Buying groceries on sabbath

[John317]

...I like to have at least ONE room in the house somewhat presentable for Sabbath so I don't have to look at all the stuff. It frees the mind. Plus, the angels might need a place to sit and stay for awhile....

Makes perfect sense, Club. It's good to put away everything that would prevent us from keeping our minds focussed on the purpose of the Sabbath.

I read somewhere in Ellen White's writings that the angels of God enjoy a clean, orderly house.

[BobRyan]

Thanks John.

My point is not that a person is lost if they refuse to take the time and obtain the evidence of assurance that is promised to all in John 14 and Romans 8:15-16.

I simply argue that it is best to get that assurance rather than gamble on "a supposed hope and nothing more".

in Christ's message in Matt 7 - he states that a great many people are gambling on the "supposed hope" route.

in Christ,

Bob

[Pockey]

I didn't have any hope at all because I never felt that "sweet pardon." ...

I never felt the "witness of pardoning grace."...

Well without the evidence of this feeling of being pardoned, what do I have left.

This made me think of something I just read: "Many poor souls are groping in darkness, looking for the feelings which others say they have had in their experience. They overlook the fact that the believers in Christ must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. The convicted sinners have something to do. They must repent and show true faith." EGW BLJ 356.

Don't know if that helps or not. Anyways good to see you Cardw, are you still making music?

[cardw]

Thanks John.

My point is not that a person is lost if they refuse to take the time and obtain the evidence of assurance that is promised to all in John 14 and Romans 8:15-16.

I simply argue that it is best to get that assurance rather than gamble on "a supposed hope and nothing more".

in Christ's message in Matt 7 - he states that a great many people are gambling on the "supposed hope" route.

in Christ,

Bob

Bob,

I told you I spent 20 years taking the time to obtain evidence of assurance. Is that enough time in your book?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I didn't have any hope at all because I never felt that "sweet pardon." ...

I never felt the "witness of pardoning grace."...

Well without the evidence of this feeling of being pardoned, what do I have left.

This made me think of something I just read: "Many poor souls are groping in darkness, looking for the feelings which others say they have had in their experience. They overlook the fact that the believers in Christ must work out their own salvation with fear and trembling. The convicted sinners have something to do. They must repent and show true faith." EGW BLJ 356.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: John317

Based on your memory of the Sabbath and of the things you learned from studying, what do you believe is the purpose of the Sabbath? What's it good for?

Originally Posted By: cardw

It is much simpler to be aware of the present than to go through all these mental gymnastics. All of this is trivia. It's a bunch of mental chatter and noise.

Do you know when I rest?

When I'm tired.

I'm not asking you what you do now or what you believe now.

I'm asking you what you know the Bible says about the reason for Sabbath-keeping.

If you truly believe all this is "trivia," why are you spending time here?

I don't go to Forums where people are talking about "trivia" and where I find only "chatter" and "noise." I don't think you do, either. I believe there's a deeper reason you are here, and it's a good thing.

John I have outlined a number of times why I'm here. I think what you believe and teach is harmful.

This dialog serves to illustrate the lack of coherent explanations. Your explanations morph to avoid the contradictions. Or you shift and suggest that it is my character that is at fault. But when I suggest that it is your method of communication is at fault you delete the post.

It is certainly your right to delete or include whatever you want as moderator, but you might want to ask yourself if you can take what you dish out.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

I never, in all the time I was a believer, felt what I could identify as the Holy Spirit. I would say that the holy spirit was in my life, but I had no way to tell if that was true. I tried to believe and do everything I read in the Bible and in Ellen White. I did this for years and as far as I could tell any enlightenment that came was stuff I learned on my own.

I have to conclude that either god was excluding me or Christians are making it up. And as far as I can discern that seems to be what is happening.

You might be looking for the wrong thing as evidence of the Holy Spirit in your life.

Do you accept the Scriptures-- such as the Psalms or the Gospels or the letters of Paul--- as God's voice to you personally?

[Overaged]

I did. Didn't work.

[John317]

...This dialog serves to illustrate the lack of coherent explanations. Your explanations morph to avoid the contradictions. Or you shift and suggest that it is my character that is at fault. But when I suggest that it is your method of communication is at fault you delete the post.

It is certainly your right to delete or include whatever you want as moderator, but you might want to ask yourself if you can take what you dish out.

This is not true. I have never deleted anything simply because you suggested that my method of communication is at fault.

