Buying groceries on sabbath

[Overaged]

Hi Folks, This is my first post.

LOL, you picked a dangerous topic for your first post but WELCOME!

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

"Do not neglect secret prayer...Plead as earnestly, as eagerly as you would for your mortal life"

1T 158-164.

Did you read everything else in those pages, such as the following paragraphs:

[John317]

Sure. I'm not saying cardw is to blame as in having done something wrong. I am trying to explain to him why he saw things-- and still evidently sees them-- that way. There can be many reasons but none of those mean is that it's child abuse to take the Bible and EGW literally.

[Overaged]

This week I've had a few exposures to conversations about people's memories, harmful ones, and how that has affected them in their later lives.

A discussion involving our dear cardw piqued me to mention it finally here, as it has been an eventful week, thought-wise, for me. The memories mentioned have been horrific, some in the church, some out of it. The common factor is that they involved children and given that stage of development the effects have been profound.

All of the experiences brought to my attention have made me inwardly weep. Weep, and just reach out and give the person a great, big hug. I got one lady's e-mail address because I want to keep in touch with her. That is not a usual practise for me with a customer, but I have prayed on the phone with this one a couple of times and we are bonding into friends.

And among them have been my own children.

The courage that these folks have shown in facing life is incredible and awe-inspiring.

What I don't know is, how some of these broken children grow up and find Jesus through it and some give up. What makes the difference in how this happens?

My friend cardw, I know where you are at from what you have exposed to us, and do not blame you one bit. I thank you for allowing us to listen as you vent. I picture you as my friend, and I must tell you that I have not given up on you to experience the real joy that I and so many others have experienced in Jesus.

I only wish healing... and although you haven't yet had it from the Jesus angle, it is there. I've heard too many testimonies from devastating childhoods to know otherwise. If anyone here can be of a support and uplifting character to you, let it be our gift.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...I grew up and realized that all this respect for the bible and Ellen White was underserved. It is nonsense. No reasonable advanced being who was all knowing would behave and teach this terrible stuff to children, let alone adults.

Ok, but you are still reading the Bible and Ellen White as if you are a child. As you read them now as an adult, what do you think?

Let's talk about them from the viewpoint of grown ups, not as children.

I'm reading Ellen White literally.

When she says that I should be in agony and bitter sorrow I take that for what it means.

How would you suggest an adult read it any differently?

[John317]

Did you read everything else in those pages, such as the following paragraphs:

Originally Posted By: cardw

John, I'm not sure that this helps your case. Yes, I have read all of this.

I'm talking about when you were a child and read those pages. I am asking you what you understood from her other writings, including the pages that you metioned in First vol. of the Testimonies.

Most children don't take down the first vol. of the Testimonies and begin reading on their own. They usually will have an adult with them or someone able to explain what it says. As a kid, if you got from it what you say you did, you obviously needed someone to help you see what was being said.

By the way, how old were you? I haven't seen your age mentioned. Were you 12 or 15 or what?

[Gail]

There is a bondage that is inflicted with spiritual abuse... I have encountered people that did not receive the blessing of peace with God because of it.

Quote:

Romans 8:21, KJV

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

"Glorious liberty" is what you didn't attain, Richard. And it's not for lack of trying, and I regret that the experience wasn't yours. I don't believe for a second that it CAN'T be, though!

Christians who are blessed are that way for a reason. Hearts turn right around from depravity and unbelief due to something!

Souls more dastardly than what you have been made to feel have turned right around to praise God. That kind of heart change just doesn't come about by itself.

I am at a loss for words for what was imposed on you. It makes me realise the necessity of bearing with special patience those who were raised among those who should have known better! The lady I referred to in my post above had experiences like that, too. She was able to find a praising relationship with God afterwards but not her children yet.

[Q.E.D.]

Thanks for the welcome John317.

Just a few thoughts for consideration.

Since I am new to this topic my opinions may be wrong about cardw's views.

Cardw's charges seem to be somewhat hostile in regards to the Ellen White "mortal life" quote due to the fact that cardw for some reason left out the phrase "for it is the soul of religion".

It seems to me that cardw tried to make it appear that one should plead for "ones mortal life" instead "purity of soul" which is the object of "secret prayer".

