Been reading the Testimonies....

[John317]

"Every hour squandered over the toilet should reprove them for leaving the intellect to lie waste."

- Testimonies Vol.4, p.644.5

Of course, by "toilet," Ellen White meant

TOILET, n.

1. A covering or cloth of linen, silk or tapestry, spread over a table in a chamber or dressing room. Hence,

2. A dressing table.

(1828 Websters Dictionary)

[John317]

Why, do you think they would have something like that at the White Estate?

I can guarantee that they have it at the Ellen G. White Estate. But they also give information on the context of the letter, such as the following:

Quote:

What Happened To A.T. Jones

From the Comprehensive Research Edition of Ellen G. White Writings:

....At the General Conference session held February 19 to March 8, 1897, at College View, Nebraska, Jones was elected a member of the General Conference Committee. He served in this capacity until, in a most unusual action, he resigned some time prior to the General Conference of 1901. Concerning this it should be noted that subsequent to the General Conference session held in February, 1899, efforts were made to right certain wrongs pointed out by the testimonies, and it is reported:

“The efforts of the Committee in this direction did not in every instance meet with that hearty cooperation that might be expected. This caused Elder Jones to lose sight of the dignity of his position to the extent of allowing, as the Testimony says, ‘an evil spirit to cast drops of

3

gall into his words,’ and, forgetting the warning given him of God, ‘he pressed his brethren into hard places.’ When mildly reproved by the president of the General Conference for his course, and counseled to make the matter right with the brethren by apology, he resigned from the Committee.” — A Statement Refuting Charges Made by A. T. Jones Against the Spirit of Prophecy and the Plan of Organization of the Seventh-day Adventist Denomination, pp. 15, 16 (96-page pamphlet published in May, 1906, by the General Conference Committee).

At the General Conference session held in Battle Creek in April, 1901, as presented in chapters 17 and 18, the work of the church was reorganized, which reorganization resulted in the drawing in of a number of men to carry responsibilities. The field was divided into union conferences and provision was made for the organization of General Conference departments. Jones was again elected to the General Conference Committee, a position which he held until the session of 1905. In the summer of 1901 he was assigned to general work in the field, and attended certain camp meetings.

He took the position that we should have no “kings,” that is, we should not have conference presidents. This sentiment prevailed in the writing up of a new constitution at the General Conference of 1901. The remit was that a General Conference Committee was elected, with the committee authorized to appoint a chairman and other officers. A. T. Jones gave strong support to this plan. As he entered the field, attending camp meetings in 1901, his work took him to the West Coast, first to the Pacific Northwest and then to California. At the California Conference session in June he was elected president, and oddly enough, accepted the office. His harsh and domineering spirit soon cost him the confidence of many of those with whom he worked.

In the summer of 1903, at a time when affairs at the conference were most uncomfortable, he had an interview at Elmshaven with Ellen White, in which he told her that at the request of Dr. J. H. Kellogg he was planning to go to Battle Creek to teach Bible in the American Medical Missionary College. He hoped to be able to help Dr. Kellogg. She counseled him not to go. He promised Sister White that he would be guarded. She had been warned in vision that such a move on his part would lead to his downfall. She wrote of it thus:

“In vision I had seen him [A. T. Jones] under the influence of Dr. Kellogg. Fine threads were being woven around him, till he was being bound hand and foot, and his mind and his senses were becoming captivated.” — Letter 116, 1906.

Then, comments Ellen White, as she reported this to Brother Jones just before he went to Battle Creek, she could see “that his perceptions were becoming confused, and that he did not believe the warning given. The enemy works in a strange, wonderful way to influence human minds.” — Ibid. But Jones was sure that he would not fall away. He was a man with too much self-confidence.

In 1905, still a member of the General Conference Committee, he was invited to assist in meeting some religious liberty crises in Washington, D.C. But in two months he was back in Battle Creek. Ellen White endeavored to draw Elder Jones away from Battle Creek into evangelistic work, and this would doubtless have saved the man. On February 26, 1905, she wrote:

“Elder A. T. Jones, God calls upon you to go out into the cities, and give the last message of warning. Look to God for your support as you go. Call the people together, and you will certainly not work in vain. Let the truth go forth as a lamp that burneth. No longer confine your efforts to one place. Let there be held, right where you are, a solemn convocation. Let there be a renunciation of self to God. Hold fast the beginning of your faith unto the end. Let not your faith waver. Go forth in faith....

