Buying groceries on sabbath

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

cardw - your "deny all" solution to every witness in favor of the power of God only goes so far.

At some point even you will have to come up for a breath of objectivity.

in Christ,

Bob

Originally Posted By: cardw

Objectivity requires some production of evidence.

Says who?

You're like a little kid.

[Pockey]

Here's the issue, sid, and that's one of the reasons that I decided not to answer your previous questions. You speak through what I describe "magic words". Not in terms that they fix anything, but in terms that they are very vague and don't offer much practical direction.

[Overaged]

You are correct. I can objectively say that moon is made of green cheese

LOL; Ill take your word for it.

[Pockey]

If I gain any victory over anything it is because I have chosen to resist it. There is no evidence that god has anything to do with it. Now if I noticed after I prayed about it that I lost all desire to do something that would be remarkable.

Remarkable yes! Cardw, has this never happened? Surely it has happened before. Can you recall an instance when this happened? What about other incidences of providence, not just removing sinful desires, but in times of need when you needed Him? Do you recall when He answered you? You were a believer for 20 years brother I know there had to be times.

I respectfully disagree that God has nothing to do with it when you gain victory over anything. I believe He is working in you, even though you may not believe it. How do I know? Because I can see evidence of Him in you. You have patience and are not mean-spirited. That's Jesus in you.

[Pockey]

You're like a little kid.

Lol and this is one of the reasons I love Overaged.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You're like a little kid.

Lol and this is one of the reasons I love Overaged.

LOL; thankyou both of you...You know, cardw is quite correct. I am over 50 and yet friends and family still are in a quandary; asking: "What are you going to be when you grow up?" I do get a little juvenile sometimes. But I have been married over 20 years.

[John317]

Yeah, stay young at heart and in your love of life and your interests.

[Pockey]

:D

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

If I gain any victory over anything it is because I have chosen to resist it. There is no evidence that god has anything to do with it. Now if I noticed after I prayed about it that I lost all desire to do something that would be remarkable.

Remarkable yes! Cardw, has this never happened? Surely it has happened before. Can you recall an instance when this happened? What about other incidences of providence, not just removing sinful desires, but in times of need when you needed Him? Do you recall when He answered you? You were a believer for 20 years brother I know there had to be times.

I respectfully disagree that God has nothing to do with it when you gain victory over anything. I believe He is working in you, even though you may not believe it. How do I know? Because I can see evidence of Him in you. You have patience and are not mean-spirited. That's Jesus in you.

Well you are certainly free to assign what ever good I do to Jesus. I can attest that any changes that I have made are due to truth telling, good information based on results, and me deciding to change. And most of this information has come from sources that Christians condemn.

I have also learned that all of us have great intuition when we learn to listen to it. It makes no sense that the god of the bible would be giving this to me, because many things that have given me success are against the "rules." Teachings like the heart of man continually dwells on evil or that we are born depraved or that anything we do, however good, is like filthy rags.

Like I have said already, I have observed a tremendous amount of immaturity within Christian beliefs. That is why they don't produce results.

Doing the same thing over and over again getting the same unsuccessful results is the definition of insanity. So to suggest that I have to spend 20-30 years doing the same thing with no results is insanity.

It is only ego that prevents people from admitting that what they have chosen doesn't work. Once I learned that, I have chosen to only participate in things that produce results and quickly admit when whatever I have chosen isn't working. Life is too short to invest in lies.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

You're like a little kid.

Lol and this is one of the reasons I love Overaged.

I think there is a difference between being child like and childish.

"Says who?"

[Overaged]

?

[Overaged]

Moses did the same for 40 years so you have another ten, atleast to go

[fccool]

Well you are certainly free to assign what ever good I do to Jesus. I can attest that any changes that I have made are due to truth telling, good information based on results, and me deciding to change. And most of this information has come from sources that Christians condemn.

[cardw]

Moses did the same for 40 years so you have another ten, atleast to go

And look where that got him. A grave in the desert.

[Overaged]

The Bible says Moses is in heaven

[Overaged]

Quote:

- fccool: I have observed a tremendous amount of immaturity within Christian beliefs. That is why they don't produce results.

Quote:

- fccool: I believe that expectations are unrealistic or improperly explained.

It could be that they are imroperly "interpreted" by opposers. The Bible is quite clear:

Quote:

Pro_24:16 For a just man falleth seven times, and riseth up again: but the wicked shall fall into mischief.

Quote:

2Co 5:14 For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead:

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

2Co 5:16 Wherefore henceforth know we no man after the flesh: yea, though we have known Christ after the flesh, yet now henceforth know we him no more.

2Co 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Quote:

-fccool: Sure, these are rather immature views and narrow perspective,

Mat_7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

The gospel is simply wonderful; and wonderfully simple. Those who make it out to be so "complicated," indeed do not understand it. But that may or may not be their fault; certainly "Christianity" in and of itself is not to blame, for not one acusation against it in this or other threads has been even close to proven.

