BobRyan Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 But we must be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater and think that "listening" for the leading of the Spirit is "spiritualism". We must become so sensitive to His leading that the slightest touch moves us. That requires focus and inward attention. Many Christians fear this, because they do not understand it, sadly. God says "be still and know that I am God" Ellen White says "the silence of the soul makes more distinct the voice of God". But in DA we see just how imagination and silence is being promoted in these inspired sources. There "in imagination we see Christ crucified" speaking of taking the bible scenes of Christ's work in our behalf and in imagination focused on the work of Christ for us as described (as directed for us by our Spiritual Director - the Holy Spirit) in the Bible. Very different from "empty your mind- go to a place of total silence" of the eastern mystic. Not knowing the difference is "a bad thing". in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II But we must be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater and think that "listening" for the leading of the Spirit is "spiritualism". We must become so sensitive to His leading that the slightest touch moves us. That requires focus and inward attention. Many Christians fear this, because they do not understand it, sadly. God says "be still and know that I am God" Ellen White says "the silence of the soul makes more distinct the voice of God". But in DA we see just how imagination and silence is being promoted in these inspired sources. There "in imagination we see Christ crucified" speaking of taking the bible scenes of Christ's work in our behalf and in imagination focused on the work of Christ for us as described (as directed for us by our Spiritual Director - the Holy Spirit) in the Bible. Very different from "empty your mind- go to a place of total silence" of the eastern mystic. Not knowing the difference is "a bad thing". in Christ, Bob But the Christian experience, is: Shut up and listen... :-) That could get thrown out in our haste to protect ourselves. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 When you read the Bible you will find God directing you and speaking to you on various subjects as you read. When you mediate on a given Bible text or chapter you will experience the same thing. When you ask God in prayer questions like "Who should I be praying for? What sins should I be confessing, who should I reach out to today?, what Bible subject should I study today" etc you will find your mind directed to people, to topics, to sins or problems that you need to remember or be aware of. The devil cannot use any of that. For his purposes he needs you to shut out the Holy Spirit - to empty your mind... to try to think "no thoughts" by simply repeating a stupid mantra or trying some other empty-head tactic. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 When you read the Bible you will find God directing you and speaking to you on various subjects as you read. When you mediate on a given Bible text or chapter you will experience the same thing. When you ask God in prayer questions like "Who should I be praying for? What sins should I be confessing, who should I reach out to today?, what Bible subject should I study today" etc you will find your mind directed to people, to topics, to sins or problems that you need to remember or be aware of. The devil cannot use any of that. For his purposes he needs you to shut out the Holy Spirit - to empty your mind... to try to think "no thoughts" by simply repeating a stupid mantra or trying some other empty-head tactic. in Christ, Bob The Holy Spirit resides in the heart, the still small voice of God can be heard there Bob... The devil however, once Christ is in the heart, can only appeal to the mind... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted August 7, 2011 Author Share Posted August 7, 2011 Once we shut out the holy spirit -- no matter if it is in a misguided exercise in "silence", we have turned away from the only defense we have against the superior force of evil that is in control of earth. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 How can you shut out, that which is dwelling within? But I agree, if the purpose of meditation is to "empty" rather than "focus" the mind, then we should be very careful. The "will" should never be put to oneside. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators lazarus Posted August 7, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 7, 2011 The challenge with discussing the subject is that often people take errors that may or may exist and use those challenges as the benchmark by which to refute and idea or approach. This is why I always as for an example of the error that some seek to highlight as the problem with this or that movement/idea. I have found examples few and far between when it comes to a discussion about SF. I watched a sermon by Vince Gill attacking SF. It was full or errors, inaccuracies and half truths. Quite sad really. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted August 7, 2011 Share Posted August 7, 2011 Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo At any rate, we are to keep our eyes and ears open, because the devil is out to deceive, if it were possible, even the very elect. I wish people would write that in their hearts and minds.. And with regard to what Ellen White wrote, please apply "“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things.” – Philippians 4:8 KJV"... I'm worried about the state of the SDA church.. That is a vital thing to say! SDA Church is in crisis and few there be that know it! Even fewer know where the danger actually exists! That is more frightening! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Since this is such a major crisis in God's "Last Day Church (SDA)" why does the Bible not predict these very events and dangers to His Last Day People? SDA claim that the Books of Daniel and Revelation predict with stunning preciseness their existence as the "Last Day Church" why wouldn't God's cherished apple of His eye be forewarned: 1. That these two dangers (alpha and omega) were coming? and 2. Just exactly what those two dangers actually were? Originally Posted By: Revelation 16:13-15 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. This text says nothing about "alpha and omega" apostasy. The devil has been spewing his "unclean spirits" since the fall of Adam! You are not citing something new. This text has nothing to do with "alpha and omega"! Typical SDA misapplication of the Bible! Like you can just cite anything, anything at all, and assert that it means "such and such" even though the text has nothing about "such and such" in it! Come on "hch" you can surely do better than this? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 What shocks me is that the debate with Kellogg is still going on in this Church. I thought that was a settled issue LONG ago, but I come into this forum only to discover that people are STILL sympathizing with Kellogg? There are so many other problems to worry about, and what a shame it is we have to go back to square 1 to help people see ALL OVER AGAIN that Kellogg's Living Temple teachings were of the Devil. How sad! This should be a closed case! It can never be case closed as long as the SDA Church does NOT own up to its evil handling by the "brethren" in their quest for power, money, and control! Their greed and covetousness like King Ahab of old continues to breed and live in the SDA Church as we speak! God cannot bless us (SDA) until we confess and make right the wrongs of the past! God will allow us to continue to be haunted by guilt from our sins! This is nothing more than the spirit of Laodicea! We think we are OK! We think God is blessing us! However, we are poor, naked and blind! The evidence is all over this forum! (general statement no names are mentioned) also this is not Stan's fault! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: BobRyan Foster has at times dressed up this form of eastern mysticism quite well on the surface. But the history of this system of teaching is very enlightening and the fact that it deals with the "centering prayer" of silence (also called "Contemplative prayer") concept of emptying the mind so as to let the spirits speak to you - is the direct opposite of a focus on the Word of God so as to let THE Spirit of God speak. The "spiritual director" concept appears to replace the role of the Holy Spirit in SF. The track of error lies close along side the track of truth in that case. No question that SF is a great evil. in Christ, Bob There is also the prayer life in the inner sanctuary of the believer Bob. Where the Spirit moves and we listen and follow. Sometimes just "listening" to the moving of the Spirit, which requires an inward focus on the Holy Spirits leading and guidance in the heart, (after all, He dwells in the heart), is a long established Christian practice. With in my mind, strong scriptural support. When the Spirit speaks, He often directs the mind to the scriptures. But we must be careful not to throw out the baby with the bathwater and think that "listening" for the leading of the Spirit is "spiritualism". We must become so sensitive to His leading that the slightest touch moves us. That requires focus and inward attention. Many Christians fear this, because they do not understand it, sadly. It boils down to knowing whose voice is speaking to you! Elijah knew the voice of God, so did Noah! Saul rejected the Voice of God! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: BobRyan When you read the Bible you will find God directing you and speaking to you on various subjects as you read. When you mediate on a given Bible text or chapter you will experience the same thing. When you ask God in prayer questions like "Who should I be praying for? What sins should I be confessing, who should I reach out to today?, what Bible subject should I study today" etc you will find your mind directed to people, to topics, to sins or problems that you need to remember or be aware of. The devil cannot use any of that. For his purposes he needs you to shut out the Holy Spirit - to empty your mind... to try to think "no thoughts" by simply repeating a stupid mantra or trying some other empty-head tactic. in Christ, Bob The Holy Spirit resides in the heart, the still small voice of God can be heard there Bob... The devil however, once Christ is in the heart, can only appeal to the mind... Is the "heart" different from the "mind"? If so where is this "heart"? (not the beating thing in your chest for those wise guys out there.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II The Holy Spirit resides in the heart, the still small voice of God can be heard there Bob... The devil however, once Christ is in the heart, can only appeal to the mind... Is the "heart" different from the "mind"? If so where is this "heart"? (not the beating thing in your chest for those wise guys out there.) Long discussion on this before miz3. But basically Jesus and Paul both differentiated between the "heart" and the "mind". It is only in the 20th century that we began to insist that "heart" means "mind"... But if we read the biblical context of "heart", it is distinct from mind. The mind is the seat of the thoughts. The heart is the seat of the emotions. The heart is also the specific dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, according to the bible: 2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. But this is off topic... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
