How good is American health care?

[Pockey]

...

[bonnie]

I think you misunderstand the point, along with many other people who make similar arguments.

[Pockey]

The beast healthcare is prophylactics. When one man's sickness becomes other man's profit... you are asking for a lot of trouble.

This. Fccool you get it. If we could cut down the top 3 causes of mortality in the U.S. (1. heart disease 2. cancer 3. stroke and let's throw in diabetes), this would drastically reduce everyone's cost of health care. These are predominantly lifestyle diseases!

[bonnie]

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Some people don't need the best of the best. They need good enough, and efficient and affordable. But, since medical industry words directly with Insurance industry... they can justify charging you 100,000 for some procedures, where in realities of free market economy such simply would not be the case.

So we should have bare bones hospitals as your example of the gym

Sorry,I want the hospital I need to have the medical equipment necessary to be able to take care of any emergency that comes along

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Most people who walk into the hospital don't just pay for the healthcare. They pay for collective overhead that's split between the patient visit prices to make sure that hospital as a business would cover these costs. Even with insurance, these bills end up being enormous. But, without insurance, these are mind boggling.

I don't know what world you live in but in mine,first and foremost a very expensive building is built,very costly equipment with more being added all the time,a wide array of medices on hand 24/7,all the medical personal,janitors,cooks etc that must be paid by the cost of health care.

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Also, you are sort of implying that doctors will see you without some sort of upfront cash payment, or insurance. In most cases, that's not the case. They may see you, but you will end up with a medical bill of 50k ++. In case of a terminal cancer patients, not only American healthcare can't help them with really low rates of treatment success, their families get stuck with insane medical bills to pick up, even when they do have insurance.

It's not a question of best healthcare. It's a question of accessible healthcare.

No I was not sort of implying.A friend of mine very recently passed away.She was diagnosed with cancer.She did not have the money and did not have insurance.She received surgery,chemo,radiation.

[Pockey]

Sorry,I want the hospital I need to have the medical equipment necessary to be able to take care of any emergency that comes along

I agree. I want the best available too, for everyone. Something has to change though. Either we should pay more taxes to cover it all, or Americans have to change their lifestyle. Or both. Unfortunately few people like to do either (self included).

[bonnie]

To be fair, I understand where you are coming from with these arguments. There is a fundamental difference in some instances. In Ottawa, the average wait in emergency room can extend into 10++ hours during peak crises time. But from my E.R. Experience, I've had better and more expedient treatment under socialized medicine than I did in US, while getting stuck with enormous ER bills.

[bonnie]

I'll give you another example.

My wife and I went to visit Ukraine last September. I had sinus infection that developed into a throat infection, and eventually, due to excessive throwing up on the plane (I think the first time I ever threw up on the plane) I've developed laryngitis.

My wife did not sit right, or for whatever reason noticed a swollen lymph node above her ear that really sent her into frenzy. She was really terrified. We scheduled a doctor visit. The doctor arrived a day later, to my parents house. He saw both of us. He checked my wives lymph node and said it was nothing to worry about, and was due to a neck strain and cold, he diagnosed my laryngitis and prescribed treatment for both of us.

How much it cost us? Just the cost of drugs.

[phkrause]

No I was not sort of implying.A friend of mine very recently passed away.She was diagnosed with cancer.She did not have the money and did not have insurance.She received surgery,chemo,radiation.

If she didn't have the money to pay on her own and had no insurance! May I ask than who paid? Just curious!

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

No I was not sort of implying.A friend of mine very recently passed away.She was diagnosed with cancer.She did not have the money and did not have insurance.She received surgery,chemo,radiation.

If she didn't have the money to pay on her own and had no insurance! May I ask than who paid? Just curious!

She had a job,a trailer house and a car when she was diagnosed.

She worked as long as she could to maintain her personal expenses and was placed on a program thru the hospital that is funded by personal donations thru hospital alumni until if and when she could qualify for medicaid. Not sure why she could not apply right away. Towards the end she was then qualified for medicaid.