“There are those who have never heard the message of mercy and warning. In the name of

4

the Lord I say, Delay not. Proclaim the gospel message in the cities of America. Scatter the seeds of truth throughout these cities. Take with you reliable men, who with pen and voice will act their part in proclaiming the message of present truth to the world.” — Letter 187, 1905.

But he continued in Battle Creek under influences he was no match for. He was soon in bitter opposition to his brethren and to the Spirit of prophecy. He issued a number of tracts and pamphlets in defending his course.

Continued

[John317]

Continued

What Happened to A.T. Jones

Quote:

A number of enlightening statements made by Ellen White in communications to him or in which reference is made to him between the time he joined Dr. Kellogg in Battle Creek until her last message to him in 1911 are most revealing. There unfolds the picture of the progressive steps in the experience of a man, self-confident, flaunting warning messages, and deliberately placing himself under influences that finally captivated him and led to his spiritual destruction. There follows in chronological order excerpts from several Ellen G. White documents:

July 23, 1904, “Inharmonious Note” at the Berrien Springs Meeting,—“The words and attitude of Brother—and Brother A. T. Jones at the Berrien Springs meeting [1904] struck an inharmonious note,—a note that was not inspired of God. It created a state of things which resulted in harm that they did not anticipate. It made the work of the meeting very much harder than it would otherwise have been. Had it not been for their injudicious course, the Berrien Springs Conference would have shown very different results.” — Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 2, p. 42.

December 29, 1905, Lost Spiritual Eyesight and Repudiated God’s Warnings.—“I send no more [testimonies to be read to the Battle Creek church] to A. T. Jones, for I have evidence that a work will have to be done for him before the Lord will accept his service. God has given him warnings which he has repudiated, and I am deeply grieved that he has so little spiritual eyesight.” — Letter 345, 1905 (written to G. W. Amadon, first elder of the Battle Creek church).

March 12, 1906, The Wrong Spirit and Demonstrations of Bitterness.—“You may be surprised to hear the words that you have heard from Elder A. T. Jones; but I am not at all surprised. This is the development of the man when the spirit that is counter to the Spirit of God comes upon him. In him as he is at the present time, you have a representation of a man who is not under the molding influence of the Spirit of God. The Lord accepts no such demonstrations of bitterness....

“Read in my books, Patriarchs and Prophets and Great Controversy, the story of the first great apostasy. History is being repeated and will be repeated. Read then, and understand.” — Letter 98, 1906.

April 2, 1906, Captivated, Deluded, and Deceived.—“During the General Conference at Takoma Park [May, 1905], Elder Jones’s case was again presented to me. After this, I had a long conversation with him in which I pointed out his danger. But he was self-confident, and declared to me that Dr. Kellogg believed the truth and the testimonies just as firmly as the rest of us believed and advocated them. In this conversation Elder Jones manifested that which had been revealed to me regarding him, that in the place of receiving the warnings he was full of self-confidence; that he had exalted himself, and in the place of being prepared to help Dr. Kellogg, he had united with him to disbelieve and distrust, and falsely to accuse the ministers and others who were trying to save Dr: Kellogg and other physicians who were in peril....

“I warned Elder Jones, but he felt that he was not in the least danger. But the fine threads have been woven about him, and he is now a man deluded and deceived. Though claiming to believe the testimonies, he does not believe them.” — Letter 116, 1906 (to Dr. David Paulson).

5

May 1, 1906, Chose Darkness Rather Than Light.—“I am sorry for A. T. Jones, who has been warned over and over again. Notwithstanding these warnings, he has allowed the enemy to fill his mind with thoughts of self-importance. Heed not his words, for he has rejected the plainest light and has chosen darkness instead. The Holy One hath given us messages clear and distinct, but some poor souls have been blinded by the falsehoods and the deceptive influences of satanic agencies, and have turned from truth and righteousness to follow these fallacies of satanic origin.” — Manuscript 39, 1906.

June 15, 1906, Voice Controlled by Dr. Kellogg.—“Dr. Kellogg controls the voice of Elder A. T. Jones, and will use him as his mouthpiece. My prayer is, O God, open Thou the blind eyes, that they may see; and the ears of the deaf that they may hear, and become humble.” — Letter 182, 1906.