"Do not neglect secret prayer, for it is the SOUL OF RELIGION. With earnest, fervent prayer, plead for PURITY OF SOUL. Plead as earnestly, as eagerly, as you would for your mortal life, were it at stake. Remain before God until unutterable longings are begotten within you for salvation, and the SWEET EVIDENCE is obtained of PARDONED SIN." {1T 163.3}

Seems to me Christians are encouraged by the Ellen White quote to "not neglect secret prayer" and to "pray earnestly" for "purity of soul" as eagerly as one might for their mortal life. I would submit that the counsel is demonstrating the vital importance of "purity of soul" for the purpose of becoming Christ like not for the purpose of begging God not to destroy you in the fires of hell.

I would submit that the Ellen White quote above has a basis in 1 John 1:9.

"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."(1 John 1:9)

1John 1:9 speaks directly to confession of specific sins.

The Ellen White quote does not state nor imply that one should pray "Please god! Please don't kill me or burn me up in the lake of fire. I freely admit that I am the chief of sinners and that I deserve the worst possible punishment. I know that my righteousness is a filthy rags. I give my life completely to you. Please, please, PLEASE don't kill me or torture me in the lake of fire. I beg of you please."

One of the purposes of secret prayer is for the confession of sin.

"Confess your sins to God, who only can forgive them, and your faults to one another."(SC, 37)

"For what it's worth. . ."

Q.E.D.

[Overaged]

That was actually worth a lot

[John317]

I completely agree with you. I think you've analyzed it very well.

I would be willing to "bet" that most people reading those passages would draw essentially the same conclusion, although few would express it as well as you have.

I'd like to know cardw's thoughtful response.

[Overaged]

By the way, how old were you? I haven't seen your age mentioned. Were you 12 or 15 or what?

I was 39

[aldona]

This week I've had a few exposures to conversations about people's memories, harmful ones, and how that has affected them in their later lives.

A discussion involving our dear cardw piqued me to mention it finally here, as it has been an eventful week, thought-wise, for me. The memories mentioned have been horrific, some in the church, some out of it. The common factor is that they involved children and given that stage of development the effects have been profound.

All of the experiences brought to my attention have made me inwardly weep. Weep, and just reach out and give the person a great, big hug. I got one lady's e-mail address because I want to keep in touch with her. That is not a usual practise for me with a customer, but I have prayed on the phone with this one a couple of times and we are bonding into friends.

And among them have been my own children.

The courage that these folks have shown in facing life is incredible and awe-inspiring.

What I don't know is, how some of these broken children grow up and find Jesus through it and some give up. What makes the difference in how this happens?

My friend cardw, I know where you are at from what you have exposed to us, and do not blame you one bit. I thank you for allowing us to listen as you vent. I picture you as my friend, and I must tell you that I have not given up on you to experience the real joy that I and so many others have experienced in Jesus.

I only wish healing... and although you haven't yet had it from the Jesus angle, it is there. I've heard too many testimonies from devastating childhoods to know otherwise. If anyone here can be of a support and uplifting character to you, let it be our gift.

I'd just like to say that I endorse everything Gail has said here...and that cardw's experience is not unique. Open your eyes and look around you, especially at the generations now aged in their late 30's/40's and over,and you will find large numbers of people who were taught the same way, and ended up with the same fear and shame based view of God.

I was at the tail end of that generation. I read just about everything that EG White had written by age 14-15, and the more I read and tried to apply it, the more fearful, depressed and hopeless I felt. A teenager afraid of humor, afraid to feel emotions, for whom what should have been a delightful time of falling in love with my (now) husband became an agony of fear and guilt, no thanks to all of EG White's pronouncements on courtship and its ever-present dangers and evils.

Whenever I dreamed of the Second Coming, it was a terrifying, nightmarish event.

And there was no use talking to parents, Sabbath school teachers, ministers etc...everybody was talking the same talk and teaching the same way. It is just the way Adventism was. It is only changing very slowly.

All around me there are people who were scarred the same way. I spoke to a couple yesterday at our potluck alone. Some of us have managed to cling onto our faith by the tips of our fingernails, despite the best efforts of the more "righteous" members to kick our hands from the ledge. Some of us have had to modify and/or throw out large parts of the religion we were taught as children in order to remain sane, or in order to even be able to continue believing that there is a God. Who has gone too far and thrown out the baby with the bathwater? How can any of us judge that in another person, without knowing the mental battle he/she has experienced?