[fccool]

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So we should have bare bones hospitals as your example of the gym

Sorry,I want the hospital I need to have the medical equipment necessary to be able to take care of any emergency that comes along

Sure, and there should be such hospitals for people like yourself. I'm not proposing to homogenize the healthcare.

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I don't know what world you live in but in mine,first and foremost a very expensive building is built,very costly equipment with more being added all the time,a wide array of medices on hand 24/7,all the medical personal,janitors,cooks etc that must be paid by the cost of health care.

I understand that all of these things are "needed", but in reality they can be much simpler, and still accomplish the same thing.

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No I was not sort of implying.A friend of mine very recently passed away.She was diagnosed with cancer.She did not have the money and did not have insurance.She received surgery,chemo,radiation.

And I had my friend passing away, and she had insurance, and had various treatment, and her family ended up with pretty large debt aftermath. As I've said, we have to look at both sides of the story. You look at one, and say that there's nothing wrong.

[fccool]

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So people who are not willing to pay for specialists and do not want to go into debt should not be treated? Sounds like a plan

No, those people should have at least the basic universal coverage to help them out. And that money don't have to come about through raised taxed. People in the US are already paying enormous amounts for things that they don't need, like enormous amounts of military bases all around the world. Why should they pay high costs of that, when they are getting in debt at home if they get sick?

[fccool]

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So the years of education and cost of practise and malpractise insurance should be a free gift to you? Nice if you can get it but doesn't sound to much like a free market system unless you are on the receiving end.

It was not a free gift. My parents pay for it through taxes. And the government has plenty of tax money, because they only spend 4 billion per year on military expenditures. And they feel quite safe, and unconquered. They have their priorities straight. There's no-one to protect to, if they are dying from disease and cancer, because they are afraid of regular check ups and care.

Do you consider the expensive military equipment, and expensive police force, with highly trained officers as a free gift to those who visit this country? They will protect them, whether they pay taxes or not.

The healthcare would be much more affordable by and many people can be covered by slashing merely 5% off the US military budget.

[bonnie]

Sure, and there should be such hospitals for people like yourself. I'm not proposing to homogenize the healthcare.

[bonnie]

It was not a free gift. My parents pay for it through taxes. And the government has plenty of tax money, because they only spend 4 billion per year on military expenditures. And they feel quite safe, and unconquered. They have their priorities straight. There's no-one to protect to, if they are dying from disease and cancer, because they are afraid of regular check ups and care.

[fccool]

Bonnie, you put a lot of words in my mouth, and i think you read between the lines too much and fill my ideas with your own assumptions.

I never proposed segregating healthcare. Is it racist to have cheaper restaurants and more expensive ones? Do you understand the difference between availability and segregation? I can't have an honest conversation with you, when u constantly misrepresent and see what you want to see.

Have a good day.

[CoAspen]

Not a reply......

>Sorry,I want the hospital I need to have the medical equipment necessary to be able to take care of any emergency that comes along.<

That is the precise reason that US HC cost what it does. All of that 'best' or 'all' of everything does little to ensure a different outcome, ie better, than a lower cost alternative.

Uninsured persons do cost us in different ways. Example, an uninsured motorist severely injured in a accident is going to get the needed care, but the public pays for it. So whether we have universal HC or private payer, all will pay. The debate is over which is more expensive. I can say that private, for profit, cancer centers will most likely be less expensive than a hospital based one. I work for one and our imaging billing is lower for patients. Had a patient yesterday that saved over $500 by getting her PET/CT scan at our clinic vs the hospital across the street.

Yes, we do free indigent care.

[bonnie]

Bonnie, you put a lot of words in my mouth, and i think you read between the lines too much and fill my ideas with your own assumptions.

[bonnie]

I'll give you another example.

My wife and I went to visit Ukraine last September. I had sinus infection that developed into a throat infection, and eventually, due to excessive throwing up on the plane (I think the first time I ever threw up on the plane) I've developed laryngitis.