miz3 Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: Twilight II The Holy Spirit resides in the heart, the still small voice of God can be heard there Bob... The devil however, once Christ is in the heart, can only appeal to the mind... Is the "heart" different from the "mind"? If so where is this "heart"? (not the beating thing in your chest for those wise guys out there.) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 How can you shut out, that which is dwelling within? But I agree, if the purpose of meditation is to "empty" rather than "focus" the mind, then we should be very careful. The "will" should never be put to oneside. Free will. God will allow us to turn away. Ellen White describes a case where the Holy Spirit came to her at the start of a vision and based on advice from others who attributed the work of the Holy Spirit to the devil - she refused. The Holy Spirit did not give her the vision as a result. We can be assured of our safety from the deceptive work of the evil one as long as we remain open to and claiming the armor of God in Eph 6 which includes the sword of the Spirit. But if we turn from God in a misguided "all is silence I will just be alone now" we are then open to a more powerful force than man - the kingdom of darkness. These are the kinds of fool's erands that SF teaching would send born-again Christians to perform. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobRyan Posted August 8, 2011 Author Share Posted August 8, 2011 The alpha of error and apostasy for the SDA church was claimed to be the book the "Living Temple" and it was rebuffed and terminated. An OMEGA is predicted to come for the SDA church. What will it be? Some say Spiritual Formation and some Evolution. There was an ALPHA of apostasy for all of mankind in Gen 3 - the deceptions for that apostasy are listed below. In Matt 24 Christ said that in the last days we would be plagued by deceptions so great that "if possible would deceive the very elect". In the problem of evolutionism - we have something that hits both mankind and SDAs. While this is a huge problems for SDAs - it is not the biggest problem mankind will face. There is a kind of "Alpha" of deception for all mankind that you find in Genesis 3 with Eve. There Satan employs four basic traps - sophistries - deceptions: evolutionism "you shall become like god" combined with spiritualism "you shall not surely die" combined with pantheism "in this apple is God qualties that you can have by eating it". combined with withcraft - communication with a demon. That was a problem for Eve. It is not unnreasonable to suggest that a combination of those four errors will take place at the end of time - only orders of magnitude greater signs and wonders so that if possible it would deceive the very elect. Someone recently mentioned the "Three uncleans spirits like frogs that go out to deceive the kings (rulers) of the whole earth" in Rev 16. I think that is speaking to the OMEGA for mankind - the builds on the 4 main branches of error that we saw in Genesis 3 - for the ALPHA deception put upon mankind. in Christ, Bob Quote John 8:32 - The Truth will make you free“The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin." COL 316. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 I read some very good posts here regarding the dangers of SF. I am also glad to see that there are those here who see the great evil of SF. The problem is that there are many, even church leaders, who don't see the danger and great evil of SF. Foster has at times dressed up this form of eastern mysticism quite well on the surface. But the history of this system of teaching is very enlightening and the fact that it deals with the "centering prayer" of silence (also called "Contemplative prayer") concept of emptying the mind so as to let the spirits speak to you - is the direct opposite of a focus on the Word of God so as to let THE Spirit of God speak. The "spiritual director" concept appears to replace the role of the Holy Spirit in SF. The track of error lies close along side the track of truth in that case. No question that SF is a great evil. in Christ, Bob Quote In His Love, Mercy & Grace Daryl http://www.maritime-sda-online.com https://www.pugwashsdachurch.org/media?page=1&sort_by=Date&is_ascending=0&search=&tags=&presenter= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators John317 Posted August 8, 2011 Moderators Share Posted August 8, 2011 I'm worried about the state of the SDA church.. Originally Posted By: miz3 SDA Church is in crisis and few there be that know it! Actually the SDA Church has been in crisis for quite a while now. It was in crisis in the 1880s, the early 1900s, in the 1950s, and again from about 1980 to the present time. It is no secret-- there have been several books written on it, and quite a few SDA speakers often talk about it publicly. Quote John 3:16-17 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hch Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: hch As I read the Spirit of Prophecy, it appears that those that are deceived believe that they are clinging to the truth that they see in the Spirit of Prophecy. Including material that I posted here from EGW, there are others that have posted similar material on this thread from EGW giving the same insight. I don't think anyone would claim that as long as a person believes in the Spirit of prophecy, they will never be deceived or hold any false beliefs. But when I made my previous remark, I was thinking of the following statements: Quote: Satan is . . . constantly pressing in the spurious--to lead away from the truth. The very last deception of Satan will be to make of none effect the testimony of the Spirit of God. "Where there is no vision, the people perish" (Proverbs 29:18). Satan will work ingeniously, in different ways and through different agencies, to unsettle the confidence of God's remnant people in the true testimony.-- Letter 12, 1890. {1SM 48.3} There will be a hatred kindled against the testimonies which is satanic. The workings of Satan will be to unsettle the faith of the churches in them, for this reason: Satan cannot have so clear a track to bring in his deceptions and bind up souls in his delusions if the warnings and reproofs and counsels of the Spirit of God are heeded.