I delete things only because they violate the rules of the Form. Usually it is because they are personal attacks, name-calling, or derogatory comments about people's character. I don't delete on the basis of whether I agree with a post. There are tens of thousands of posts that I don't agree with.

I don't get into personal matters. We need to stay focussed on issues, reasoning, and evidence, and stay away from personalities.

If you can find anywhere that I attacked your character, please post the quote here and give the post number and name of the discussion. If I attacked your character, or you personally, my comment will be deleted or edited.

[John317]

...

How long does one wait before deciding that it's not going to happen. I was a believer for a good 20+ years.

I went through something similar, only for 30+ years. I was baptized in 1973, and while I believed in the Bible and in Christ, it wasn't until about 2004 that "it happened."

It happened when I finally surrendered, or submitted, my entire self to Christ, without keeping anything in reserve.

Until that point, I had always kept part of me in reserve-- part of my life that I didn't want Him to have. I loved those parts of myself that I knew Christ wanted but which I refused to give Him because I knew if I gave those parts of my life to Him, I would not be able to keep them. But Christ requires all of us, not just a part.

It sounds like you weren't really a believer, though.

[John317]

Any language that pretends to communicate but actually does not

Originally Posted By: Overaged

Too often, we spout off a bunch of texts, totally innapropriately, and out of context, making it pretext, instead of proof text. We think we have to "prove" something when we witness, and half the time we don't even know, let alone consider, the use and original intended meaning of all our quoting. I actually don't blame you one little bit.

This is not the case, though, with 1 John 2: 3,4 and the other texts that I quoted.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...

How long does one wait before deciding that it's not going to happen. I was a believer for a good 20+ years.

I went through something similar, only for 30+ years. I was baptized in 1973, and while I believed in the Bible and in Christ, it wasn't until about 2004 that "it happened."

It happened when I finally surrendered, or submitted, my entire self to Christ, without keeping anything in reserve.

[BobRyan]

The Claims The promises:

Jesus claims that He "Draws ALL mankind" unto Himself John 12:32 and that the Holy Spirit convicts even the lost of "sin and righteousness and judgment" john 16.

Jesus said that He stands at the door and knocks "if anyone hears my voice AND OPENS the door I will come in" Rev 3.

God tells us in Rom 8:15-16 that for those who take the time to actually do it - while "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh" - they will experience the external, objective, confirming witness of "the Holy Spirit bearing WITNESS WITH our spirit that we ARE the children of God".

God said that "He is not willing for any to perish but wills that all should come to repentance" 2Peter 3.

The Earnest money in support of the claim:

Jesus then testifies to these claims with His own blood - in real life who is "the Atoning Sacrifice for OUR sins and not for OUR sins only but for the sins of the WHOLE WORLD" 1John 2:2.

Thus Jesus backs up his pledge to draw each one, showing His real life level of interest and concern "for each one" - by His death dying the torment of the second death FOR each one of the sins of "each one".

This is what he "puts up" to show the earnest, sincerity and level of commitment of His claim for "each one".

Is there anyone out there that can demonstrate more integrity than that in making some kind of claim to the contrary??

John317 places his finger on the key point in all of this --

I went through something similar, only for 30+ years. I was baptized in 1973, and while I believed in the Bible and in Christ, it wasn't until about 2004 that "it happened."

It happened when I finally surrendered, or submitted, my entire self to Christ, without keeping anything in reserve.

Until that point, I had always kept part of me in reserve-- part of my life that I didn't want Him to have.

In Romans 8 we are told that the promise is ONLY for those who "by the Spirit ARE putting to death the deeds of the flesh".

Romans 8 tells us that those who hold back in reserve and thus set their mind on the flesh "DO not submit to the Law of God neither indeed CAN they"

And yet they tell themselves "I am spiritually rich and spiritually incresed with goods and spiritually in need of nothing" as if they are born again saints.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

How then does one who is lost start on the road back to God?

They can start by prayerfully reading John 13-20. Or if they find that too difficult - prayerfully reading Desire of Ages chapters 74-84.

Is your soul, your life not worth reading 10 chapters from DA? or even 7 from the book of John?

God says in the book of Ezek 18 and 33 - "As I live - I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked... why will you die? Turn to me and live!"

God has risked all to provide salvation to each one of mankind.

in Christ,

Bob

[Overaged]

I know; what I said was not directed at you or your posts

[Overaged]

Saying that maybe you were not a believer then is not the same as saying "it's your fault." Two totally different things

[cardw]

Quote:

"Do not neglect secret prayer...Plead as earnestly, as eagerly as you would for your mortal life"

1T 158-164.

