Been reading the Testimonies....

[Gerr]

Romans chapter five says nothing about our (humans) having to receive the Gift! It says that regardless how we feel about the Gift God did it anyway!

That means ALL HUMANITY WAS SAVED RIGHT FROM THE START!

That is God's message, that is the Good News!

You must have skipped Rom 3!

ESV | Ro 3:24 and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith.

24 and all need to be made right with God by his grace, which is a free gift. They need to be made free from sin through Jesus Christ. 25 God sent him to die in our place to take away our sins. We receive forgiveness through faith in the blood of Jesus’ death. NCV

[skyblue888]

And thus we read from the Testimonies, "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Him as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." D.A.347.

It is the merits of His shed blood, the merits of His infinite sacrifice. Unless we do this on a daily basis, we cannot be saved. This is the true meaning of Romans 3:25 which says that Christ is our propitiation through faith in His blood.

Under the Holy Spirit's influence, if we do not interpose a perverse will, "We shall come in repentance and contrition, and with a despairing sense of our own finite weakness, we shall learn that we must daily apply to the merits of the blood of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." F.W.86.

sky

[Just*]

Could you explain what the significance is of the "legal justification"? Will anyone get into the Kingdom of God on the basis of "legal justification"? Or will all who enter there be admitted because of God's unmerited favor through faith in Jesus Christ?

John317

____________________

Good questions.

Legal justification will not help anyone unless faith is exercised and it must be the right faith for the bible tells us that "there is one Lord, one faith, one baptism." Eph.4:5. It is the faith that lays right hold upon the merits of the blood of a crucified and risen Saviour to bring into the life, "the grace that brings salvation to all men" (Titus 2:11) as it is "exceedingly abundant with faith and love that are in Christ Jesus." 1 Tim.1:14."

What did Christ redeem by His sacrifice? The world. Christ died for the world. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

This is not saying that Christ "saved" the whole world eternally. But He paid the price for the world’s redemption, so that legally it was redeemed by His objective sacrifice. This is the only reason that physical life can continue on the planet.

The divine sacrifice was made irrespective of human faith.A gift does not have to be received before it qualifies as a gift; it, can be rejected after it is "freely" given. "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" before anyone believed in Him.The gospel presents justification by faith as a response to what Christ has already accomplished.Thus experiential justification by faith rests upon the foundation of a legal justification. The subjective cannot exist without the "once for all" universal objective which precedes it.

We must never tell the sinner that Christ is not his Saviour until he first elects Him to be such.The Good News of the Gospel does not tell him only what Christ will do for him if he first takes the initiative, but it tells him what Christ has already done for him. Thus his believing becomes a heart appreciation of what is already a fact. He was reconciled to God at the cross. Now he believes it, and thus he receives the atonement (Rom. 5:11). He became our Saviour at the cross. When we "elect" Him so by faith, then He becomes "specially" so, unto eternal life. He is already "the Saviour of all men" in that He has already died their second death, paid the penalty for their sins, and thus legally justified them, even though the vast majority may spurn Him.

In pure New Testament justification by faith "boasting … is excluded" (Romans 3:27), but in the popular view the key factor is the sinner's initiative. He can say, "I took advantage of the offer, I accepted the provision, I made the decision, that brings me to heaven. Christ's sacrifice did me no good until I did something about it." Thus an egocentric mindset is locked in, and a subliminal legalism remains.

"All men" owe even this present life to the sacrifice of Christ. Human salvation depends on God's initiative, and damnation depends on man's initiative. When the sinner hears the Good News and believes, he responds to God's initiative, and thus he experiences justification by faith.

He has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Timothy 1:10). For whom has He brought life? For "all men." For whom has He also brought immortality? For those who believe.

This does not mean that "all men" will be saved against their will. The gift Christ has given "every man" can be despised and refused.

This is the "in Christ" idea of the New Testament.

[skyblue888]

What did Christ redeem by His sacrifice? The world. Christ died for the world. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

This is not saying that Christ "saved" the whole world eternally. But He paid the price for the world’s redemption, so that legally it was redeemed by His objective sacrifice. This is the only reason that physical life can continue on the planet.

The divine sacrifice was made irrespective of human faith.A gift does not have to be received before it qualifies as a gift; it, can be rejected after it is "freely" given. "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" before anyone believed in Him.The gospel presents justification by faith as a response to what Christ has already accomplished.Thus experiential justification by faith rests upon the foundation of a legal justification. The subjective cannot exist without the "once for all" universal objective which precedes it.