-- Letter 40, 1890. {1SM 48.4} We have no such investigation to make. In the book Living Temple there is presented the alpha of deadly heresies. The omega will follow, and will be received by those who are not willing to heed the warning God has given. {1SM 200.1} Notice she does not say the omega may follow or that it MAY BE received by those who aren't willing to heed the warning God has given. Thus it would appear that ministers or ANYONE that is deceived is failing to appropriate the message from Scripture or from the Spirit of Prophecy. They have a profession that is not being lived out in the life. Sort of like selected messages: select what pleases the fancy and let the others go to whom they will? Thanks for sharing Henry Quote His child Henry Bible student/Author https://www.loudcry101.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
olger Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: BobRyan But the history of this system of teaching is very enlightening and the fact that it deals with the "centering prayer" of silence (also called "Contemplative prayer") concept of emptying the mind so as to let the spirits speak to you. Give me an example of a Christian writer who suggests this. Quote: The "spiritual director" concept appears to replace the role of the Holy Spirit in SF. Again I would love to see the evidence for this, quotes, videos, articles, books etc. If you are sincere, why not read Rick Howard's book? He came from the center of this stuff into the Remnant Movement, and perhaps you could look at his experiences objectively. Ps. Kevin Kaiser is one answer for your first question. Richard Rohr is another. I don't know how you view Samir Selmanovic (christian or not..?). He would be much in favor of opening to the "spirits." Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rudywoofs (Pam) Posted August 8, 2011 Members Share Posted August 8, 2011 just FYI... Contemplative prayer empties the mind. If you let the control of your mind be free, it isn't the Holy Spirit that will enter. The HS is *invited.* It will be Satanic forces that will enter your mind....they don't need to be invited.. I wish this wasn't even an issue in the SDA church.. it is *so* deceptive.. and feels "good"...people are drawn to it without knowing what they're getting into.. It is disheartening to watch so many Christians being taken in by this.. but I don't know what to do about it... nothing, I guess...nobody wants to hear about being deceived... Quote Pam Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup. If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony. Funny, isn't it, how we accept Grace for ourselves and demand justice for others? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: miz3 Is the "heart" different from the "mind"? If so where is this "heart"? (not the beating thing in your chest for those wise guys out there.) Originally Posted By: twilight Long discussion on this before miz3. But basically Jesus and Paul both differentiated between the "heart" and the "mind". It is only in the 20th century that we began to insist that "heart" means "mind"... But if we read the biblical context of "heart", it is distinct from mind. The mind is the seat of the thoughts. The heart is the seat of the emotions. The heart is also the specific dwelling place of the Holy Spirit, according to the bible: 2Cr 1:22 Who hath also sealed us, and given the earnest of the Spirit in our hearts. Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father. But this is off topic... [/quote'] Not trying to create anything! Was just askin' so as to know where you are at on this! No problem my friend. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twilight II Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 Originally Posted By: rudywoofs I'm worried about the state of the SDA church.. Originally Posted By: miz3 SDA Church is in crisis and few there be that know it! Actually the SDA Church has been in crisis for quite a while now. It was in crisis in the 1880s, the early 1900s, in the 1950s, and again from about 1980 to the present time. It is no secret-- there have been several books written on it, and quite a few SDA speakers often talk about it publicly. :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daryl Posted August 8, 2011 Share Posted August 8, 2011 This is why it is seen as the Omega of Deception/Apostasy. just FYI... Contemplative prayer empties the mind. If you let the control of your mind be free, it isn't the Holy Spirit that will enter. The HS is *invited.* It will be Satanic forces that will enter your mind....they don't need to be invited.. I wish this wasn't even an issue in the SDA church.. it is *so* deceptive.. and feels "good"...people are drawn to it without knowing what they're getting into.. It is disheartening to watch so many Christians being taken in by this.. but I don't know what to do about it... nothing, I guess...nobody wants to hear about being deceived... Quote In His Love, Mercy & Grace Daryl http://www.maritime-sda-online.com https://www.pugwashsdachurch.org/media?page=1&sort_by=Date&is_ascending=0&search=&tags=&presenter= Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted August 8, 2011 Administrators Share Posted August 8, 2011 We are witnessing the omega of deceptions that is deceiving the very elect, right here, right now. It is a multi-headed beast, each head striving for dominance and attention. It is characterized by much confusion. The irony of it all makes it of a most startling nature. It is this fear driven obsession with identifying everything new, different or misunderstood idea as the omega of all heresies or apostasies that EGW spoke of. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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