I read this as a kid and I started praying and pleading with god to not kill me or put me in the lake of fire. "Please god! Please don't kill me or burn me up in the lake of fire. I freely admit that I am the chief of sinners and that I deserve the worst possible punishment. I know that my righteousness is a filthy rags. I give my life completely to you. Please, please, PLEASE don't kill me or torture me in the lake of fire. I beg of you please."

Is this fearful and trembling enough for you?

Maybe I should start cutting body parts off that cause me to sin like Saint Jerome?

Should I start flogging myself literally to prove my dedication?

I was terrified for years. I think I had the fear and trembling thing down.

Like I said, I took this very literally and very seriously. This is what it says to do. I did it and nothing happened.

No change is evidence of no change.

So don't you dare say I wasn't humble or dedicated enough. You have no idea the torture it is to believe, as a child, that you deserve to receive the worst possible punishment and if you don't you are going to face the time of trouble that will be worse than anything you can imagine. I contemplated this daily for years.

To teach a child this and to expose them to Ellen White's writings as infallible on this is child abuse. There are no blows on the outside, but the minute by minute fear, torture, and self loathing suck the life out of everything.

[John317]

If you can find anywhere that I attacked your character, please post the quote here and give the post number and name of the discussion. If I attacked your character, or you personally, my comment will be deleted or edited.

Originally Posted By: cardw

You don't have to delete anything and I really don't care that you deleted portions of my other post. I am just posting this as an illustration of the underlying assumption that you speak from. The assumption that it must be my fault.

I certainly don't assume that it is God's fault, nor do I conclude on the basis of your testimony that God either does not exist or that He does not keep His promises.

Is this what you mean when you speak of my having attacked your character?

That is not an attack on your character; it's saying you are wrong about God and about the gospel.

[John317]

Until that point' date=' I had always kept part of me in reserve-- part of my life that I didn't want Him to have. I loved those parts of myself that I knew Christ wanted but which I refused to give Him because I knew if I gave those parts of my life to Him, I would not be able to keep them. But Christ requires all of us, not just a part.

It sounds like you weren't really a believer, though.

Originally Posted By: cardw

I guess you are calling my a liar here? I told you I was a believer.

[/quote']

I'm not calling you a liar at all. I am saying that you had and continue to have misunderstandings about what God has said to us in His Word, the Bible.

You want me to believe you are no liar, and I am not saying you are a liar. But more important to me are words that would make God out to be a liar.

The promises of God in the Bible are certain.

Romans 3:4-- let God be true, but every man a liar.

[fccool]

John, I will have to say this with all due respect, but you are mistaken God being a liar with your theology being one

Adventism is a school of very narrow interpretation that does not allow for "It could be this, or it could be that". It just picks on and it sticks to it. There's no room for "possibilities" because it comes across as weak, and obviously does not serve the goal of Adventism.

True humility and openness results from realization that you can be wrong. Let me subtext what you are saying to make it clear

Quote:

But more important to me are words that would make God out to be a liar.

Essentially, what you are saying is that God is a liar, if any other possibility happens to be true.

So, in your view, if God offers universal salvation, He's a liar. If Adventism theology happens to be false, then He's a liar.

You base your interpretation not from the idea that God is true and we can fault, but from the position that your theology is in a perfect alignment with God. And if someone says is not, then God is a liar by proxy of your view.

It's a very cult-like mechanism to divert any opposing arguments as arguments against God himself. "Why would you say that? Are you calling God a liar?". So, logically it's a misleading way to say... since God can't lie, and I simply repeat what He said, then I am right.

You may be not. You may very well be way off.

[cardw]

I'm not calling you a liar at all. I am saying that you had and continue to have misunderstandings about what God has said to us in His Word, the Bible.

So, because I don't understand it the way you do then I'm going against god?

Do you have god like understanding powers?

It's amazing how when it gets real that everything gets quiet.

[John317]

... So, in your view, if God offers universal salvation, He's a liar.

If all humanity and the Devil are eventually saved in God's kingdom, it would mean that either God lied to us or that the Bible is not true and is not God's Word.

[Tom Wetmore]

...Or that we misunderstood.

We are, after all, the weak link in all this. We are known for making mistakes and being confused. That is the mark of sinful man.

[John317]

Tom, what does the Bible teach regarding the destruction of the wicked?

Can we be certain of what the Scriptures teach on this topic?

[Overaged]

Jesus was pretty quiet sometimes when his belief was challenged