Continued

[John317]

Continued

What Happened To A.T. Jones

Quote:

July 5, 1906, Grieved the Holy Spirit.—“Elder A. T. Jones, Dear Brother,—Again and again your case has been presented before me. I am now instructed to say to you, You have had a large knowledge of truth, and less, far less, spiritual understanding. When you were called to the important work at Washington, you had need of far more of the humble grace that becometh a Christian. Since the Berrien Springs meeting, your attitude and the attitude of several others has grieved the Spirit of God. You have been weighed in the balance and found wanting….

“Self-exaltation is your great danger. It causes you to swell to large proportions. You trust in your own wisdom, and that is often foolishness. Do you remember the counsel which I gave you in my letter of April, 1894? This was in answer to your letter expressing deep regret over the part you had taken in an unwise movement [Anna Phillips, see Selected Messages, book 2, pp. 85.95] and you appealed to me for instruction, that you might ever avoid such mistakes....

“When at the General Conference at Washington I had a conversation with you, but it seemed to have no influence upon you. You appeared to feel fully capable of managing yourself. After that conversation, scene after scene passed before me in the night season, and I was then instructed that you neither had been nor would be a help to Dr. Kellogg: for you were blind in regard to his dangers and his real standing. You cannot be a help to him; for you entirely misjudge his case. You consider the light given me of God regarding his position as of less value than your own judgment....

“Brother Jones, I have a message for you. In many respects you are a weak man. If I were to write out all that has been revealed to me of your weakness, and of the developments of your work that have not been in accordance with the course of a true Christian, the representation would not be pleasing. This may have to be done if you continue to justify yourself in a course of apostasy. Until your mind is cleared of the mist of perplexity, silence is eloquence on your part.

“I am so sorry that you are spoiling your record....

“Brother Jones, will you not earnestly seek the Lord, that in your life there may be a humbling of self, and an exaltation of the principles of righteousness? The success and prosperity of your work will depend upon your following strictly where Jesus leads the way. God would have you stand as a faithful watchman, laboring earnestly for souls ready to perish. If you will consent to be a worker together with God, you may manifest in earnest words and works, the gracious influence of the Holy Spirit. True repentance will bring newness of life.” — Letter 242, 1906.

July 27, 1906, A Revival of the First Great Apostasy.—“My heart was filled with sorrow because of the course that J. H. Kellogg is following. And A. T. Jones is following the same course and voicing the same sentiments, with a most determined spirit. When a realization of this comes over me, with such force, great sorrow fills my soul.

“I have before me such a revival of the first great apostasy in the heavenly courts, that I am bowed down with an agony that cannot be expressed. It is in Battle Creek that the warnings that are given are entirely disregarded.” — Letter 248. 1906 (to D. H. Kress).

6

August 1, 1906, Under Hypnotic Power.—“God showed me what He would do for Dr. Kellogg if he would take hold of His hand. But he wrenched himself away. At the Berrien Springs meetings [1904] the most precious offers were given him, and when he wrenched himself away I had rich agony of heart that it seemed as if soul and body were being rent asunder.

“I have seen Dr. Kellogg exerting a hypnotic influence upon persons, and at such times the arch deceiver was his helper. Those who sustain him are guilty with him. This blindness of understanding is a strange thing in our ranks. In regard to A. T. Jones, he has a theory of truth, which his books express and he dares not tear up his past experience, which has been published. But he virtually turns away from his former experience by his present course of action….

“Dr. Kellogg has had every advantage to make impressions on human minds, and he will improve this to the best of his ability in an effort to destroy confidence in the testimonies. Those associated with him who have upheld him, will have to answer before God for their course of action.” — Letter 258, 1906.

Continued

[John317]

Continued

What Happened to A.T. Jones

Quote:

September 30, 1907, Giving Heed to Doctrines of Devils.—“A. T. Jones, Dr. Kellogg, and Elder Tenney are all working under the same leadership. They are classing themselves with those of whom the apostle writes, ‘Some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils.’ In the case of A. T. Jones I can see the fulfillment of the warnings that were given me regarding him.” — Letter 306, 1907.

