Buying groceries on sabbath

[Overaged]

quote=Overaged]

"Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen" Heb_11:1.

/quote]

If I have faith in invisible magical unicorns, does it mean that that face is the evidence for their existence .

That's not the meaning of that text. That text is saying that through your faith (which is kind action towards your fellow human beings) the visible aspects of invisible ideals are manifested. It does not mean that faith in itself is the evidence.

[Overaged]

Chap. 98 - The Act of Faith

Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. Hebrews 11:1. {HP 104.1}

Faith is not the ground of our salvation, but it is the great blessing --the eye that sees, the ear that hears, the feet that run, the hand that grasps. It is the means, not the end. If Christ gave His life to save sinners, why shall I not take that blessing? My faith grasps it, and thus my faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things unseen. Thus resting and believing, I have peace with God through the Lord Jesus Christ. {HP 104.2}

Faith, saving faith . . . is the act of the soul by which the whole man is given over to the guardianship and control of Jesus Christ. He abides in Christ and Christ abides in the soul by faith as supreme. The believer commits his soul and body to God, and with assurance may say, Christ is able to keep that which I have committed unto Him against that day. All who will do this will be saved unto life eternal. There will be an assurance that the soul is washed in the blood of Christ and clothed with His righteousness and precious in the sight of Jesus. {HP 104.3}

Remember that the exercise of faith is the one means of preserving it. Should you sit always in one position, without moving, your muscles would become strengthless and your limbs would lose the power of motion. The same is true in regard to your religious experience. You must have faith in the promises of God. . . . Faith will perfect itself in exercise and activity. {HP 104.4}

It is of the greatest importance to us that we surround the soul with the atmosphere of faith. Every day we are deciding our own eternal destiny in harmony with the atmosphere that surrounds the soul. We are individually accountable for the influence that we exert, and consequences that we do not see will result from our words and actions. If God would have saved Sodom for the sake of ten righteous persons, what would be the influence for good that might go out as the result of the faithfulness of the people of God if every one who professed the name of Christ were also clothed with His righteousness? {HP 104.5}

Chap. 99 - Faith Versus Sight

For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for? Romans 8:24. {HP 105.1}

Our Saviour asks the question, "When the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8), implying that true faith would be almost extinct. It is too true that the spirit of doubt, criticism, and faultfinding is destroying confidence in God's Word and in His work. It is impossible for the carnal mind to understand or appreciate the work of God. All who desire to doubt or cavil will find occasion. . . . Those who in humility of heart follow the light as it shines upon them will receive clearer light, while those who refuse to obey till they can see all occasion for doubt removed, will be left in darkness. {HP 105.2}

God gives us sufficient evidence to enable us to accept the truth understandingly, but He does not propose to remove all occasion for doubt and unbelief. Should He do this, there would no longer be a necessity for the exercise of faith; for we would be able to walk by sight. All who with a teachable spirit study the Word of God may learn therefrom the way of salvation, yet they may not be able to understand every portion of the Sacred Record. . . . Whatever is clearly established by the Word of God we should accept, without attempting to meet every doubt which Satan may suggest, or with our finite understanding to fathom the counsels of the infinite One, or to criticize the manifestations of His grace or power. . . . {HP 105.3}

If we seek in humility to learn the will of God as revealed in His Word, and then obey that will as it is made plain to our understanding, we shall become rooted and grounded in the truth. Said Christ: "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine" (John 7:17). . . . {HP 105.4}

Let us draw nearer and nearer to the pure light of Heaven, remembering that divine illumination will increase according to our onward movements, qualifying us to meet new responsibilities and emergencies. The path of the just is progressive, from strength to strength, from grace to grace, and from glory to glory. {HP 105.5}

[BobRyan]

cardw says,

"...based on evidence."

Logic, reason, math and science are not enough for some, so lets add "evidence" to the list.

There was no "evidence" (or, reason, logic, math, science) that it had ever rained in Noahs time. The conclusion was; "Impossible". They firmly believed that, right up until the time they were all swept away,,,, and died.

We could add more reasons to the list that unbelievers hang their doubts on, but I think we've covered it suffciently.

The bible says that even the pagans are "without excuse" for the "invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in the things that have been made" Romans 1.

In fact irrefutable proofs have been given (such as those from Daniel 2) so that even hardened atheist scientists like Walter Veith are convinced and yeild up their blind faith in evolutionism.

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

Excellent stuff OA. Kind of reminds of Jesus' parables, how many of the pharaees could not figure out what they meant, but yet many of the so-called common people had no problem understanding what was being said.

[cardw]

cardw says,

"...based on evidence."

Logic, reason, math and science are not enough for some, so lets add "evidence" to the list.