The doctor arrived a day later, to my parents house. He saw both of us. He checked my wives lymph node and said it was nothing to worry about, and was due to a neck strain and cold, he diagnosed my laryngitis and prescribed treatment for both of us.

How much it cost us? Just the cost of drugs.

The above is a bit simplistic.

The US is the leading country for drug research and medical technology. As far as I know other countries do not have to pay for that.Most countries get "OUR" drugs at a much reduced rate. Medical equipment and advances are first paid for by the US government and it's citizens. Other countries simply use what we provide.If we did not subsidize prescription drugs to other countries a US citizen would not pay such a high price.

If your country had to pay a going rate for our drugs, medical technology,advances and equipment can you estimate what your medical care would cost.Perhaps other countries need to quit riding our coat tails.

[bonnie]

The following would put a damper on my enthusiasim for being treated medically in the Ukraine,where I assume you are from

U.S. Citizen Services

United States Embassy

Medical facilities in Ukraine do not meet Western standards. Travelers with pre-existing conditions should carefully consider whether adequate care would be available during a trip to Ukraine. We encourage Americans planning a trip to Ukraine to purchase traveler's insurance before departing and to familiarize themselves with the conditions of their existing medical coverage and medical resources in Ukraine.

The Ukrainian parliament passed a law in 1997 whereby all visitors to Ukraine are required to obtain Ukrainian health insurance. According to information from Ukrainian authorities, the cost of this insurance depends on the anticipated length of a foreigner's stay in Ukraine or approximately 25 cents per day (the daily rate may be higher for shorter stays). This required insurance can be purchased after arrival and covers only the costs of basic medical care inside Ukraine; it does not cover medical evacuation. Failure to purchase mandatory health insurance often results in refusal of treatment at Ukrainian public hospitals and clinics. Private clinics do not require Ukrainian public health insurance, but can be as expensive as similar clinics in the United States and may require payment in advance. More information can be found online in Ukrainian or by calling +38 (044) 206 2885 from abroad or 8-800-500-1080 from within Ukraine.

In case of a medical emergency, please contact the U.S. Embassy Consular Section at your earliest convenience

[CoAspen]

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If we did not subsidize prescription drugs to other countries ....

We don't 'subsidize', other places negotiate. Example, there are rules in place that forbid Medicare from 'negotiating'.

Healthcare is a business in our system, not so to other countries.

[bonnie]

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If we did not subsidize prescription drugs to other countries ....

We don't 'subsidize', other places negotiate. Example, there are rules in place that forbid Medicare from 'negotiating'.

Healthcare is a business in our system, not so to other countries.

If negotiate is the correct word so be it.The fact remains other countries are getting much cheaper drugs than US citizens.

The US has researched and brought most to market,other countries get them cheaper. With what appears to be "plenty of tax money" in other countries maybe they should stop negotiating and pay "their fair share"

[bonnie]

I am assuming you are from the Ukraine.If not I apologize but think this is pretty much the case world wide.

According to you,your country has plenty of tax dollars,cheap medical care etc.

Perhaps if they returned the money the US has given them,paid a fair market price for their drugs and medical technology and advancements we could rise to the level you think we should.

Think of what this money could have paid for in medical expenses if the Ukraine would pay it's own way.In recent years in recent years the Ukraine was the third-largest recipient of U.S. foreign aid, behind only Israel and Egypt. Possibly this has changed but my guess is the money has not stopped flowing into your country from the US.

I am not opposed to foreign aid but am getting a little sick and tired of those on the receiving end complaining the US is not "performing" to the recipients standards

NEWS

Ukraine Leader Arrives in U.S. to Good News: Doubling of Aid

March 4, 1994 | DOYLE McMANUS, TIMES STAFF WRITER

President Clinton, encouraged by Ukraine's agreement to dismantle nuclear weapons and its cautious turn toward economic reform, has decided to more than double U.S. aid to the strategically important country, officials said Thursday. Clinton plans to announce the boost, from $330 million to about $700 million, after he has lunch at the White House with visiting Ukrainian President Leonid Kravchuk today.