We must never tell the sinner that Christ is not his Saviour until he first elects Him to be such.The Good News of the Gospel does not tell him only what Christ will do for him if he first takes the initiative, but it tells him what Christ has already done for him. Thus his believing becomes a heart appreciation of what is already a fact. He was reconciled to God at the cross. Now he believes it, and thus he receives the atonement (Rom. 5:11). He became our Saviour at the cross. When we "elect" Him so by faith, then He becomes "specially" so, unto eternal life. He is already "the Saviour of all men" in that He has already died their second death, paid the penalty for their sins, and thus legally justified them, even though the vast majority may spurn Him.

In pure New Testament justification by faith "boasting … is excluded" (Romans 3:27), but in the popular view the key factor is the sinner's initiative. He can say, "I took advantage of the offer, I accepted the provision, I made the decision, that brings me to heaven. Christ's sacrifice did me no good until I did something about it." Thus an egocentric mindset is locked in, and a subliminal legalism remains.

"All men" owe even this present life to the sacrifice of Christ. Human salvation depends on God's initiative, and damnation depends on man's initiative. When the sinner hears the Good News and believes, he responds to God's initiative, and thus he experiences justification by faith.

He has brought life and immortality to light through the gospel (2 Timothy 1:10). For whom has He brought life? For "all men." For whom has He also brought immortality? For those who believe.

This does not mean that "all men" will be saved against their will. The gift Christ has given "every man" can be despised and refused.

Just

____________________________

I totally agree with that.

Very well put.

sky

[miz3]

Originally Posted By: miz3

According to the RULE, Justification came FIRST even before humans did or said anything!

What you mean, perhaps, is that God's love and the death of Christ-- the sacrifice-- came first before humans did or said anything.

Justification is God's declaration that I am "just as if I had not sinned." This doesn't happen until I personally accept, or receive, God's gift of Christ.

God doesn't justify me or anyone else simply by virtue of having been born. If that were the case, everyone would be saved.

God's love is unconditional, but justification and salvation are conditional. God proved his love for the human race by giving Christ while we were His enemy. This gave the whole human race a second trial but Christ's death didn't mean that God declared all humanity righteous and without sin. Christ's death proves to us that God wants to be friends, that He isn't our enemy, but instead that He loves us infinitely and wants us to be with Him throughout eternity.

[miz3]

God doesn't justify me or anyone else simply by virtue of having been born. If that were the case, everyone would be saved.

That is not in anyway shape or form TRUE!

Humans can REJECT WHAT GOD HAS DONE!

SO YOUR STATEMENT IS NOT TRUE IN SENSE WHATSOEVER!

YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THAT!

THIS IS JUST ANOTHER OF YOUR TYPICAL DEBATING TACTICS BY TRYING TO MISSTATE WHAT THE OTHER PERSON IS SAYING!

YOU AND I HAVE BEEN OVER THIS BEFORE JOHN317 AND FOR YOU TO MAKE SUCH A STATEMENT IS NOT A CHRISTIAN THING TO DO!

AS A CHRISTIAN YOU SHOULD KNOW BETTER THAN TO MISSTATE WHAT IS BEING STATED!

[miz3]

Jesus' Death on the Cross Justified all men! That is what the Scripture says.

[ClubV12]

miz3, I don't agree with your interpretation of Romans 5. SHOUTING it, over and over, won't change that, for me or for anybody. Saying you've "proved it" doesn't make it so, it's still only an opinion. Frankly, your opinions carry less and less weight the more you post as it becomes clear just how confused you are on this issue.

Outside of SDA jargon or anything else, the case you are trying to make just isn't logical. On the one hand you assert we have no choice, on the other hand you allude to the case we DO have choice. It cannot be both ways, the more you try to explain the more confused you appear to be on it.

[miz3]

miz3, I don't agree with your interpretation of Romans 5. SHOUTING it, over and over, won't change that, for me or for anybody. Saying you've "proved it" doesn't make it so, it's still only an opinion. Frankly, your opinions carry less and less weight the more you post as it becomes clear just how confused you are on this issue.

Outside of SDA jargon or anything else, the case you are trying to make just isn't logical. On the one hand you assert we have no choice, on the other hand you allude to the case we DO have choice. It cannot be both ways, the more you try to explain the more confused you appear to be on it.

NOPE!

Not my opinion. This is Paul's inspired FACT!

I am sorry that you don't accept Paul's inspired words and facts.