October 1, 1907, Now in Apostasy.—“I want to say to you, Brother and Sister Starr, that the time we have so long anticipated has come. A. T. Jones has come to the place where he voices the mind and faith of Dr. Kellogg. They have now taken a decided stand against the truth, and special efforts will be made to lead souls away. This apostasy has cost us dearly....Warning after warning has been given to these men, but they have set themselves first to deny the messages, and then to declare that they did not believe the testimonies. Their work against the truth has been as marked by deception as was the course of Canright. Many whose sympathies were with Dr. Kellogg have united with him, and have departed from the faith.” — Letter 316, 1907.

Nov. 11, 1908, Departed From the Faith.—“I must warn our people against laboring in any line in connection with A. T. Jones. He is one who has departed from the faith, and has given heed to seducing spirits. He knows not what manner of spirit he is of.” — Letter 330, 1908.

November 10, 1911, Confession and Rebaptism the Only Way Back.—“Elder A. T. Jones, I have given you instruction in straight, clear lines in regard to the perverting influence under which you have placed yourself. Your lips have uttered perverse things. You have denied the clear light of truth, and have linked up with strange elements. I gave you a correct statement in regard to your position, but you went on doing the very things the Lord had warned you not to do. It has been a strange course for one who has been enlightened by the Lord as you have been, but you have acted very much like a man who has lost his bearings. The question is, Do you think you can still hold your membership in the Seventh-day Adventist Church and go on hurting the influence of this people by the tracts that you publish? You have done a cruel work.

“I have warned you in regard to these things. I presented the case as the Lord presented it to me. When your blind eyes are opened, when your spiritual eyesight is restored by the heavenly anointing. you will see that you have a work to do for your own soul, and to undo what you have done to confirm others in unbelief. . . .

“We should rejoice greatly if you would be really converted. The Lord will not receive you as a faithful minister, to be trusted with His Rock, unless you throw your lot in with His people, to confirm them in the faith—not to rule them according to human ideas....

“If you wish to renew your covenant with God by confession and repentance and rebaptism, we shall rejoice with you. When you are converted, your self-sufficiency will disappear, and you will become meek and lowly in heart. When you see and repent of your mistakes, you will be a great blessing in helping others. The destroyer now takes advantage of your self-righteousness to weave into your experience his own ideas and theories. When you are really desirous of uniting with those from whom you have withdrawn yourself, the testimony will be borne that you looked up after you had stepped off the platform on which you had previously stood, and that hands were put beneath your arms, and you and Elder Waggoner were lifted once more on to the platform, standing there with shining countenances and uplifted hands. Has this time come?”—Letter 104, 1911.

In mid 1907, because of his warfare against the church and its leaders, the ministerial credentials of A. T. Jones were withdrawn. In July, 1908, he had an interview with Ellen White, which was not at all satisfactory.

He asked for a hearing at the General Conference session of 1909 held in Washington. The request was granted, and these meetings were held, at which he stated his case. Elder A. V. Olson, who was present, reports:

“Though not a delegate I was invited to attend the last meeting. Seated on the platform were Brethren C. W. Flaiz, acting chairman, and W. T. Bartlett, of England, acting secretary. At a table below the pulpit sat Brother A. G. Daniells, the General Conference president, at one end and A. T. Jones at the other end. Before final action was taken Brother Daniells arose and made a statement in which he said how much he personally had appreciated the fine, faithful, and efficient services that Brother Jones had rendered the cause during many years of association with us, how we had esteemed and loved him, and how our hearts had been filled with sorrow because of the misunderstanding and conflict that had come in to mar our sweet fellowship, and to separate him from his brethren.

“Then turning to Brother Jones. he made a very tender and touching appeal for him to forget the past and to come back to stand shoulder to shoulder with his brethren in the service of the Lord. He assured him that we all loved him and that we wanted him to go with us in the march toward the kingdom of God. Extending his hand across the table, he said, in a choking voice, ‘Come, Brother Jones, come.’ At this, Brother Jones arose, started to reach his hand across the table, only to draw it back. Several times, as Brother Daniells continued to plead, saying, with tears in his voice, ‘Come, Brother Jones, come!’ Brother Jones would hesitatingly reach out his hand part way across the table, and pull it back again. The last time he almost clasped the hand outstretched from the other side, then, suddenly, pulled it back, and cried out, ‘No! No!’ and sat down. That was one of the saddest scenes that I have ever witnessed. There were not many dry eyes in the Seminary chapel that afternoon. We all loved Brother Jones, and it grieved us to see him go out into the dark.” — E. G. White Estate Document File No. 53.