There was no "evidence" (or, reason, logic, math, science) that it had ever rained in Noahs time. The conclusion was; "Impossible". They firmly believed that, right up until the time they were all swept away,,,, and died.

We could add more reasons to the list that unbelievers hang their doubts on, but I think we've covered it suffciently.

There's no evidence that Noah filled an ark with all the known animals and lived in it for a year. This is clearly a fairy tale. And you refer to it as evidence. LOL

Well I'm glad you are able to declare yourself the winner. Now what?

[Overaged]

Chap. 33 - Safe Inside

And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Genesis 7:1. {CC 39.1}

Noah had faithfully followed the instructions which he had received from God. The ark was finished in every part as the Lord had directed, and was stored with food for man and beast. And now the servant of God made his last solemn appeal to the people. With an agony of desire that words cannot express, he entreated them to seek a refuge while it might be found. Again they rejected his words, and raised their voices in jest and scoffing. Suddenly a silence fell upon the mocking throng. Beasts of every description, the fiercest as well as the most gentle, were seen coming from mountain and forest and quietly making their way toward the ark. A noise as of a rushing wind was heard, and lo, birds were flocking from all directions, their numbers darkening the heavens, and in perfect order they passed to the ark. Animals obeyed the command of God, while men were disobedient. {CC 39.2}

When they saw the beasts come from the forests to the door of the ark, and Noah take them in, they had so long resisted, so long denied the message that God had given them, that . . . conscience had become unimpressible. {CC 39.3}

Mercy had ceased its pleadings for the guilty race. The beasts of the field and the birds of the air had entered the place of refuge. Noah and his household were within the ark, "and the Lord shut him in." . . . The massive door, which it was impossible for those within to close, was slowly swung to its place by unseen hands. Noah was shut in, and the rejecters of God's mercy were shut out. The seal of Heaven was on that door; God had shut it, and God alone could open it. So when Christ shall cease His intercession for guilty men, before His coming in the clouds of heaven, the door of mercy will be shut. Then divine grace will no longer restrain the wicked, and Satan will have full control of those who have rejected mercy. They will endeavor to destroy God's people; but as Noah was shut into the ark, so the righteous will be shielded by divine power. {CC 39.4}

[cardw]

The bible says that even the pagans are "without excuse" for the "invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in the things that have been made" Romans 1.

In fact irrefutable proofs have been given (such as those from Daniel 2) so that even hardened atheist scientists like Walter Veith are convinced and yeild up their blind faith in evolutionism.

in Christ,

Bob

Walter Veith is hardly a reliable authority on anything with his conspiracy theories and his plain bad science. He is not free from major conflict with the Adventist Church itself.

And evolution doesn't rely on faith. It relies on current evidence. And no one holds to any doctrine or article of faith. That's why evolution is continually revised so that arguments against evolutionary claims even 5 years ago are obsolete.

Christians are without excuse in their ignorance of evolution because the internet provides copious amounts of evidence and explanation which creationists largely ignore.

Just like you ignore most of my points and go off on this magic incantational Bible quoting responses fighting the big bad atheist. It's all ego driven.

[cardw]

Chap. 33 - Safe Inside

And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Genesis 7:1. {CC 39.1}

etc, etc, etc.

and more magic incantations.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Bob you are using the magic incantation defense here. Quote the Bible and you don't have to make sense because the Words of the Bible have magical logic powers that confound the wise.

It confounds the wise because it's nonsense.

Cardw - your argument is pure nonsense. You come to a Christian discussion board and expect to have it granted "as a given" that to "quote the Bible is nonsense".

in Christ,

Bob

It's nonsense because even you can't explain what it means.

Your ability to produce any logical explanation is given away to simply quoting texts as if they explain themselves.

What does spiritual things are spiritually discerned mean?

Can you explain it without quoting other cliches?

What does "in Christ" mean.

You put it in all your posts and as far as I can tell it doesn't mean anything.

When something doesn't mean anything it's called nonsense.

[BobRyan]

Bob you are using the magic incantation defense here. Quote the Bible and you don't have to make sense because the Words of the Bible have magical logic powers that confound the wise.

It confounds the wise because it's nonsense.

[BobRyan]

The bible says that even the pagans are "without excuse" for the "invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in the things that have been made" Romans 1.

In fact irrefutable proofs have been given (such as those from Daniel 2) so that even hardened atheist scientists like Walter Veith are convinced and yeild up their blind faith in evolutionism.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

And evolution doesn't rely on faith. It relies on current evidence. And no one holds to any doctrine or article of faith. That's why evolution is continually revised so that arguments against evolutionary claims even 5 years ago are obsolete.

Wrong.

The same dead beat storytelling for evolutionism is alive today. In fact the much discredited horse series is STILL on display at the Smithsonian.

