Moderators John317 Posted August 8, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: Lysimachus I agree 100% Skyblue that the messages of Waggoner and Jones were of the Lord. They were like the Caleb and Joshua, and Ellen White was like the modern Moses. She ended up having to die before we enter the promised land. Since you are drawing so tight a parallel between Ellen White and Moses, please tell me what SIN did Ellen White commit that kept her from taking SDA into the Promised Land!? The only parallel between those two is that they were both prophets of God raised up to communicate God's messages to the people. Both people were on the edges of the Promised Land. We're on the edges of the heavenly Promised Land. Originally Posted By: miz3 Second given your strong parallel between Moses and Ellen White does that mean like Moses, Ellen White died and was raised by God and is now in heaven? Of course not. She went to sleep in Jesus and is resting in her grave awaiting the second coming of Christ. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 8, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2011 John wrote, The church at that time had neither accepted the Latter Rain message nor sealed her rejection of God's mercy.____________ That's my point exactly as I stated it in my post. That being the case, how could the Lord send a testimony to brother Jones telling him to go to the world with His message then? The church first has to receive the message if it is going to go to the world unless she has rejected the last call. Then she would be left behind and the bearers of the message and their converts would be forced to go to the world with their message and it would swell into the loud cry. Ellen White's appeal to Jones doesn't call for us to conclude anything but that A.T. Jones was being called to preach the Three Angels' Messages to the world. The SDA church has evangelists doing that today. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Originally Posted By: skyblue888 John wrote, The church at that time had neither accepted the Latter Rain message nor sealed her rejection of God's mercy.____________ That's my point exactly as I stated it in my post. That being the case, how could the Lord send a testimony to brother Jones telling him to go to the world with His message then? The church first has to receive the message if it is going to go to the world unless she has rejected the last call. Then she would be left behind and the bearers of the message and their converts would be forced to go to the world with their message and it would swell into the loud cry. Ellen White's appeal to Jones doesn't call for us to conclude anything but that A.T. Jones was being called to preach the Three Angels' Messages to the world. The SDA church has evangelists doing that today. Jones and Waggoner were not sent to the world but to the lost sheep of Israel. They were the servants of God, including Mrs. White, with a message to the adventist church, just as the 12 and the 70 were sent by Jesus to the Jewish church before the crucifixion. This is represented by the first call of the parable of Matt.22 to the bidden ones. The call to the Gentiles--to the world--represented by the third call of the parable does not become present truth until after the rejection of the second call to the bidden ones. Hence the reason for questioning the source of that statement calling upon Jones to go to the world when the church had only rejected the first call of the parable. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddar Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The same controversy back in 1888 is the exact same controversy today. Jones and Waggoner were teaching that the ten commandments are not binding on new covenant Christians which is the same thing that the apostle Paul taught. Anyone who preaches a message that diminishes the Law will always be attacked. This also contradicted everything that Ellen White had been teaching for 40 years. In her defense I think she saw the 4th commandment as the only way to prove and defend the Sabbath. Waggoner in particular went out of his way to prove the Sabbath from the new covenant showing that it is the sign or seal of righteousness by faith and that Sunday worship will one day be the sign or seal of righteousness by works. The majority of Sabbath keepers today are at heart Sunday keepers. They think that the Law is the answer to all their problems. They refuse to believe that Jesus does it all and has paid it all. While many Sunday worshipers are at heart Sabbath keepers. They know the futility of any good work ever commending them to God. They are truly resting in Jesus Christ’s righteousness and not their own. The terrors of the last days will strip away all pretense. If we haven’t learned to walk by faith now in the good days – what will happen when the bad days come? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The law takes care of itself when we come to God trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour which means that the righteousness of Christ is brought into the life and it is made manifest in obedience to ALL the commandments of God. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2011 The same controversy back in 1888 is the exact same controversy today. Jones and Waggoner were teaching that the ten commandments are not binding on new covenant Christians which is the same thing that the apostle Paul taught. Anyone who preaches a message that diminishes the Law will always be attacked. This also contradicted everything that Ellen White had been teaching for 40 years. In her defense I think she saw the 4th commandment as the only way to prove and defend the Sabbath. Waggoner in particular went out of his way to prove the Sabbath from the new covenant showing that it is the sign or seal of righteousness by faith and that Sunday worship will one day be the sign or seal of righteousness by works. Jones and Waggoner never taught that the New Covenant, or faith in Christ, releases people from obedience to the moral law of God. Paul never taught such a thing, either. Paul taught that faith in Christ will cause people to obey God, not disobey Him. See Romans 6: 1,2 and 15. You're misunderstanding Waggoner and Jones if you believe their message contradicted everything Ellen White had been saying for over 40 years. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2011 The law takes care of itself when we come to God trusting wholly in the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour which means that the righteousness of Christ is brought into the life and it is made manifest in obedience to ALL the commandments of God. It won't take care of itself if people are taught, and believe the teaching, that faith releases them from obedience to God's Ten Commandments. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Of course not. "We have been at work on the law until we get as dry as the hills of Gilboa. Let the law take care of itself. Let us trust in the merits of Jesus Christ of Nazareth." E.G. White, 1888 Materials, Vol.2, p.557. This shows that as we trust in the merits of Christ for our acceptance with God, for pardon and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit, the law will be taken care of. In other words we will attain to righteousness, to obedience to the law. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClubV12 Posted August 9, 2011 Author Share Posted August 9, 2011 Indeed, Sister White declared the very message she HAD been preaching for 40 years WAS righteouness by faith. What was so exciting about Jones and Wagonner were that they were bringing that message to the people in a new way, with clear light on the subject. As I continue to read and study Sister Whites work I DO see the message, righteousness by faith, throughout her writings. In fact, I'm seeing it everywhere now! It's in our hymnals, it's in the bible, I hear it in sermons when it's not even the main subject. It's God's love and grace, expressed in a thousand ways. When properly understood and accepted, it doesn't do away with the law, it changes the heart into a song of "Oh how I LOVE thy law". It's a heart thing, I'm not sure reading book after book on the subject will necessarily bring the message home in a personal way. You have to experience it, accept it, believe it, love it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2011 Jones and Waggoner were not sent to the world but to the lost sheep of Israel. They were the servants of God, including Mrs. White, with a message to the adventist church, just as the 12 and the 70 were sent by Jesus to the Jewish church before the crucifixion. This is represented by the first call of the parable of Matt.22 to the bidden ones. The call to the Gentiles--to the world--represented by the third call of the parable does not become present truth until after the rejection of the second call to the bidden ones. Hence the reason for questioning the source of that statement calling upon Jones to go to the world when the church had only rejected the first call of the parable. Here was Ellen White's appeal to Jones in 1905: Quote: Elder A. T. Jones, God calls upon you to go out into the cities, and give the last message of warning. Look to God for your support as you go. Call the people together, and you will certainly not work in vain. Let the truth go forth as a lamp that burneth. No longer confine your efforts to one place. Let there be held, right where you are, a solemn convocation. Let there be a renunciation of self to God. Hold fast the beginning of your faith unto the end. Let not your faith waver. Go forth in faith.... There are those who have never heard the message of mercy and warning. In the name of the Lord I say, Delay not. Proclaim the gospel message in the cities of America. Scatter the seeds of truth throughout these cities. Take with you reliable men, who with pen and voice will act their part in proclaiming the message of present truth to the world. Letter 187, 1905. What was Jones to do? 1) Go out into the cities and give the last message of warning. 2) Proclaim the gospel messages in the cities of America. 3) Scatter the seeds of truth throughout these cites. 4) Proclaim the message of present truth to the world. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wayfinder Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 The Ten Commandments are the agreement between God and His people. God is only the God of those who promise to obey His commandments. Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden because of disobedience, and only obedience will return us to the paradise of God. The Son of God never said "I have done it for you and all you need to do is believe in Me and accept Me as your personal Savior, no, He said this. Revelation 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame , and am set downwith my Father in his throne. He says, to him who overcomes... as I overcame. And what was that? Matthew 7:21 NAS "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. John 8:28 NAS So Jesus said, "When you lift up the Son of Man, then you will know that I am He, and I do nothing on My own initiative, but I speak these things as the Father taught Me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 On account of the merits of the great sacrifice that was made for us, "The same voice that spoke into space the worlds on high, which said to the earth, 'Bring forth grass,' speaks to us in the words of God's law! The law of God (not merely written with ink but proceeding out of His mouth) is not a hard, lifeless decree, which weak mortals are to strive in vain to keep, while God watches them with a stern eye ready to taunt and punish them for failure! No. That word which says to us, 'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and your neighbor as yourself,' sheds that love abroad in our hearts, just as it brings forth the fruit in the plant, if we are willing to be as submissive to the Voice of God as is the inanimate creation. Then well might we sing: How gentle God's commands! How kind his precepts are!" E.G. Waggoner, The Gospel in Creation, p.104. Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2011 Good quote, sky. Very true. :-) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2011 I know what you're saying, and I agree with some of it, but I can't agree with you that God is only the God of those who promise to obey His Commandments. Jesus never taught this. The New Covenant doesn't depend on people's promises at all. The New Covenant-- the Gospel-- depends only upon the promises of God and Christ. Their promises or agreement was that Christ would come and die as an atoning sacrifice for sins. It was unconditional. I didn't do anything-- or promise anything-- for Christ to die for me. Their promise is also to write the law on our hearts and minds instead of on tablets of stone. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheddar Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Jones and Waggoner never taught that the New Covenant, or faith in Christ, releases people from obedience to the moral law of God. Paul never taught such a thing, either. Paul taught that faith in Christ will cause people to obey God, not disobey Him. See Romans 6: 1,2 and 15. You're misunderstanding Waggoner and Jones if you believe their message contradicted everything Ellen White had been saying for over 40 years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2011 Are you really saying that the apostle Paul was a defender of the ten commandments? Why were all the Jews trying to stone him? That must have been the apostle Paul from a parallel universe. Paul's point was that we can't earn salvation by works of the law. Works of law are those done in order to earn merit with God. Do you agree that Paul wasn't teaching against works of faith? The Bible is clear that God's will is His law. Heb. 10:7-- Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God. Jesus Christ came to do God's will. Therefore what was in Christ's heart? Ps. 40:7,8-- Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me, I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law [is] within my heart. Under the New Covenant, God writes this same law in our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit so that we also may do God's will. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2011 Are you really saying that the apostle Paul was a defender of the ten commandments? Why were all the Jews trying to stone him? That must have been the apostle Paul from a parallel universe. They were trying to stone Paul because he taught that the gospel was for the Gentiles and that they didn't need to be circumcised or become a Jew before God would accept them. They hated him because he taught that God didn't love Jews more than He loves us Gentiles. Many of the Jews of that time loved to think that they earned merit with God by their obedience to law. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2011 Have you read A.T. Jones very excellent book, The Consecrated Way? You can access this book online. Especially read the chapter, "Transgression and the Abomination of Desolation." Also see Jones' Studies in Galatians. He makes it abundantly clear in that book that "righteousness by faith" occurs when a person does righteous acts because of one's trust in God. Ibid., pages 144, 145. E.J. Waggoner said that "being justified by faith, then, is simply being made a doer of the law by faith." ("What Does It Mean to be Justified," Signs of the Times, May 1, 1893) Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Yes, that's exactly right, sky. :-) Added later: Hey, sky, I sent you a PM about a big mistake I just made. I intended to click on "quick quote" but instead I clicked on "edit". Please forgive me for deleting your words. I apologize profusely. Can you please post your message again? "John3:17" Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I was wondering where it had gone!!! But that's okay. It went something like: E.J. Waggoner said that "being justified by faith, then, is simply being made a doer of the law by faith." ("What Does It Mean to be Justified," Signs of the Times, May 1, 1893) Amen. And it is a continuous process accomplished by the Holy Spirit as we daily appropriate to ourselves the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. The Holy Spirit brings the righteousness of Christ into our lives working in us both to will and to do God's pleasure and God's good pleasure is expressed in the precepts of His holy law. Something like that. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Have you read A.T. Jones very excellent book, The Consecrated Way? You can access this book online. Especially read the chapter, "Transgression and the Abomination of Desolation." Also see Jones' Studies in Galatians. He makes it abundantly clear in that book that "righteousness by faith" occurs when a person does righteous acts because of one's trust in God. Ibid., pages 144, 145. E.J. Waggoner said that "being justified by faith, then, is simply being made a doer of the law by faith." ("What Does It Mean to be Justified," Signs of the Times, May 1, 1893) These two books are excellent. They are a must for all who profess to believe present truth. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just* Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 I was wondering where it had gone!!! But that's okay. It went something like: E.J. Waggoner said that "being justified by faith, then, is simply being made a doer of the law by faith." ("What Does It Mean to be Justified," Signs of the Times, May 1, 1893) Amen. And it is a continuous process accomplished by the Holy Spirit as we daily appropriate to ourselves the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour. The Holy Spirit brings the righteousness of Christ into our lives working in us both to will and to do God's pleasure and God's good pleasure is expressed in the precepts of His holy law. Something like that. sky Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 9, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 9, 2011 Oh yes. And this is what I had planned to do before, but having just woke up, I wasn't quite awake, so I made that terrible boo-boo. lol Wow-- I gotta be more careful when I get up in the morning. I go to bed about 2 am and get up about 7 am. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 Quote: "By the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." There is no exception here. As the condemnation came upon all, so the justification comes upon all. Christ has tasted death for every man. He has given himself for all. Nay, he has given himself to every man. The free gift has come upon all. The fact that it is a free gift is evidence that there is no exception. If it came upon only those who have some special qualification, then it would not be a free gift. It is a fact, therefore, plainly stated in the Bible, that the gift of righteousness and life in Christ has come to every man on earth. There is not the slightest reason why every man that has ever lived should not be saved unto eternal life, except that they would not have it. So many spurn the gift offered so freely." WAGGONER ON ROMANS "Consequently, just as the result of one trespass was condemnation for all men, so also the result of one act of righteousness was justification that brings life for all men. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous." Romans 5:18-19. Waggoner is correct! God JUSTIFIED EVERY HUMAN! The human did not have to consent or "choose" because God through Jesus Christ JUSTIFIED EVERY HUMAN BASED ON GOD'S ACTION ONLY! NO HUMAN ACTION WAS(IS) EVER REQUIRED! NO HUMAN CONSENT! NO HUMAN CHOICE! JUST GOD'S FIAT! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skyblue888 Posted August 9, 2011 Share Posted August 9, 2011 It says "Many will be made righteous" not are made righteous. We will be made righteous if we look to Jesus and appropriate His merits to ourselves, by claiming them. That is faith, even living faith. This is the faith that works by love to purify the soul. Otherwise it cannot be said that we are justified or sanctified. sky Quote "The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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