And what about the ones who don't even come to church anymore? I read somewhere that there are 3 or 4 ex-adventists for every current Adventist member. If your local stamp collecting club or Siamese cat appreciation society boasted these kinds of statistics, wouldn't they be taking a long hard look at themselves and how they could do things better?

Let us listen to what people like cardw have to say without constantly picking apart every statement to prove that he is wrong. From what I have read of what he has had to say, he is a decent and principled human being who cares deeply about what is just, right and fair. He is displaying plenty of what my Quaker friends call "that of God in every man." There seem to be too many people on this forum who are intent on breaking the bruised reed and extinguishing the smouldering wick, so to speak.

(Did I really say all that? rant WAY too long. WHAT was in that coffee?)

AJ (sneaking back in to the shadows)

[John317]

By the way, how old were you? I haven't seen your age mentioned. Were you 12 or 15 or what?

Originally Posted By: Overaged

I was 39

I can see you must have had a lot of life-experiences behind you by the time you gave your life over to Jesus.

I read your amazing testimony a about a week ago, I think. It just shows that God, the Bible and Ellen White are not to blame for our problems. In your case, God was the solution to the problems,and Ellen White's writings haven't hurt.

[John317]

There is a bondage that is inflicted with spiritual abuse... I have encountered people that did not receive the blessing of peace with God because of it.

Sure. There is such a thing as spiritual abuse.

Cardw said my views are dangerous because I teach that we should understand the Bible and Ellen White literally. I asked him for evidence and he gave his experiences as a child as his example of how my views are dangerous.

No one is arguing that he didn't undergo some kind of "spiritual abuse." What is being argued is that his experience doesn't prove that Ellen White's books are dangerous or are "child-abuse."

[CoAspen]

Aldona,

You hit the nail on the head!

You did not post a rant but a very truthful situation with answers.

I would add that proving others wrong makes neither right. Yes, Cardw

challenges, but if he were replied to in the manner you and Gail are attempting

much greater good would be accomplished for all.

[Pockey]

How is this any different?

How is it different to pray as earnestly and as eagerly?

If I was praying for my mortal life there would be a lot of fear involved. And the Bible says that fear is the beginning of wisdom.

How is being fearful wise?

I did talk to my pastors and those in authority. They said the same thing as you. I don't see any difference at all between pleading for my mortal life and asking god to save me as earnestly and eagerly as if pleading for my mortal life.

The experience is the same.

These are semantic games.

Cardw, I believe it's different because of the words used in your prayer which was "Please god! Please don't kill me or burn me up in the lake of fire." What would cause us to be burned up in the lake of fire? It would be a lack of repentance and confession for our sins. A refusal to turn away from cherished sins. That's why I think we have to pray for repentance and victory over sin, and not just "Please don't kill me." Because otherwise, someone might be tempted to continue on a sinful path and justify it by saying that they pray to God to not kill them.

[John317]

There's nothing at all wrong in cardw's "challenge." That's what the Forum is all about.

The question is, is it dangerous for us to believe the Bible and Ellen White's writings are to be understood literally?

Second question is, does cardw's experience as a child prove or demonstrate that those sources are dangerous and "child-abuse." This is what cardw is arguing.

Based on his childhood experience and apparently because of his studies since then, cardw says:

I grew up and realized that all this respect for the bible and Ellen White was underserved. It is nonsense. No reasonable advanced being who was all knowing would behave and teach this terrible stuff to children, let alone adults.

How how would you answer someone who makes these arguments?

[cardw]

It seems to me that cardw tried to make it appear that one should plead for "ones mortal life" instead "purity of soul" which is the object of "secret prayer".

"Do not neglect secret prayer, for it is the SOUL OF RELIGION. With earnest, fervent prayer, plead for PURITY OF SOUL. Plead as earnestly, as eagerly, as you would for your mortal life, were it at stake. Remain before God until unutterable longings are begotten within you for salvation, and the SWEET EVIDENCE is obtained of PARDONED SIN." {1T 163.3}

I prayed for purity of soul. Remember I read all of these writings and tried different things for 20 years. It didn't work period.

And what exactly is sweet evidence of pardoned sin? It's so vague as to be meaningless. The only thing one can be sure of is that they don't have it. If you don't know what it is then you will forever be in doubt.

