Non-SDA Speakers banned?

[Kevin H]

I know that I've been saying some things, but this is a 2 sided issue where I have a strong feeling beacuse I see Adventism as a pastoral role to the other churches. Exodus 19:5-6 tells the theology of the remnant, why God has a special people: Now therfore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a particular pleasure unto me above all people: FOR ALL THE EARTH IS MINE: And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. Our role is our relation with others.

Also, thinking about how Mrs. White had become a guest in other churches, how I am hoping to set up an interdenominal ministry wanting to share how to be healthier physically, spiritually and mentally. I don't want us to just isolate to ourselves. The "former Adventist" groups don't want to listen to other views but are becoming an inbreeding of their misunderstandings.

Also, I don't think that the issue is just Adventist vs. Non-Adventist. Jim Fleming is a non-Adventist, yet he is a man of God who can help us understand our faith even better. So was Abraham Joshua Heshel. Outside of the Bible itself, the 3 most important books ever written for understanding the Bible are John Bright's "A History of Israel" Aharoni's "The Land of the Bible" and "The MacMillian Bible Atlas" I feel that this arbatary ban keeps out people like Fleming.

But then again we are living at a time of a lot of false prophets. People who have an us against them mentality. We are right and they are wrong. We Christians supporting conservative causes against the liberals instead of prophets that invite us to study our hearts. One of my professors pointed out that In classical Hebrew prophecy, from the 9th to 6th c. b.c. there was a constant problem for TRUE prophets. The so-called "peace prophets" that Jeremiah faced were a constant from the days of Elijah forward. THEY PROMISED THE TRIUMPH OF ISRAEL AND JUDAH THAT THE PAGAN NATIONS WOULD BE SUBDUED AND SERVE THE LORD. The true prophets consistently warned of the opposite, that in fact Israel and Judah -- God's peoples and nations -- were under the curses of Lv 26 and Dt 28. The TRUE prophets oversaw the destruction of their nations and peoples, whose DISASTERS WERE THE DIRECT RESULT OF LISTENING TO THE PEACE PROPHETS. Satan is no fool. All the delusions of the former ages are re-activated, ESPECIALLY THOSE THAT WORKED SO WELL, EVEN ON GOD'S ALLEGED PEOPLE.

I do worry that we might pick people due to how popular they are and I do think that the typical Adventist is not ready not to be beguiled by the peace prophets. Maybe there is some wisdom in letting our theologians strain out what is out there, to study say Fleming or Heshel and make specific Adventist applications. I believe that the misunderstanding that the church had of the shut door kept us safe from becoming either modernists/preterists and decreasing the influence of the fundamentalists/dispensationalists. I wish that one of my heroes, Elder Daniels, had made a similar decision to prevent our members from attending the Philadelphia 1919 Bible conference.

We are finding events coming together: the 7th period from Babylon being formed, Revelation's prophecies about the seas becoming inhabitable and being scorched by the sun. Another part of this is the false revival that if possible will deceive the very elect. God may be using this to decrease the effect on the coming false revival. But we need to be aware of issues being larger than just Adventist and non-Adventist.

[teresaq]

Yes, Kevin, good points I think. As Leroy Moore said, we tend to gravitate towards one set of texts/SoP or the other, disregarding the other set which would give balance to our view. But the other set do not fit with our view of how "it is", so we just ignore them.

In a similar vein I have found this statement below to be very true the very few years I have been on discussion groups. Encountering an off-shoot of the SDA offshoot Shepherd's Rod, to errors, attitudes and behavior, held by the "orthodox" has caused me to do some deep study-as well as serious prayer.

What I find interesting is the Shepherds Rod off-shoot person- and other unorthodox persons- had the exact same attitude and behavior as the "orthodox" of our church. The same spirit and tactics. Kinda scary.

Quote:

And there are many in the church who take it for granted that they understand what they believe, but, until controversy arises, they do not know their own weakness. When separated from those of like faith, and compelled to stand singly and alone to explain their belief, they will be surprised to see how confused are their ideas of what they had accepted as truth. Certain it is that there has been among us a departure from the living God, and a turning to men, putting human wisdom in place of divine. {CW 39.3}

God will arouse His people; if other means fail, heresies will come in among them, which will sift them, separating the chaff from the wheat. The Lord calls upon all who believe His word to awake out of sleep. Precious light has come, appropriate for this time. It is Bible truth, showing the perils that are right upon us. This light should lead us to a diligent study of the Scriptures, and a most critical examination of the positions which we hold. {CW 40.1}

[olger]

Somehow I get the impression that our General Conference president doesn't enjoy your full support in regard to his decisions about inviting non-SDA speakers to address the church. I don't want to jump to any hasty conclusions here, though.