Shortly after this, by formal action, he was dropped from the membership roll of the Seventh-day Adventist Church of which for years he had been a member.

Subsequent to working with Dr. Kellogg, A. T. Jones entered upon the publication of The American Sentinel of Religious Liberty, a monthly journal which he issued over a period of several years. In November, 1915, he moved to Washington, D.C., and devoted his time to publishing this paper. He began to attend The People’s Church, a colored Seventh-day Adventist church that had broken away from the conference and was pastored by F. H. Seeney. On the invitation of the officers of this church, A. T. Jones participated in the work of the church and then joined the group. He was granted membership on April 15, 1916.

In February, 1923, Jones returned to Battle Creek for rest and treatment, and was making satisfactory progress until in early May, when he suffered a stroke of apoplexy that caused his death a few days later. Funeral service was conducted in Battle Creek at a funeral home by the Reverend G. E. Fifield. He was buried at Kalamazoo, Michigan. A brief obituary copied from the Battle Creek Enquirer appeared in the Review and Herald of June 28, 1923. Mrs. Jones ever remained true to the message.

[ClubV12]

James Whites death:

Yes, thats right, I was misleading even myself on the time frame of Sister White telling James White to "be quiet"! I would have to look up the exact circumstances surrounding that counsel to her husband. The principle was the SAME THING as occured before, up to and during the 1888 meetings. Don't argue in public, present a united front!

There was substantial discord well before and it was carried into the '88 meetings. On many issues, righteousness by faith was yet another point of contention. Strong willed men, who staked out immovable positions for the most part. Mix in trying to find a balanced approach on righteousness by faith vs the law and it was a battle.

[John317]

Ellen White didn't often tell James White what to do or what to say or write.

He was the man of the house and the head of the family, and Ellen White understood and honored this.

They actually separated for a while in the late 1870s because both felt the need of freedom to be their own person.

It was not easy being married to a prophetess. Can you imagine being told how God thinks of your mistakes? lol

They loved each other and kept in touch by mail, but they did sometimes have to be alone. They both felt that the other was pressuring them to do what they didn't think they should do.

[ClubV12]

Cheddar says,

"When Christians are young in the faith they do need a more structured lifestile.

People who have been in the the faith for 10, 20 or 30 years should be mature enough to make their own decisions without having to be told what to do."

Heres what I'm finding. Many (certainly not all) of those that have been in the faith (SDA in this case) for 10,20,30 years stopped growing 10,20,30 years ago. What they NEED is "structure", which the Testimonies provide, but who actually reads them? By and large they are a research tool, people know the quotes, they've heard them so many times they are numb to them. They roll their eyes, or become suspicious of a quote. It's gets "tiresome" trying to keep up with all the "thou shalt nots" and people "turn it off" because it's just to hard to do, they find some comfortable middle ground and there they sit, waiting, for something.

RLH mentioned that my plan (die broke, give as much of my wealth to the church as possible) is admirable. Well thats nice, but it's not the reason I posted it (to be nice). I'm single, I have one son, now grown and doing fine, he doesn't need a big inheritance. I have no debts, no obligations. Like Paul, there is no reason for ME not to be able to do this. It's not "noble" or even a "sacrafice", it's just the position I find myself in. I am blessed in that regard and the Lord has blessed me financially enough that I am humbled by it.

Likewise, whatever other counsel in the Testimonies I come across, "why not"? Why not ME, if not me, who? When? Somebody needs to do this. Should I wait, 10,20,30 years? NOT!!! I need to get to work, right away, to nip in the bud the "get lazy" syndrome. Stay busy enough I don't have time to think about any other options. I pray that 20 years from now I have much of the Testimonies memorized and incorporated into my life, through the grace of our Lord.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

Does Sister White tell you when to go to the bathroom too! LOL

"Every hour squandered over the toilet should reprove them for leaving the intellect to lie waste."

- Testimonies Vol.4, p.644.5

I think she had an outhouse..

But maybe that's why men take newspapers and magazines with them into the bathroom and stay there for an hour...they are heeding the EGW toilet papers...

[Gerr]

NRSV | Jn 8:43 Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot accept my word.

[LifeHiscost]

Both men unfortunately rejected the counsels of Ellen White.

Thank you, John317, for that info on Jones and Waggoner.