Quote:

Paul was an eloquent speaker. Before his conversion he

252

had often sought to impress his hearers by flights of oratory. But now he set all this aside. Instead of indulging in poetic descriptions and fanciful representations, which might please the senses and feed the imagination, but which would not touch the daily experience, Paul sought by the use of simple language to bring home to the heart the truths that are of vital importance. Fanciful representations of truth may cause an ecstasy of feeling, but all too often truths presented in this way do not supply the food necessary to strengthen and fortify the believer for the battles of life. The immediate needs, the present trials, of struggling souls--these must be met with sound, practical instruction in the fundamental principles of Christianity. {AA 251.3}

The increased success that Paul had in presenting Christ, roused the unbelieving Jews to more determined opposition. They rose in a body and "made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat" of Gallio, who was then proconsul of Achaia. They expected that the authorities, as on former occasions, would side with them; and with loud, angry voices they uttered their complaints against the apostle, saying, "This fellow persuadeth men to worship God contrary to the law."

I believe that we are seeing this same "more determined opposition" on this forum, because this forum is having increasing success in reaching people for Christ.

[cardw]

Christianity at the very least is a metaphorical perspective on problems in the world. It's not illogical perspective when you don't interpret every single word of it literally.

[CoAspen]

Cool! Some very good thoughts!

[fccool]

Quote:

This view is not obvious when you read the Bible or Ellen White. You can only come to this view through reasoning. If you read the Bible literally you won't come up with this. And you certainly won't come up with this reading Ellen White.

If this was what Christianity was all about we wouldn't have near the conflict. As it stands we have almost 40,000 different views of what it means to be a Christian. I don't see any rational reason to embrace such a mass of confusion. Talk about Babylon. LOL

Yet, isn't that the point? The issue becomes when you are taught to sit in the pew and obey a very specific interpretation, trespassing which would be a sin... or you can understand that all of our "Christian" experience is subjective, and thus we have to paint it in broad brushes in order to teach certain principles.

For example, relative to this discussion, if we take a pencil and draw "Working on Sabbath is wrong", then what does that mean? It does not take into account what Sabbath is, what is it for, how did it come about historically, how and why it would be observed.

Yet, when we paint in the broader brush of principles, the we can agree that setting aside a day where all of us can rest from our work, and come together in a family environment, hang out and discuss our struggles, goals and perspectives... it does not sound terrible. It's an issue of benefit, and not an issue of life and death.

What I find the most ironic about Adventist take on Sabbath is that it does exactly the same thing that they claim the Catholic church would do in the end.

- You should not buy and sell

- It's enforced from the top down

- It's becomes a choice between life and death

- It's a claim of either rejecting or accepting God

- It's pushed through duty, fear and guilt

So, I find that instead of it becoming a principle that other people love because it's awesome, it becomes an issue of "can I do that without offending God".

And that's what protestant Christianity is in essence. It's a mirror reflection of Catholicism, that thrives on self-punishment, and yet it claims that it's not. And that's the reason why people actually suffer through a lot of the liturgy in church, no matter how boring or dull it is. They subconsciously view it as a redemptive suffering that one has to go through in order to view God's favor.

All of Christianity today is essentially a Catholic mix of pagan tradition with some deviation towards "Biblical truths".

- The visible aspect of "the church" is not the body of people who visible change the world for the better in such a way that the evening news celebrate their achievements every night... it is rather a building full of people in uncomfortable wooden benches that all face forward to hear 2-3 people speak or sing. That becomes the extend of "the church". That's not Christianity. That's not what Christ did.

True Christianity reflects the idea that you express a certain ideals in your own life... because you want to, and because you believe that Creator of this world reflects such ideals apart from whatever people say about Him.

Christianity was a radical departure from ancient Judaism, where State-enforced religion was the essence of "godly living". The only choice you've had was to either remain in "the church" and follow the rules, or be stoned or banished. In essence, that's the "Christian" aspect that the Catholic church picked up and amplified. And, whether they admit it or not, most of the churches today are built based on blueprints of Catholicism. Adventism is not exception. I can list plenty of "Christian tradition" that's essentially Catholic invention, yet Adventist embraces it and defends it as its own.

The point being, most of the people on this board will tell you that to be considered Christian, you have to swallow the "blue pill" of ignorance and embrace the culture of observing tradition that becomes the essence of Christianity. They will ask you to give oaths, to embrace the creeds, to observe religious holidays. They will ask you to become the carbon copy of the ideals that they invent.

I understand why you would be against it, as any thinking individual should be. You say that:

Quote:

If this was what Christianity was all about we wouldn't have near the conflict.

But, you as individual don't have to give into the ideals of "Churchianity" that worships a mental effigy of "god" that they collectively erect. You can be true to yourself, and embrace the eternal principles with possibility that these do have divine origin, and that ignorance or reward is in consequences of adhering to these principles, and not merely the double-jeopardy of burning in hell, or whatever terrible punishment is devised in the life after death, or at the world's end.

One does not have to be Baptist, Methodist, or Adventist... to be a Christian. Christianity follows example of Christ. Modern Christianity, including Adventism, follows the model set forward by Catholic church... as Ironic as it may sound.

[John317]

cardw, do you recall these words?

