Buying groceries on sabbath

[CoAspen]

Cardw, you are right to reject the type of God that expect you to 'serve' Him out of fear, being afraid of. Why would anyone claim to belive in such a being? Spend your whole life fearing that you are doing something wrong? Waiting for 'bolt' out of the sky?

Not me either! But then the God I believe in must be different!

Hmmmm......

[John317]

A mature Christian doesn't worship and love God out of fear. That is, he doesn't do it because he's afraid of God and afraid of the consequences of what would happen if he doesn't worship and obey God. But it would be foolish to refuse to obey God simply in order to demonstrate that one is not afraid of God.

However, God has used fear in order to get people's attention, kind of like hitting a mule over the head to get its attention.

But God doesn't intend for people to worship and obey Him out of fear in heaven or on the new earth. That won't be the motive of those who spend eternity with God. Their only motives will be reverence, admiration, gratitude, and love for their Creator and Savior. Considering the history of salvation, why in the world wouldn't they?

[John317]

A reading of the prophets will help you to see that if people are in rebellion against God and refusing to obey Him, God uses the motive of fear to help them see the danger they are in. We don't help such people by telling them there's nothing that an unrepentant, unconverted sinner needs to be afraid of. That would be a lie, anyway. The entire Old Testament is really a lesson for us about what happens to people who go their own way and ignore the commandments of God.

Listen to the following appeals by God's inspired prophets:

Matthew 7:13-14

"Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. [14] For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few.

Matthew 7:21-23

"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. [22] On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?' [23] And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.'

Eccles. 12:13-14

Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man. [14] For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

Isaiah 1:16-20

Wash yourselves; make yourselves clean;

remove the evil of your deeds from before my eyes;

cease to do evil,

[17] learn to do good;

seek justice,

correct oppression;

bring justice to the fatherless,

plead the widow's cause.

[18] "Come now, let us reason together, says the Lord:

though your sins are like scarlet,

they shall be as white as snow;

though they are red like crimson,

they shall become like wool.

[19] If you are willing and obedient,

you shall eat the good of the land;

[20] but if you refuse and rebel,

you shall be eaten by the sword;

for the mouth of the Lord has spoken."

[John317]

Do you believe these texts:

Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Hebrews 9:27-28

And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: [28] So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

NOTE: Jesus will return for those who "look for him," and when He comes the second time, He won't be coming to deal with sin. He will be coming to take home those who are looking for him.

Let's look at the cold, hard facts.

What will happen at that time to those who aren't looking for Him?

If someone says this is about fear, then we can say the same thing to people who refuse to obey the Red Light because they don't want to be motivated by fear. So they go through the Red light, and what happens to them?

People die that way, right? Is it sensible not to tell people about the red light because we don't want people to be motivated by fear? If not, then it isn't sensible to ignore God's warnings about what will happen if people refuse to obey God's commands.

When people die because of disobeying the rule about red lights, they only go to sleep for a while.

When people die because of disobeying God, they will go to sleep eternally.

What's more important to know: the rule about the red light or the rule about listening and paying attention to God?

[phkrause]

I don't believe that CoA believe's that either, if I'm reading him correctly.

[John317]

Doesn't believe what, either, pk?

[phkrause]

The "fear" that cardw is talking about.

[cardw]

Do you believe these texts:

Hebrews 11:6

And without faith it is impossible to please him, for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

[ClubV12]

I was talking to a friend today who suggested the anguish of the wicked when they are consumed is mental anguish, mental anguish according to their every deed written in the book, some longer, some shorter, some in an instant. FOLLOWED BY an instantaneous consumption of their physical being and an eternal blotting out of their soul. Don't know if that holds water, but I found it an interesting thought on the subject.

Certainly mental anguish will play a major roll, death will be a welcome relief. The greatest disappointment will be reconizing what they have thrown away, seeing the love, beauty, harmony of the heavenly city, it's inhabitants, the glory of God and being shut out from it. By their own choice.