You also had added some commentary about the word love, as it appears in the Qur'an, after I had made a statement that the word was not found there. I was taking my position from a person, actually a good friend of mine, who has taught highschool for some 35 years. I haven't informed him of the different information you gave yet but it was a lesson to me to adopt no platform of thought as fact until solid verifiable evidence is obvious, no matter the position of importance held by the speaker.

The incident also verifies my daughter's opinion that when I speak, it is only my assumption, which, when it comes to the Word, that will have to be taken up with the Author. LoL

"As a result, we are no longer to be children, tossed here and there by waves and carried about by every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, by craftiness in deceitful scheming;"Ephesians 4:14 NASB

Personally, it is my "assumption", it is more often a person's lack of good research than an intent to deceive, although the enemy of souls doesn't care how he gets misinformation established.

"Stay alert! Watch out for your great enemy, the devil. He prowls around like a roaring lion, looking for someone to devour."1 Peter 5:8 NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

I have also heard there is indirect evidence for A.T. Jones too. It's on that site, but I can't find it right now.

Certainly, if we can be assured that God was and is perfectly capable of saving such as King Manasseh, He is able to redeem those of which we would often, more than likely, delegate to the ash heap.

"...Manasseh king of Judah hath done these abominations, and hath done wickedly above all that the Amorites did, which were before him, and hath made Judah also to sin with his idols:"2 Kings 21:11 KJV

" But while in deep distress, Manasseh sought the Lord his God and sincerely humbled himself before the God of his ancestors. And when he prayed, the Lord listened to him and was moved by his request. So the Lord brought Manasseh back to Jerusalem and to his kingdom. Then Manasseh finally realized that the Lord alone is God!"2 Chron 33:12-14

NLT

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

My new plan is to die broke, like Paul, invest wisely and carefully all that I can to the work that needs to be done.

Similar thoughts in my own mind. I have developed a personal friend who was here in our vicinity, from Africa, when sent an amount of money back to Africa where he is now with his family, he replied in an email, "Now we don't have to worry about what we will have to eat tomorrow."

As long as my wife and I have brothers and sisters who are going hungry, wherever they are in the world, we will continue to feel the need to find out how we can use what we have available, to encourage them that the God of love they worship is well able to motivate their brothers and sisters to do more than just pray for their wellbeing.

"Even now we go hungry and thirsty, and we don’t have enough clothes to keep warm."1 Corinthians 4:11 NLT

"and you say, “Good-bye and have a good day; stay warm and eat well”—but then you don’t give that person any food or clothing. What good does that do?"James 2:16 NLT

"Thus also faith by itself, if it does not have works, is dead.But someone will say, “You have faith, and I have works.” Show me your faith without your works, and I will show you my faith by my works."James 2:17,18 NKJV

A cutting truth that often brings to the fore the term, legalist. If we must wear the garb, legalist, in order to help our brother, then so-be-it.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

One big thing I took away from that history, is that men, men of God, can hold distinctly different views on a topic and still be in unity. In many cases both views hold some truth, with no clear answer at the time. Unity trumps all in such a case, something we here on this forum would be well advised to consider carefully.

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

She was having enough trouble with Uriah Smith and some others already.

Kind of like the life of a moderator,,, now that I think about it.

LoL

God blesses!

[LifeHiscost]

You post too much miz3.

As my daughter would say, that's just your assumption.

God blesses!

[Lysimachus]

LifeHiscost,

I was joking of course that miz3 posts too much. I was just trying to make a point, based on our previous conversations.

I am convinced, however, that he does not take out time to absorb what is being said to him.

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHiscost,

I was joking of course that miz3 posts too much. I was just trying to make a point, based on our previous conversations.

I am convinced, however, that he does not take out time to absorb what is being said to him.

Thanks for clarifying. By the amount indicating your posts, it's a little late to say welcome. Nevertheless, welcome aboard!!

God blesses!

[Overaged]

Yes, Gerry, the light has ever so slowly been dawning, but so dimly as I've been reading various writings of hers and her contemporaries. She cared so much for people, often rising in the middle of the night and praying for them.

I was especially impressed how she labored for her friends til they accepted the Lord. Imagine being so Christlike-tho absolutely dependent on the Lord-that the Lord could work through us to win souls for Him.

Another thought that impressed me was when her husband remarked about her gift of exhortation, being able to bring meeting-houses of people to their knees in tears and surrender to the Lord.

What I would give to have been able to hear her since we read her writings according to our own personality, or that of others, all too often.