"Many of you say, 'I have prayed, I have tried, I have struggled, and I do not see that I advance one step.' What is the trouble? Have you not thought you were earning something, that you were by your struggles and works paying the price of your redemption? This you can never do... Take the gift of God... Plead the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." Signs of the Times, Vol.2, p.488.

"The proud heart strives to earn his salvation." D.A.300.

"Many are losing the right way, in consequence of thinking that they must climb to Heaven, that they must do something to merit the favour of God. This they can never accomplish." Ibid, 368.

"We have long desired and tried to obtain the blessings of the covenant of grace but have not received them because we have cherished the idea that we could do something to make ourselves worthy of them." Faith and Works, p.36.

But "When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress, from strength to strength and from victory to victory." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.364; F.W.94.

[Overaged]

cardw, do you recall these words?

"Many of you say, 'I have prayed, I have tried, I have struggled, and I do not see that I advance one step.' What is the trouble? Have you not thought you were earning something, that you were by your struggles and works paying the price of your redemption? This you can never do... Take the gift of God... Plead the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour." Signs of the Times, Vol.2, p.488.

"The proud heart strives to earn his salvation." D.A.300.

"Many are losing the right way, in consequence of thinking that they must climb to Heaven, that they must do something to merit the favour of God. This they can never accomplish." Ibid, 368.

"We have long desired and tried to obtain the blessings of the covenant of grace but have not received them because we have cherished the idea that we could do something to make ourselves worthy of them." Faith and Works, p.36.

But "When we seek to gain Heaven through the merits of Christ, the soul makes progress, from strength to strength and from victory to victory." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.364; F.W.94.

[ClubV12]

Even repentance itself is not an object to restrict our access in some way to Christ. Without Him, there can be no repentance. When we need Him most is when we don't even sense our need.

[John317]

Perspective of love is broad, because it takes into account people's situation. It understands them, instead of condemning them. There are rights and wrongs, but these are not above people. The moment the law becomes above the ones that it was created for, it essentially becomes void of love. There's no love in such law, and there's little love in such Christianity, because it's love is conditional.

Originally Posted By: cardw

This view is not obvious when you read the Bible or Ellen White. You can only come to this view through reasoning. If you read the Bible literally you won't come up with this. And you certainly won't come up with this reading Ellen White.

If this was what Christianity was all about we wouldn't have near the conflict. As it stands we have almost 40,000 different views of what it means to be a Christian. I don't see any rational reason to embrace such a mass of confusion. Talk about Babylon. LOL

Originally Posted By: fccool

Yet, isn't that the point?

If you both believe that, you aren't reading the Bible or Ellen G. White very well.

What do you think John 3: 16, 17 are all about:

John 3:16-17

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.

Here's Ellen G. White:

Quote:

In every precept that Christ taught, he was expounding his own life. God's holy law was magnified in this living representative. He was the revealer of the infinite mind. He uttered no uncertain sentiments or opinions, but pure and holy truth. "Every one that is of the truth," he said, "heareth my voice." He has built no walls so high that the nations of the earth cannot be benefited by his light-bearers, his representatives. He invites men to take a close view of God in himself, in the infinite love therein expressed. "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." He so loved the world that he could give nothing less. Having undertaken the work of man's redemption, the Father would spare nothing, however dear, which was essential for the completion of his work. He would make opportunities for men; he would pour upon them his blessings; he would heap favor upon favor, gift upon gift, until the whole treasury of heaven was open to those whom he came to save. Having collected all the riches of the universe, and laid open all the resources of his divine nature, God gave them all for the use of man. They were his free gift. What an ocean of love is circulating, like a divine atmosphere, around the world! What manner of love is this, that the eternal God should adopt human nature in the person of his Son, and carry the same into the highest heaven! {YI, July 29, 1897 par. 7}

God suffered with His Son. In the agony of Gethsemane, the death of Calvary, the heart of Infinite Love paid the price of our redemption. . . . Nothing less than the infinite sacrifice made by Christ in behalf of fallen man could express the Father's love to lost humanity. . . . {AG 188.3}

The price paid for our redemption, the infinite sacrifice of our heavenly Father in giving His Son to die for us, should give us exalted conceptions of what we may become through Christ. As the inspired apostle John beheld the height, the depth, the breadth of the Father's love toward the perishing race, he was filled with adoration and reverence; and, failing to find suitable language in which to express the greatness and tenderness of this love, he called upon the world to behold it. . . . What a value this places upon man! Through transgression, the sons of man become subjects of Satan. Through faith in the atoning sacrifice of Christ, the sons of Adam may become the sons of God. By assuming human nature, Christ elevates humanity. Fallen men are placed where, through connection with Christ, they may indeed become worthy of the name, "sons of God." {AG 188.4}

Such love is without a parallel. Children of the heavenly King! Precious promise! Theme of the most profound meditation! The matchless love of God for a world that did not love Him! {AG 188.5}

[fccool]

Sure,

I don't dispute that Biblical Message revolves around the idea. I don't dispute that much of E.G. White's writings mention the idea.

What matter is what part the Church decides to dwell on, practice and emphasize.

[fccool]

The Bible says Moses is in heaven

Where does it say that?