I know in my experience the greatest "pain" I've ever suffered has been mental anguish.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

There it is. The magic incantation response.

There is no way that you could possibly know this.

Looks like you just shared your incantation with us. One will always find what they are looking for.

That's very true.

That's how gods get made up. You decide to look for them and wonder of wonders one just like you thought up appears.

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]quote=cardw]

There it is. The magic incantation response.

There is no way that you could possibly know this. /quote]Looks like you just shared your incantation with us. One will always find what they are looking for. /quote]

That's very true.

That's how gods get made up. You decide to look for them and wonder of wonders one just like you thought up appears.

Well; the God I know certainly was not what I was looking for; He found me.

[Pockey]

I don't see it as reward/punishment, but I understand thats where the concept starts. Fear IS the beginning of wisdom.

But this is really about vindicating Gods Government, standing for whats right, regardless of the reward. Sometimes a person just has to take a stand for his family, country, civilization or in this case, for His God. I will stand with my God, who has been accused of the most terrible things, as He is being accused of right now on this thread. But it is not His doing, it's the evil one lieing to people about the character of God. I will stand for God, no matter the cost, no matter the reward, because it's the right thing to do. Justice will prevail in the end and the evil one and all his followers will be revealed for what they really are, rebels against the government of God. The war, the great controversy must come to an end. Evil must be put away, forever, there will be no place left for the rebels to hide, they will be destroyed. This is WAR, not war games, people die in wars, this one is no exception, this war is very real and deadly serious.

[Overaged]

I was talking to a friend today who suggested the anguish of the wicked when they are consumed is mental anguish, mental anguish according to their every deed written in the book, some longer, some shorter, some in an instant. FOLLOWED BY an instantaneous consumption of their physical being and an eternal blotting out of their soul.

Wow. Doesn't that sound exciting. Thanks for the "Good News."

[fccool]

Quote:

I don't see it as reward/punishment, but I understand that's where the concept starts. Fear IS the beginning of wisdom.

I think you misunderstand fear in context here.

Moses said to the people, "Do not be afraid. God has come to test you, so that the fear of God will be with you to keep you from sinning."

Fear in this context is not "I'm so scared, I'm in panic, in panic, I'm frightened of you" . Fear should be understood as respect.

This world does not need fear. Fear drives people to do fairly crazy things. It needs mutual respect through love.

Respect denotes understanding and consideration. Consideration and understanding is the beginning of wisdom. Fear , as in being afraid of something is, will only have them do things for the wrong reasons.

[ClubV12]

Fear is indeed respect and humility for those who understand and even minimally accept God.

But for those who have totally rejected Him, scoff at Him, fear should, does and will have an entirely different meaning. There going to die, their fear will turn to abject terror at some point, fear as defined in it's most ugly way. If such do not fear death in this life, they will fear and then welcome it in the next. When EVERY knee shall bow.

We have biblical examples of Godly men coming close to God in a real and physical sense, or angels, and literally fearing for their life as well. For who can behold even a fraction of the glory of God?

[fccool]

Belief in something does not necessitate the inevitability of that belief. You can't blame people for not believing something due to lack of proof.

Richard's statements are not unreasonable. You can't blame people for honestly looking at the situation and seeing that perhaps things could be different.

What makes a difference whether you decide to focus on ideals, or you decide to focus on legalisms of Christianity.

I think that I could find a Spirit of encouraging cooperation based on shared ideals with people like Richard. I don't have to impose my views on them. I can agree that people around us should not be viewed as potential "robots that we can re-program". Neither should we judge the outcome based on our narrow understanding.

The things can pan out either way based on the evidence we have. God may or may not exist. That's something that's in the realm of "unknown" in epistemological sense of knowing.

-The Bible is not how we "know" that God exists or not.

-"Spiritual experience" or lack of it is not proof of His existence or non-existence

- The complex reality is not proof of exists or non-existence of God.