[skyblue888]

“Elder A. T. Jones, God calls upon you to go out into the cities, and give the last message of warning. Look to God for your support as you go. Call the people together, and you will certainly not work in vain. Let the truth go forth as a lamp that burneth. No longer confine your efforts to one place. Let there be held, right where you are, a solemn convocation. Let there be a renunciation of self to God. Hold fast the beginning of your faith unto the end. Let not your faith waver. Go forth in faith.... There are those who have never heard the message of mercy and warning. In the name of the Lord I say, Delay not. Proclaim the gospel message in the cities of America. Scatter the seeds of truth throughout these cities. Take with you reliable men, who with pen and voice will act their part in proclaiming the message of present truth to the world.” — Letter 187, 1905.

There is something wrong with this picture!

How could this "testimony" come from the Lord to brother Jones since before going to the world with the last message of mercy and warning the church would first have to receive that message of mercy and warning herself and then go to the world with that same message. But we know that that message had been rejected ever since the Minneapolis meeting. In 1907 the Lord declared that "the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." T.M.481.

The message of mercy and warning was first proclaimed to the advent people because they were in the Laodicean condition. This message of mercy and warning came to the church between 1888 and 1903. It was not heeded. In 1901 the Lord declared that we would have to remain in this world many more years because of insubordination. See Evangelism,696. In April of 1903 she had sounded this warning, "Our position in the world is not what it should be." Testimonies, Vol.8,247.

Before the message is to go to the world in demonstration and power of the Holy Spirit, it must be proclaimed to the professed church of Christ for the last time. If that message is resisted again and the bearers of the message persecuted and forced out of the church, these will then go to the world and the message will swell to a loud cry and when the mission of the Gospel is completed, the great final test will accomplish the final separation between the good and the evil and their destiny will be forever fixed.

For the Lord to tell brother Jones in 1905 to go to the cities of the world to proclaim his message could only mean that the adventist church at that time had either accepted the latter rain messsage or sealed her rejection of God's mercy by rejecting the last call and would have been left behind.

She had rejected the latter rain message but it was only the first call. This was the rejection of the first call of the parable of Matt.22. The second and last call of the parable to the professed church was still to come. We are living in the time of that second and final call today. The third call of the parable is the giving of the loud cry to the world after the second call to the professed church will have been rejected.

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[skyblue888]

For those of you have not yet read "An Appeal For Gospel Order" by A.T. Jones, and who wish to have an accurate description of what really took place between 1888 and 1909, this appeal by brother Jones is a must. It can be found in What Seventh-day Adventist Believe on page 2.

sky

[Lysimachus]

I agree 100% Skyblue that the messages of Waggoner and Jones were of the Lord. They were like the Caleb and Joshua, and Ellen White was like the modern Moses. She ended up having to die before we enter the promised land.

What I disagree, however, is with your leanings toward the Living Temple. Her endorsements of Waggoner and Jones were not endorsements of Kellogg or the Living Temple in any way shape or form.

Waggoner and Jones were men of God. And it is their message, before they apostatized, that we must accept. Ellen White was very clear in some places that they would have been in heaven shortly after 1888 had they accepted the messages of Waggoner and Jones. She said their messages (concerning Christ's infinite ransom for the whole human race, and righteousness/justification by faith) was the "Third Angel's Message in verity" (1SM 372).

Although Jones was already heavily influenced by pantheism in 1905, Ellen White was still trying to encourage him. He was going through struggles, and Ellen White wanted to see him break loose from the doubts he was cherishing. Sadly, for Waggoner and Jones, breaking free from these heresies never did fully materialize, at least in the open.

With all this said, I highly recommend everyone to read the writings of Jones and Waggoner--those writings before they fully apostatized of course. They were the best of the best, and the most brilliant Adventist apologists. Waggoner's "Everlasting Covenant" book is quite a gem. He uses the very best arguments to reveal how God's law is intrinsically tied to the Everlasting Covenant.

[John317]

Elder A. T. Jones, God calls upon you to go out into the cities, and give the last message of warning. Look to God for your support as you go. Call the people together, and you will certainly not work in vain. Let the truth go forth as a lamp that burneth. No longer confine your efforts to one place. Let there be held, right where you are, a solemn convocation. Let there be a renunciation of self to God. Hold fast the beginning of your faith unto the end. Let not your faith waver. Go forth in faith.... There are those who have never heard the message of mercy and warning. In the name of the Lord I say, Delay not. Proclaim the gospel message in the cities of America. Scatter the seeds of truth throughout these cities. Take with you reliable men, who with pen and voice will act their part in proclaiming the message of present truth to the world. Letter 187, 1905.

