. They lost all the light which they might have had upon the plan of salvation, and still trusted in their useless sacrifices and offerings. The heavenly sanctuary had taken the place of the earthly, yet they had no knowledge of the change. Therefore they could not be benefited by the mediation of Christ in the holy place. {EW 259.1}

[John317]

...So again John, you are in conflict with Ellen White on this. She had to make an exception for William Miller to retain credibility.

William Miller rejected the idea completely that 1844 had anything to do with any prophetic event. He did not accept the third angels message.

But whether someone rejected the third angels message didn't mean they were lost. That was not the issue.

The point is that William Miller never rejected the belief that God had led him to preach the 1844 Message.

That is different from believing that the 1844 date was a fulfillment of prophecy. He believed that the timing was off somehow. He didn't have an answer as to how it occurred, but he never gave up his belief that God had led him to preach.

Did Miller makes errors? Yes, of course. No one has ever denied that. He didn't accept the Sabbath. He didn't accept the non-immortality of the soul. He didn't accept the call to come out of Babylon. He didn't accept the teaching that Christ went into the Most Holy Place instead of coming to the earth.

But those things don't add up to a rejection of his conviction that God had led him to preach that Christ was coming in 1844. As he said in August of 1845, he still believed that God would justify his preaching of the 1844 date.

[John317]

Quote:

I was shown in vision, and I still believe, that there was a shut door in 1844. All who saw the light of the first and second angels’ messages and rejected that light, were left in darkness. And those who accepted it and received the Holy Spirit which attended the proclamation of the message from heaven, and who afterward renounced their faith and pronounced their experience a delusion, thereby rejected the Spirit of God, and it no longer pleaded with them.

William Miller doesn't fit this description: he never saw the light of the first and second angels' messages and then rejected that light.

Miller also never renounced his faith and pronounced his experience a delusion.

He said that he continued to believe that God would justify his preaching of the soon coming of Christ. He always believed that we are living near the time of Christ's return.

[Lysimachus]

Which is precisely why I believe the Lord took Miller out of the scene to save him. Had the Lord allowed Miller to continue living, chances are Miller may have rejected the messages due to pressure and discouragement. God saw that Miller had already gone through enough. It was time to seal his record.