ClubV12 Posted August 5, 2011 Share Posted August 5, 2011 I can hear the groans already, oh no, he's bringing a hammer to the party! Fact is, I'm finding them very well balanced, but I also see you could find a quote to back up nearly any position you want. All excited, I mentioned to my "church mentor" that I had read something about "golf". He was instantly on edge, "So, golf is bad huh?" I was kind of shocked, but I'm finding thats a common reaction by some folks who have been in the church a long time. There still nursing wounds for being hammered by the Testimonies. Looks like golf might be a GOOD thing! Maybe I'll try it, a bit slower than racing, but... Sister White says get out of the office, get some fresh air, get some exercise, go ride a horse. Recreation is "RE-creation". Leaving my old life styles behind I think it's important to look for something that can, not exactly replace them, but some new form of recreation. I've also considered that getting out of the office (home office for me) may mean, walking around distributing literature in some way, fresh air, excercise and all that. The Testimonies make a distinct and loud call to "get to work", go right to work, spreading the good news. I'm considering some options to do so and am open to suggestions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Oh, so this is a "Theology" item? OK, I figured townhall would be appropriate, so here we are in the shark tank... :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 5, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 5, 2011 As soon as my feet are a little better, I'm leaving the computer for the streets. Going to go door to door passing out literature and asking if people want to study the Bible. I worked as a literature evangelist in 1978-1979 in the Seattle area and also in Southern California for a couple of summers. I'm thinking of giving out a chapter of Steps to Christ along with paper that tells about the local SDA church and invites them to join the Sabbath school and worship services. If they are interested in more, I could sign them up for a Bible correspondence course. It's fairly easy to find people who want to study the Bible on Sabbath afternoons. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 Sounds like Paul did a lot of that kind of work also, which is why I was thinking about it. Good call. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 5, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 5, 2011 Have you seen the new edition of the Testimonies? It looks like a Bible, all 9 volumes in one fairly small book. Costs about $80.00, as I recall. God willing, I plan to get one soon. The print's not too small, either. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 5, 2011 Author Share Posted August 5, 2011 What???? It's GOT to be a "Cliffs Notes" or streamlined version to fit all that in one book. Never heard of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 5, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 5, 2011 No, it's not streamlined; it's all 9 books in one. About the size of a Bible, and not all that big, either. The letters are fairly easy to read, too. Pretty amazing. Saw it the other day at the ABC in Loma Linda. Gail might know about it. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 5, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 5, 2011 Oh, so this is a "Theology" item? Yeah, gotta try and keep politics and religion out of Townhall. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddar Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I can hear the groans already, oh no, he's bringing a hammer to the party! Fact is, I'm finding them very well balanced, but I also see you could find a quote to back up nearly any position you want. All excited, I mentioned to my "church mentor" that I had read something about "golf". He was instantly on edge, "So, golf is bad huh?" I was kind of shocked, but I'm finding thats a common reaction by some folks who have been in the church a long time. There still nursing wounds for being hammered by the Testimonies. Looks like golf might be a GOOD thing! Maybe I'll try it, a bit slower than racing, but... Sister White says get out of the office, get some fresh air, get some exercise, go ride a horse. Recreation is "RE-creation". Leaving my old life styles behind I think it's important to look for something that can, not exactly replace them, but some new form of recreation. I've also considered that getting out of the office (home office for me) may mean, walking around distributing literature in some way, fresh air, excercise and all that. The Testimonies make a distinct and loud call to "get to work", go right to work, spreading the good news. I'm considering some options to do so and am open to suggestions. Does Sister White tell you when to go to the bathroom too! LOL I really liked when Jones and Waggoner told Sister White what to do – Her proud spirit needed to be checked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 I've got to get that! I'll check on it after my road trip when I get home. Cheddar, I wasn't aware of the counsel from Jones/Waggoner to Sister White, but you know, we ALL need our pride to be checked. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Gerr Posted August 6, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 6, 2011 I have read various parts of the 9 vol Testimonies, mostly when checking a reference. I decided to read them through. I'm a third of the way through vol 1. Like the prophets of old, she had a hard life. Just got through reading where she lost a baby son in spite of fervent prayers, even from a prophet. So far I have not found any off-the-wall counsels. She seems heartbroken when people that she has seen in vision reject counsel from heaven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 I was impressed, almost to the point of tears, when reading Volume 1 concerning her and James life. It was hard, and it was so sad how often they were misunderstood by the brethren. They made some fundamental mistakes in their lifestyle, not knowing better. Like lack of good nutrition, perhaps by investing TO much for the cause? Working to hard doing "good things"? Shows they were human, with a learning curve, very real folks, working out their salvation while working for the Lord. In time they, she, certainly attained a nice balance in life, but that didn't happen overnight. I was also impressed when James got sick (he was sick a lot) and how it was important for him to do all that they could in terms of fresh air, diet, exercise, etc. before expecting the Lord to work a miracle on their behalf. Plenty of notes on the Lord doing exactly that as well! May the Lord keep us from swerving from one side of the road to the other! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Yes, Gerry, the light has ever so slowly been dawning, but so dimly as I've been reading various writings of hers and her contemporaries. She cared so much for people, often rising in the middle of the night and praying for them. I was especially impressed how she labored for her friends til they accepted the Lord. Imagine being so Christlike-tho absolutely dependent on the Lord-that the Lord could work through us to win souls for Him. Another thought that impressed me was when her husband remarked about her gift of exhortation, being able to bring meeting-houses of people to their knees in tears and surrender to the Lord. What I would give to have been able to hear her since we read her writings according to our own personality, or that of others, all too often. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Good post TSQ g Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LifeHiscost Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 I really liked when Jones and Waggoner told Sister White what to do – Her proud spirit needed to be checked. She admitted that God permitted health problems in her life to keep her humble. When Jones and Waggoner received counsel they did not appreciate, it is my understanding they left the Adventist body of believers. Please correct me if that is wrong. God blesses! Quote Lift Jesus up!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 6, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 6, 2011 ...I really liked when Jones and Waggoner told Sister White what to do- Her proud spirit needed to be checked. Do you have a reference for that? Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 6, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 6, 2011 ..She admitted that God permitted health problems in her life to keep her humble. Paul says the same thing in 2 Cor. 12: 7. We're not sure if it was a health problem that Paul suffered from, but we know that God allowed something in Paul's life to continue in order to keep him from being "exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations." Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 6, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 6, 2011 ...When Jones and Waggoner received counsel they did not appreciate, it is my understanding they left the Adventist body of believers. Please correct me if that is wrong. Jones and Waggoner both eventually left the SDA church. They both connected with Dr. Kellogg and came under his influence. Waggoner in particular adopted some false teachings related to pantheisitic-type thinking. You can see evidence of this in the original of his book on Galatians, published 1900. (The edited editions won't show this evidence.) Waggoner also got involved in some ideas about "free love" so that while in England, he became romantically involved with another woman. Waggoner also rejected the Investigative Judgment. He claimed near the end of his life that he had never accepted it. Both men unfortunately rejected the counsels of Ellen White. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
monty Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 John317.......... There is no doubt Jones was a controversial person but on what basis do you make your statement that both men rejected the counsels of Ellen White? The politics of the SDA church of that day (as now) was often brutal. There were intricate involvements between individuals that very much influenced the path Jones took. Standing at this point in history and passing judgement might be wide of the mark. George Knight in his "From 1888 to Apostasy" quotes Jones saying shortly before his death, "I have never given up the faith of Seventh-day Adventists. There was never a time in my life when I loved the Message more than I do today". He kept all the letters of EGW to him and were in a trunk which his wife still had when she died in 1946. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 Jones case was certainly more complicated than Waggoners. I think the turning point for Jones was when he was advised strongly not to work for Kellogg. Tis a serious matter to reject the counsel of the Lords messenger. Having done that, even though leadership may have failed in handling the matter perfectly, he placed himself on the evil one's ground. Is he lost then, forever? I won't make that call, but the record doesn't look good. We know from Millers case, that he was in a position where he could not, from a sincere heart, accept the present truth. God layed him away as a result and angels guard his dust. Was Jones acting from a sincere heart in the path he took, or was he deceived and abused in such a way that he remains faultless? Wagoneer was having an affair, while still married, Sister White gave him a testimony specifically about that. He not only rejected in heart, he eventually divorced and remarried! Pretty clear cut where he was coming from. A moral fall of no small magnitude. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddar Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 Originally Posted By: LifeHiscost ...When Jones and Waggoner received counsel they did not appreciate, it is my understanding they left the Adventist body of believers. Please correct me if that is wrong. Jones and Waggoner both eventually left the SDA church. They both connected with Dr. Kellogg and came under his influence. Waggoner in particular adopted some false teachings related to pantheisitic-type thinking. You can see evidence of this in the original of his book on Galatians, published 1900. (The edited editions won't show this evidence.) Waggoner also got involved in some ideas about "free love" so that while in England, he became romantically involved with another woman. Waggoner also rejected the Investigative Judgment. He claimed near the end of his life that he had never accepted it. Both men unfortunately rejected the counsels of Ellen White. You have Jones and Waggoner confused! They're not interchangeable! Those men left the church because their message was rejected and they were hated. I guess the brethren were wrong on that one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
teresaq Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 When Jones and Waggoner received counsel they did not appreciate, it is my understanding they left the Adventist body of believers. Please correct me if that is wrong. God blesses! Both Jones and Waggoner humbly accepted counsel from Ellen White until they drifted into error. As someone else has commented I believe how they were treated by the brethern played a large part in it...but we do not learn from the past. We turn around and do the same thing. Quote facebook. /teresa.quintero.790 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 John317, The good news is that there does seem to be indirect evidence that shows that Waggoner repented near the end of his life: http://www.1888mpm.org/blog/letter-kept-secret-l-e-froom http://1888mpm.org/history/letter-clarification-unanswered Some interesting data there. Oh how wonderful that would be if he did make it, and we can see him in heaven. Especially after knowing how much he was used by God with the 1888 Messages of Righteousness by Faith. I have also heard there is indirect evidence for A.T. Jones too. It's on that site, but I can't find it right now. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 6, 2011 Author Share Posted August 6, 2011 It is noteworthy that both the men were associated with Kellogg. Sister White had a VISION regarding the danger to Jones. He accepted Sister Whites counsel only to the point of saying he would "be careful" and only stay at Battle Creek for a short time. She had told him not to go, period. While there he was bound by silken threads and became more and more confused on spiritual issues. Such was the power of Kelloggs thoughts toward pantheism, which was rampant in Battle Creek. Wagoneer also outwardly accepted the counsel of Sister White, but there was no true heart felt reform. It is one thing to say we believe, quite another to put that into action and turn from our ways. WERE the leaders tough on Jones? DID they make mistakes? I'm not entirely convinced that is the case. Jones resigned after being reproved by the GC for his "abusive" treatment of the workers under his leadership. This was consistent with his style of leadership and something he had been warned about many times. How could one, anyone, deliver that message to Jones and NOT be accused of being "insensitive"? No matter how gentle the counsel may have been delivered. John, I can now clearly see WHY you moved this thread from the Townhall, I never thought it would get into such details and controversy! It was just a simple thread, a short testimony, or so I thought... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lysimachus Posted August 6, 2011 Share Posted August 6, 2011 ClubV12, I guess I'm not understanding what the controversy is here. What is the issue of contention concerning Waggoner and Jones in this thread? I'm not seeing it. Quote ~Lysimachus (Marcos S.) Author of article, Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation (see attachment for article) Currently writing a book, Vindicating the Historical School of Prophetic Interpretation Founder of the largest and fastest SDA Apologetics Group on Facebook, Seventh-Day Adventism - Defending the Pillars of the Faith Writer and apologetics contributor at Adventist Defense League Vindicating the Year-Day Principle of Prophetic Interpretation.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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