There is something wrong with this picture!

How could this "testimony" come from the Lord to brother Jones since before going to the world with the last message of mercy and warning the church would first have to receive that message of mercy and warning herself and then go to the world with that same message. But we know that that message had been rejected ever since the Minneapolis meeting. In 1907 the Lord declared that "the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men." T.M.481.

....For the Lord to tell brother Jones in 1905 to go to the cities of the world to proclaim his message could only mean that the adventist church at that time had either accepted the latter rain messsage or sealed her rejection of God's mercy by rejecting the last call and would have been left behind.

The message that Ellen White sent to A.T. Jones in 1905 was for the purpose of getting him out where he would proclaim the gospel and away from the evil influences of Dr. Kellogg. She had warned A.T. Jones and everyone else about those influences many times.

It's a mistake to conclude that Ellen White's message to Brother Jones was due to the two reasons you list above. The church at that time had neither accepted the Latter Rain message nor sealed her rejection of God's mercy.

Ellen White's testimonies regarding Kellogg and Jones in 1905 and afterwards were legitimate counsels from God's prophet.

[skyblue888]

John wrote, The church at that time had neither accepted the Latter Rain message nor sealed her rejection of God's mercy.

____________

That's my point exactly as I stated it in my post. That being the case, how could the Lord send a testimony to brother Jones telling him to go to the world with His message then? The church first has to receive the message if it is going to go to the world unless she has rejected the last call. Then she would be left behind and the bearers of the message and their converts would be forced to go to the world with their message and it would swell into the loud cry.

Lysimachus, one thing you can be sure of is that I don't have any leanings toward pantheism but I embrace the truth that God's throne is in Heaven, yet by His Spirit He is everywhere present, working in and through all, moving in all things according to His will, as the prophet has clearly stated in Education,132,14,99,100, and Ministry of Healing,416,397;1 S.M.293,-295; Testimonies, Vol.8,325,326 and many other places.

It cannot be denied that there was a power struggle on the part of the General Conference in regard to who should be in charge of the Battle Creek Sanitarium. "They were determined to bring the individuals (kellogg included) to their terms. They would rule or ruin." T.M.360.

"The high-handed power that has been developed as though position has made men gods makes me afraid and ought to cause fear. It is a curse wherever and by whomsoever it is exercised. This lording it over God's heritage will create such a disgust of man's jurisdiction that a state of insubordination will result." T.M.361.

"Organizations, institutions, unless kept by the power of God, will work under Satan's dictation to bring men under the control of men; and fraud and guile will bear the semblance of zeal for truth and for the advancement of the kingdom of God." T.M.366.

In the future I will leave Kellogg out of the discussion. I am convinced that we will not know the full truth until the books are opened during the thousand years. As to the relation between nature and nature's God, from now on, I will only teach the truth from the Scriptures and the Testimonies to the effect that "the divine Spirit is the presence and power of God," "the unseen, mighty Intelligence that is working in and through all." Education,14.

"The only key to the mysteries that surround us is to acknowledge in them all the presence and power of God." D.A.606.

"The divine Spirit whom the world's Redeemer promised to send, is the presence and power of God." Signs of the Times, Nov.23, 1891.

"In Him all things hold together." "In Him we live and move and have our being." "One God who is above all and through all and in all." "Do I not fill heaven and earth, saith the Lord." "Where shall I go from Your Spirit? Where shall I flee from Your presence?" Col.1:27; Acts 17:28; Eph.4:6,10; Jer.23:24; Psalm 139:7.

All this is made possible through the Spirit, the third Person of the Godhead.

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[miz3]

I agree 100% Skyblue that the messages of Waggoner and Jones were of the Lord. They were like the Caleb and Joshua, and Ellen White was like the modern Moses. She ended up having to die before we enter the promised land.

Since you are drawing so tight a parallel between Ellen White and Moses, please tell me what SIN did Ellen White commit that kept her from taking SDA into the Promised Land!?

Second given your strong parallel between Moses and Ellen White does that mean like Moses, Ellen White died and was raised by God and is now in heaven?