[ClubV12]

Actually I fully accept the work of Paul as an inspired author of the bible. But, that doesn't mean I interpret it the same way others do. Your post would be more applicable to some who do not accept Paul as inspired at all!

Your continual insistence that people see and accept your interpretation as the only viable solution is quite stubborn and unrealistic. Be reasonable, by taking such a position it is impossible to have a discussion, it will inevitably turn to an argument. A childish argument, little more than "I'm right, your wrong", and so it continues...

[miz3]

Actually I fully accept the work of Paul as an inspired author of the bible. But, that doesn't mean I interpret it the same way others do. Your post would be more applicable to some who do not accept Paul as inspired at all!

Your continual insistence that people see and accept your interpretation as the only viable solution is quite stubborn and unrealistic. Be reasonable, by taking such a position it is impossible to have a discussion, it will inevitably turn to an argument. A childish argument, little more than "I'm right, your wrong", and so it continues...

I have seen you take very hardened positions especially in regard to Ellen White.

Why is it important for me to compromise when you do not compromise yourself? It appears that you do not practice what you are preaching in your statement cited above.

Your continual insistence (ClubV12)that people see and accept your interpretation as the only viable solution is quite stubborn and unrealistic. Be reasonable (ClubV12), by taking such a position it is impossible to have a discussion, it will inevitably turn to an argument. A childish argument, little more than "I'm right, your wrong" and so it continues...

[ClubV12]

We all have absolutes in our life, miz3, for me, Sister White is an inspired author of divine revelation to us, in this time, from the throne of God. That is not open to discussion as to what I believe, I proclaim it loudly and make no apology. However, I don't insist you or anyone believe as I do.

When it comes to interpretation of any given bible verse or prophecy I respect Sister Whites counsel, if she has any, on the issue at hand. That is ONE source, the bible itself is yet another source, counsel of the brethren is yet another! I like to use multiple sources, as did the pioneers of the SDA church, as did William Miller. I think it's the best way to understand scripture. Some disagree with that premise and prefer their own interpretation, independant of others. OK, thats not the way I work, but OK, if thats the way they want to work.

I leave room for your views on biblical interpretation, I leave room for your views on Sister White. I may, and often do, have different views on the same subject, and I'm OK with that.

[miz3]

We all have absolutes in our life, miz3, for me, Sister White is an inspired author of divine revelation to us, in this time, from the throne of God. That is not open to discussion as to what I believe, I proclaim it loudly and make no apology. However, I don't insist you or anyone believe as I do.

When it comes to interpretation of any given bible verse or prophecy I respect Sister Whites counsel, if she has any, on the issue at hand. That is ONE source, the bible itself is yet another source, counsel of the brethren is yet another! I like to use multiple sources, as did the pioneers of the SDA church, as did William Miller. I think it's the best way to understand scripture. Some disagree with that premise and prefer their own interpretation, independant of others. OK, thats not the way I work, but OK, if thats the way they want to work.

I leave room for your views on biblical interpretation, I leave room for your views on Sister White. I may, and often do, have different views on the same subject, and I'm OK with that.

We all have absolutes in our life ClubV12, for me it is the Bible. That is not open to discussion as to what I believe, I proclaim it loudly and make no apology. However, I don't insist that you or anyone else believe as I do.

When it comes to interpretation of any given Bible verse I respect God's counsel, if God has any, on the issue at hand. That is THE ONLY source. I think it's the best way to understand Scripture. Some disagree with that premise and prefer their own interpretation, independant of the Bible. OK, thats not the way I work, but OK, if thats the way they want to work.

I leave room for your views on Biblical interpretation. I leave room for your use of Ellen White. I may, and often do, have different views on the same subject, and I'm OK with that.

[John317]

What did Christ redeem by His sacrifice? The world. Christ died for the world. The Lamb was slain before the foundation of the world.

This is not saying that Christ "saved" the whole world eternally. But He paid the price for the world's redemption, so that legally it was redeemed by His objective sacrifice. This is the only reason that physical life can continue on the planet.

The divine sacrifice was made irrespective of human faith.A gift does not have to be received before it qualifies as a gift; it, can be rejected after it is "freely" given. "God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son" before anyone believed in Him.[size:14pt]The gospel presents justification by faith as a response to what Christ has already accomplished.

Hey Just, I completely agree with all of the above. This is the gospel, that He lived a perfect life, died, was raised from the grave, ascended to the Father where He now ministers for us as our High Priest, and is soon coming back in glory for His Church.

Thanks for posting and keep coming back! :-)