This is just another example of nonsense.

[Overaged]

There's nothing at all wrong in cardw's "challenge." That's what the Forum is all about.

The question is, is it dangerous for us to believe the Bible and Ellen White's writings are to be understood literally?

Second question is, does cardw's experience as a child prove or demonstrate that those sources are dangerous and "child-abuse." This is what cardw is arguing.

How how would you answer someone who argues these two points?

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

How is this any different?

How is it different to pray as earnestly and as eagerly?

If I was praying for my mortal life there would be a lot of fear involved. And the Bible says that fear is the beginning of wisdom.

How is being fearful wise?

I did talk to my pastors and those in authority. They said the same thing as you. I don't see any difference at all between pleading for my mortal life and asking god to save me as earnestly and eagerly as if pleading for my mortal life.

The experience is the same.

These are semantic games.

Cardw, I believe it's different because of the words used in your prayer which was "Please god! Please don't kill me or burn me up in the lake of fire." What would cause us to be burned up in the lake of fire? It would be a lack of repentance and confession for our sins. A refusal to turn away from cherished sins. That's why I think we have to pray for repentance and victory over sin, and not just "Please don't kill me." Because otherwise, someone might be tempted to continue on a sinful path and justify it by saying that they pray to God to not kill them.

I confessed that I was the chief of sinners just like Paul. I would think following Paul's example would be a shoe in. I prayed for victory over sin and I expressed my willingness to turn away from lusting after women.

I had no lack of repentance and humbly asking for victory over sin.

It didn't work period. There was no justification. I made no excuses. I still make no excuses for my behavior. I take full responsibility for my behavior.

This is about what works and what doesn't work. The only thing I ever got from my Christian beliefs was fear, misery, and sorrow. I have no need to cling to them at all. There is plenty of joy, peace, and happiness without all the trying to figure out what god wants.

It makes no practical sense to me to believe in something that doesn't work.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

Did you read everything else in those pages, such as the following paragraphs:

Originally Posted By: cardw

John, I'm not sure that this helps your case. Yes, I have read all of this.

I'm talking about when you were a child and read those pages. I am asking you what you understood from her other writings, including the pages that you metioned in First vol. of the Testimonies.

Most children don't take down the first vol. of the Testimonies and begin reading on their own. They usually will have an adult with them or someone able to explain what it says. As a kid, if you got from it what you say you did, you obviously needed someone to help you see what was being said.

By the way, how old were you? I haven't seen your age mentioned. Were you 12 or 15 or what?

I was able to read at a College level at the age of 10. So, as instructed, I read our whole library of Ellen White books, including the Conflict of the Ages series, The Bible commentaries, and Messages to Young People, etc. etc. Because this was the Spirit of Prophecy and it held the secrets of a successful and joyful life. Hardly.

Now I was a serious believer until I entered my Freshman year of college at age 17. From the age of 10 to 17 I did everything that it said to do. I must have read Steps to Christ 20 to 30 times trying to figure out exactly what I should do. At age 17 I read that god wanted us to hot or cold. I was honest enough to recognize that I wasn't meeting the requirements to be hot, no matter what I prayed, read, studied, or meditated on. It wasn't working and I was so depressed that I was contemplating taking my own life.

I decided to sign up for cold and I tell you it saved my life. I felt so light and free. These were the very things that Christianity promised to give me and it didn't deliver. I encountered other people who clearly had joyful and successful lives. They clearly loved others and enjoyed helping others. They were generous and freely expressed it. The only "problem" was that they weren't Christians. So it became obvious to me that Christianity stunted people's emotional and intellectual growth. And as I dialog with various Christians throughout the years it has become even more obvious.

There is a serious lack of candor and willingness to look at these problems and your tendency to treat me as a child like wayward son and speaking of me in the third person when I'm right here reveals your lack of comprehension.

Every time it gets to something specific you generalize and say it must be my lack of understanding. This is avoidance. I don't know if you are willfully doing this, but it is evidence that you have your own doubts at some level as well.

I know this stuff probably better than you do. I am very thorough as you should know by now.

[Pockey]

I confessed that I was the chief of sinners just like Paul. I would think following Paul's example would be a shoe in. I prayed for victory over sin and I expressed my willingness to turn away from lusting after women.