If you need a God to exist, with all of the laws and rules, in order for you to have compassion and support for your fellow human beings... and you claim that people who don't believe and yet have compassion and love are destined for hell....

what good is your religion? That God in that case only cares about recognition, and not the purpose for which the world is created.

People can do things for the wrong reasons, and I believe that the majority of Christianity is the case of that.

[ClubV12]

Rich and everyone else can believe whatever they want. Basing whatever beliefs you have on logic, reason and math does not work in the spiritual realm. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

In the spiritual realm, Richards statements are entirely unreasonable. In the worldy realm, requiring scientific proof, the world considers them reasonable because they have no spiritual anchor.

The choice is simple, you put your trust in man and man's wisdom thus requiring proof or you put your trust in God, requiring faith. Some people get it, but most don't.

The people of Noah's day trusted in man, who concluded, correctly, that rain was impossible. Based on the laws of physics and science as they existed at that time. They got it right, all the "scientific data" absolutely supported their logic, reason and math, rain WAS impossible. But WHO wrote the laws of physics, science and climate change? They had little or no concept of the God who created the Universe. He is able to make the sun stand still, or even go backward at His command, or make it rain, or change the laws of physics as He see's fit. The author of such laws will do with them as it pleases Him.

[Overaged]

In the spiritual realm, Richards statements are entirely unreasonable. In the worldy realm, requiring scientific proof, the world considers them reasonable because they have no spiritual anchor.

[cardw]

Rich and everyone else can believe whatever they want. Basing whatever beliefs you have on logic, reason and math does not work in the spiritual realm.

[Overaged]

This is an ego driven belief that you are part of a special group, because "most people don't get it." It also makes you vulnerable to following whoever can convince you they are speaking for god. Because god does not speak to you directly. You have abandoned reason, the only tool we humans really have of determining outcomes.

We are part of a special group - and faith is actually based on reason. We reason that Jesus is real, and that He loves us, and that He came to seek and to save that which was lost.

[BobRyan]

Bob you are using the magic incantation defense here. Quote the Bible and you don't have to make sense because the Words of the Bible have magical logic powers that confound the wise.

It confounds the wise because it's nonsense.

Cardw - your argument is pure nonsense. You come to a Christian discussion board and expect to have it granted "as a given" that to "quote the Bible is nonsense".

You are supposed to use that a priori style assumption on an atheist board - you cannot come to a Christian board expect your "the bible is nonsense" fiction to be accepted "as a given" to thus appeal to your "so please don't quote it as if that proves something" conclusion.

Are you reading what you write?

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

cardw says,

"...based on evidence."

Logic, reason, math and science are not enough for some, so lets add "evidence" to the list.

There was no "evidence" (or, reason, logic, math, science) that it had ever rained in Noahs time. The conclusion was; "Impossible". They firmly believed that, right up until the time they were all swept away,,,, and died.

We could add more reasons to the list that unbelievers hang their doubts on, but I think we've covered it suffciently.

[Overaged]

Logic, reason, math and science are not enough for some, so lets add "evidence" to the list.

There was no "evidence" (or, reason, logic, math, science) that it had ever rained in Noahs time. The conclusion was; "Impossible". They firmly believed that, right up until the time they were all swept away,,,, and died.

We could add more reasons to the list that unbelievers hang their doubts on, but I think we've covered it suffciently.

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Heb_11:1.

[fccool]

Quote:

Basing whatever beliefs you have on logic, reason and math does not work in the spiritual realm. Spiritual things are spiritually discerned.

What does that mean? Do you use your spiritual brain to discern them?

[fccool]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Heb_11:1.

If I have faith in invisible magical unicorns, does it mean that that face is the evidence for their existence .

That's not the meaning of that text. That text is saying that through your faith (which is kind action towards your fellow human beings) the visible aspects of invisible ideals are manifested. It does not mean that faith in itself is the evidence.