[fccool]

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I am not opposed to foreign aid but am getting a little sick and tired of those on the receiving end complaining the US is not "performing" to the recipients standards

Lol. That's your argument? What does it have to do with standards of healthcare? Ukraine ranks below US on that list, and I think it should be understandable that it's a 20 year old country at this point of time. It's still recovering from ruin of USSR and restructuring it's economic and political system.

I'm not speaking from the standpoint people in Ukraine. I don't think people in Ukraine care about the condition of US healthcare. I do, because it largely impacts the living conditions in the US.

In the 80s, it was not an issue. It will become more and more of an issue as US will start collapsing under the weight of the debt and poor economic system it's mismanaging.

US was entitled with managing the stability of the world currency in Bretton Woods. It then used it to it's advantage and ended up printing itself into prosperity by leaving 15 trillion IOUs behind, and more than 50 Trillion in future obligations. I would not be the one to talk about "we give you money". US is the largest debtor nation in the world.

Perhaps it should stop it's policing and "charity" work, and start taking care of it's own economy and citizens.

[bonnie]

Lol. That's your argument? What does it have to do with standards of healthcare? Ukraine ranks below US on that list, and I think it should be understandable that it's a 20 year old country at this point of time. It's still recovering from ruin of USSR and restructuring it's economic and political system.

[fccool]

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You said you have plenty of tax money to provide healthcare.

That money is coming from somewhere.Without the aid,the benefits of our drug and medical research,and access to our advancements and cheap drugs would you be able to say that?

I merely pointed out the priorities. For Ukraine, with little resources it did have starting out as independent country, it never abandoned the basic public healthcare system. There are private clinics that do get better treatment due to better technology.

To start "My dad is better than yours because he is landing your dad money" type of argument is immature, and avoids the real issue.

My point was never "better healthcare". My point was efficiency and availability.

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You are the one that brought in the superior quality of healthcare provided in the Ukraine.

The availability,home Dr visits and cheap care.How are the people of the Ukraine afforded that?

I brought a case of superior experience. The people of Ukraine would get it whether or not there was US aid due to ongoing priority on tax-based basic healthcare for anyone.

They do pay for their own drugs, so there's no confusion, but drugs are generic, thus much cheaper.

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Yes, we probably should not give the Ukraine so much aid as they have plenty of tax money to provide their own.

That "aid" is a geo-political bribe to have Ukraine-Russia standoff, instead of betterment of Ukrainian-Russian relationship. It has very little to do with improving Ukrainian economy.

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Taking care of our own should not be providing for people that do not do everything they can to help themselves

I'm not disputing that. But you give an impression that if someone has a $300 HDTV, and $400 stove... they must have money to pay for $2,000 night at the hospital.

For all of the taxes that American public pays, there should be more coming back in terms of direct benefits for those taxes.

A nearly fourth of it goes to military spending. That's a bit overboard, considering that US spends more on military than the next 20 countries combined. Who are they protecting against? That's reminiscent of Nazi Germany, not of a democracy.

I agree with CoAspen to certain extend. It's much more efficient to let private practices handle the specialized aspects of medicine, than jam it all at the hospital and then split the costs among people, whether they are using the services or not. To a certain extend, such things are bound to happen.

What I advocate is not doing away with it. The best approach to health is not drug and surgery approach. It's prophylactic approach. If US spend minimal amount of money on proper education, and prevention... it could help cut much of the healthcare related costs considerably.

But what's the profit in that for pharma companies? What profit in that for large hospitals? They need a constant inflow of the patients to cover those ever-rising costs of treatment.

I certainly think that it's an individual responsibility to take care of one's health. But, for the amount of tax dollars that we spend (nearly 50%, when all tax and fees are taken into consideration), there should be some proportionate return to us a society. Instead, the politicians end up borrowing more on our children's behalf, and stick us with rising inflation that diminishes our ability to afford the basics.

What sense does it make defending that?