Lol....!!!

Amen.

[olger]

[Guest]

Kind of mocking the true Sabbath isn't he?

[ClubV12]

Making it of no effect for sure...

Kevin, thanks for your last post, thats very encouraging. Sister Whites message wasn't limited to Adventists, it was for the edification of the world. May God bless your efforts to follow in that path.

[John317]

But whether T.D. Jakes knows it or not, he is breaking God's law, yet he believes it doesn't matter. That is the problem with inviting him and others who believe the same to preach in Seventh-day Adventist churches. It would be the same problem if we invite people who believe it is OK to steal or commit adultry or to break any part of God's moral law. They believe that faith in Christ releases the Christian from obedience to God's moral law.

This idea is already entering into the SDA church. Why should the SDA church encourage it?

The Devil would be thrilled if this concept became part of Seventh-day Adventist thinking.

[John317]

Meeting Unbelief and Divisive Teachings.--I have been shown that evil angels in the form of believers will work in our ranks to bring in a strong spirit of unbelief. Let not even this discourage you but bring a true heart to the help of the Lord against the powers of satanic agencies. These powers of evil will assemble in our meetings, not to receive a blessing, but to counterwork the influences of the Spirit of God. Take up no remark that they may make, but repeat the rich promises of God, which are yea and amen in Christ Jesus. We are never to catch up the words that human lips may speak to confirm the evil angels in their work, but we should repeat the words of Christ.-- Letter 46, 1909. {2MCP 504.505} {3 SM 410}

The apostles, as personated by these lying spirits, are made to contradict what they wrote at the dictation of the Holy Spirit when on earth. They deny the divine origin of the Bible, and thus tear away the foundation of the Christian's hope and put out the light that reveals the way to heaven. Satan is making the world believe that the Bible is a mere fiction, or at least a book suited to the infancy of the race, but now to be lightly regarded, or cast aside as obsolete. And to take the place of the word of God he holds out spiritual manifestations. Here is a channel wholly under his control; by this means he can make the world believe what he will. The Book that is to judge him and his followers he puts in the shade, just where he wants it; the Saviour of the world he makes to be no more than a common man. GC 557

The message must in no case be changed from that which has been. As has been foretold in the Scriptures, there will be seducing spirits and doctrines of devils in the midst of the church, and these evil influences will increase; but hold fast the beginning of your confidence firm unto the end. . . . {UL 168.6}

The perils of the last days are upon us.

Devote not precious time in trying to convince those who would change the truth of God into a lie.--Manuscript 61a, June 3, 1906, "God's Judgments on Cities." {UL 168.7}

In this time evil angels in the form of men will talk with those who know the truth. They will misinterpret and misconstrue the statements of the messengers of God. . . . {3SM 411.1}

Have Seventh-day Adventists forgotten the warning given in the sixth chapter of Ephesians? We are engaged in a warfare against the hosts of darkness. Unless we follow our Leader closely, Satan will obtain the victory over us.--Letter 140, 1903. {3SM 411.2}

Thus men came to Christ. And mingling with His hearers were [evil] angels in the form of men, making their suggestions, criticizing, misapplying, and misinterpreting the Saviour's words. . . . {3SM 410.6}

[Kevin H]

Kind of mocking the true Sabbath isn't he?

I'm sorry RLH but my perspective is that he is still wresteling with the issue. Who has come to the conclusion that the old faith vs. works argument is a cop-out and is still in the process of growth. There are people growing from there. There are scholars who are more open to the Sabbath. They understand Acts 15 as a more liberal application to gentiles but that God still expects Jewish people, even if they become Christians to keep the Sabbath. That God needs Sabbath keepers and that there is a message in the Sabbath even for those who are not Sabbath keepers.

Who can tell where this more openmindenness to the Sabbath is going to lead.

[John317]

Maybe he is still "wrestling" but it looks like he is close to being down on the mat with his shoulders pinned.

Let's be realistic. WE don't need preachers in our church who are "wrestling" with the question of whether to live in open violation of God's commandments. That's what we find in the churches of Babylon. Not only are they "wrestling" with the issue, but many of them are advocating disobeying God's commandments. If he wants to preach that in other churches, he is free to do it, but I believe the video shows that whoever disinvited T.D. Jakes to speak in an SDA church did the right thing.

We need to wake up and realize what it would mean to many people if they see and hear preachers in our churches telling us that it's OK to disobey God's law.