I had no lack of repentance and humbly asking for victory over sin.

It didn't work period. There was no justification. I made no excuses. I still make no excuses for my behavior. I take full responsibility for my behavior.

This is about what works and what doesn't work. The only thing I ever got from my Christian beliefs was fear, misery, and sorrow. I have no need to cling to them at all. There is plenty of joy, peace, and happiness without all the trying to figure out what god wants.

It makes no practical sense to me to believe in something that doesn't work.

Ok, I completely understand. Thank you for clarifying. Brother, one can have all the good intentions and prayer in the world, but it won't amount to much without the will. The will is the key. We can't change ourselves but we can choose to follow God. As we do that, our nature begins to change through His power. The more we choose Him, the closer He gets to us and changes us. When we're at crossroads to be tempted, we can choose to obey God, He can give us the power to resist the devil. This is the battle! The warfare against self is the greatest battle ever fought!

On a side note, I have respect for the amount of fear you had/have. I could definitely learn from that. Even the smartest person in the history of man (besides Jesus) said the whole point was to fear God and obey his commandments.

[cardw]

There is a bondage that is inflicted with spiritual abuse... I have encountered people that did not receive the blessing of peace with God because of it.

Quote:

Romans 8:21, KJV

Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

"Glorious liberty" is what you didn't attain, Richard. And it's not for lack of trying, and I regret that the experience wasn't yours. I don't believe for a second that it CAN'T be, though!

Gail, you are very sweet.

I assure you that I am in no danger of feeling bad or being offended.

I truly believe what Christianity teaches is harmful from a rational perspective.

I know that when one is a believer it can appear hostile and resentful when non believers talk about Christianity. It comes with the territory.

I like and love Christian people, but I don't believe that they are nice people because they are Christians. I think they would be nice people as any other religion or non religion. People tell themselves all kinds of different stories to make sense of their transformations, but I think enlightenment comes in many forms.

[John317]

"Do not neglect secret prayer, for it is the SOUL OF RELIGION. With earnest, fervent prayer, plead for PURITY OF SOUL. Plead as earnestly, as eagerly, as you would for your mortal life, were it at stake. Remain before God until unutterable longings are begotten within you for salvation, and the SWEET EVIDENCE is obtained of PARDONED SIN." {1T 163.3}

I prayed for purity of soul. Remember I read all of these writings and tried different things for 20 years. It didn't work period.

How old were you at the end of the 20 years?

And what were you looking for? In other words, in what way didn't "it" work?

It sounds like you were doing a lot of "works" without completely trusting Christ. Did you realize that no one is saved or put right with God because of his works?

Do you remember reading the following sentences:

Originally Posted By: Ellen G. White

How are you to know that you are accepted of God? Study His word prayerfully. Lay it not aside for any other book. This Book convinces of sin. It plainly reveals the way of salvation. It brings to view a bright and glorious reward. It reveals to you a complete Saviour, and teaches you that through His boundless mercy alone can you expect salvation.

By what alone can you and I expect salvation? Through His boundless mercy, right?

You were evidently thinking that you had to do something to earn his mercy and love.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Q.E.D.

It seems to me that cardw tried to make it appear that one should plead for "ones mortal life" instead "purity of soul" which is the object of "secret prayer".

"Do not neglect secret prayer, for it is the SOUL OF RELIGION. With earnest, fervent prayer, plead for PURITY OF SOUL. Plead as earnestly, as eagerly, as you would for your mortal life, were it at stake. Remain before God until unutterable longings are begotten within you for salvation, and the SWEET EVIDENCE is obtained of PARDONED SIN." {1T 163.3}

I prayed for purity of soul. Remember I read all of these writings and tried different things for 20 years. It didn't work period.

And what exactly is sweet evidence of pardoned sin? It's so vague as to be meaningless. The only thing one can be sure of is that they don't have it. If you don't know what it is then you will forever be in doubt.

This is just another example of nonsense.

"And what exactly is "SWEET EVIDENCE" of pardoned sin?" - cardw

"9 Holding the mystery of the faith in a PURE CONSCIENCE."(1 Tim 3:9)

"7 And the PEACE of GOD, which PASSETH ALL UNDERSTANDING, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus."(Phil 4:7)

Q.E.D.