It would frankly encourage people to live in sin, and we already have many people who no longer take God's law seriously.

Ellen White wrote that it is better to die than sin. That's just the opposite of the popular preachers we hear today.

[Guest]

Maybe he is still "wrestling" but it looks like he is close to being down on the mat with his shoulders pinned.

Let's be realistic. WE don't need preachers in our church who are "wrestling" with the question of whether to live in open violation of God's commandments. That's what we find in the churches of Babylon. Not only are they "wrestling" with the issue, but many of them are advocating disobeying God's commandments. If he wants to preach that in other churches, he is free to do it, but I believe the video shows that whoever disinvited T.D. Jakes to speak in an SDA church did the right thing.

We need to wake up and realize what it would mean to many people if they see and hear preachers in our churches telling us that it's OK to disobey God's law.

It would frankly encourage people to live in sin, and we already have many people who no longer take God's law seriously.

Ellen White wrote that it is better to die than sin. That's just the opposite of the popular preachers we hear today.

Amen John!!!

[Guest]

There are people growing from there.

It doesn't matter whether he's growing towards it or not. He's still mocking it, plain and simple.

[whbae]

If I have a truth, an absolute truth in any thing be it a theology or scientific theory I do not need to listen to any one or study any thing else. If I have a doubt in what I believe then I have a room to open up my mind to listen to others.

Won

[fccool]

But whether T.D. Jakes knows it or not, he is breaking God's law, yet he believes it doesn't matter. That is the problem with inviting him and others who believe the same to preach in Seventh-day Adventist churches. It would be the same problem if we invite people who believe it is OK to steal or commit adultry or to break any part of God's moral law. They believe that faith in Christ releases the Christian from obedience to God's moral law.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

He married my wife and me.

Is that NOT illegal in the U.S.A?

Good one Stephanus

[phkrause]

lol That was cute! Sometimes we don't realize how a particular sentence, phrase, etc. will come across. Thanks for the laugh. But not at you, pk. I hope you know that.

[John317]

Whether you realize it or not, there are many Christians today who believe it is OK to break God's law, or willfully disobey the Ten Commandments.

It's the concept that faith in Christ releases us from obedience to the moral law of God. It's a popular belief today--- the doctrine that the Sabbath was nailed to the cross.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church was raised up by God at this time of history for the purpose of exalting the downtrodden law of God.

Daniel 7: 10-13 shows that the work of the little-horn power was to trample the truth and the law of God into the dust. AS SDAs, God has assigned us the work of reversing the evil done by that power.

The protestant churches in spiritual Babylon are working hand in hand with the little-horn power.

[phkrause]

Kind of mocking the true Sabbath isn't he?

Not sure I totally agree, but I do wonder if he realizes that even the RCC knows that Saturday is the Sabbath, OT and NT?

[Aliensanctuary]

It's just a great sign of disrespect towards God if we make excuses for breaking one or more of his commandments. Someday, God's laws will be programmed into our minds so we won't even be able to consider violating them.

Brother Jakes, if he reaches the Promised Land, will be keeping the Sabbath, and all of the other commandments of God, forever.

[Guest]

Someday, God's laws will be programmed into our minds so we won't even be able to consider violating them.

If all God wanted was the love of some hardwired robots, then we would be that already. If I take nothing else from my study of the Bible, it is the fact that, that is not what He wants.

Otherwise 6000 years of anguish and misery would teach the universe nothing about sin, if all God was going to do was make robots out of us anyway, and take away our power of choice. I don't think that will happen.

[teresaq]

Originally Posted By: Aliensanctuary

Someday, God's laws will be programmed into our minds so we won't even be able to consider violating them.

If all God wanted was the love of some hardwired robots, then we would be that already. If I take nothing else from my study of the Bible, it is the fact that, that is not what He wants.

Otherwise 6000 years of anguish and misery would teach the universe nothing about sin, if all God was going to do was make robots out of us anyway, and take away our power of choice. I don't think that will happen.

Its called

Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;)

2Co 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

[John317]

You honestly believe that this is a proper representation of his beliefs? That he does not believe that breaking the law matters?

Yes, I know many do believe that NT believers do not have to obey the Ten Commandments. It's a very common idea today, actually.

This is particularly believed in regard to the Sabbath day.

Did you notice he mentioned that he worships God on Saturday and on every day? Of course that has nothing to do with the Sabbath commandment, but I doubt the people in his congregration were aware of that.

[Guest]

Its called

[teresaq]

All in how one reads it I guess. :)

[Guest]

I guess. :)