The never-observed-in-actual-science "birds come from reptiles" fictions and "animals come from plants" fiction is still the mantra of by faith alone evolutionism. Hint: What is "observed" in actual nature is that "birds come from birds".

The never-observed-in-actual-science fiction about eukaryote animals "acquiring" new coding genes and become new distinct genomes over time - has yet to be observed - even once.

The law of entropy - still observed every day in the lab - holds true in ALL chemical reactions (even to this very day) without any appeal at all to the sun god to bail out the evolutionist - as long as the local reaction and its immediate environment are taken into account.

Evolutionism is a by faith alone - dead religion.

Your "fantastic fiction" about evolutionism twisting and turning so fast in its never ending "shell game" that any complaint about its nonscience nature even 5 years old is no longer valid since evolutionism would have twisted and turned and swapped shells by now - only shows the desperate nonscience lengths to which your faith in fiction has gone.

in Christ,

Bob

[cardw]

Your own arguments are

1. I - cardw - am not saved, am not a Christian, reject the Gospel.

2. I should be able to understand all spiritual things no matter what the Bible says to the contrary - so quoting the Bible in that regard is nonsense to me.

As if that kind of argument on your part is supposed to make sense to us.

in Christ,

Bob

But your argument here is based on your claim that you have "magic Jedi mind powers" that I don't.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

The bible says that even the pagans are "without excuse" for the "invisible attributes of God are clearly seen in the things that have been made" Romans 1.

In fact irrefutable proofs have been given (such as those from Daniel 2) so that even hardened atheist scientists like Walter Veith are convinced and yeild up their blind faith in evolutionism.

Originally Posted By: cardw

Walter Veith is hardly a reliable authority on anything with his conspiracy theories and his plain bad science.

Walter Veith in that example above is being used as an authority on 'his own life's testimony' to the fact that He did change from being an atheist to a Christian.

I can give a far longer list of devout Christians who became atheists.

According to the latest Census, if non belief was a religion it would be the fastest growing religion of all time.

[ClubV12]

Nothing news worthy in that statement Rich, unbelief has always been wide spread and it's clear the vast majority will not accept chrisitianity. Never have, never will. But if you find comfort staying with the herd, knock yourself out.

[Guest]

So that's what he's doing. Staying with the herd. I knew it had to be something.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

Walter Veith is hardly a reliable authority on anything with his conspiracy theories and his plain bad science.

And your nonsensical response is that because his wife's parents were involved in the occult and new about its various connections - THEN Walter Veith is now unnable to tell us about his OWN life and the things that convinced him to drop atheism.

[cardw]

Nothing news worthy in that statement Rich, unbelief has always been wide spread and it's clear the vast majority will not accept chrisitianity. Never have, never will. But if you find comfort staying with the herd, knock yourself out.

Actually Christianity is still the majority in the world. You're not even twisting the facts. You're ignoring them again.

This has nothing to do with my comfort.

Bob is saying that one atheist converting to Christianity is proof of his point.

I'm just pointing out that it's proof of nothing.

[cardw]

So that's what he's doing. Staying with the herd. I knew it had to be something.

You're still with the largest herd Richard.

Christianity is still the majority in the world.

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Nothing news worthy in that statement Rich, unbelief has always been wide spread and it's clear the vast majority will not accept chrisitianity. Never have, never will. But if you find comfort staying with the herd, knock yourself out.

This has nothing to do with my comfort.

Bob is saying that one atheist converting to Christianity is proof of his point.

I'm just pointing out that it's proof of nothing.

You didn't point out anything. You are making up atheist fairy tales and fiction, and stating them as "evidence" against christianity.

[cardw]

You are making up atheist fairy tales and fiction, and stating them as "evidence" against christianity.

I'm going to give a response this post deserves...

Did not!!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

Nothing news worthy in that statement Rich, unbelief has always been wide spread and it's clear the vast majority will not accept chrisitianity. Never have, never will. But if you find comfort staying with the herd, knock yourself out.

This has nothing to do with my comfort.

Bob is saying that one atheist converting to Christianity is proof of his point.

I'm just pointing out that it's proof of nothing.

[BobRyan]

Walter Veith is hardly a reliable authority on anything with his conspiracy theories and his plain bad science.

[ClubV12]

cardw says,

"Actually Christianity is still the majority in the world."

That point could be argued compared to Muslims, but the point is well taken. Majority or minority rule is not something I base my beliefs on. There is no question a majority of christians, muslims, agnostics and atheists will suffer eternal death.

It's a "remnant", and even a remnnat OF the remnant that will endure to the end.

How many made it in Noah's day? The hurd, whatever it is comprised of, offers no safety.

[Guest]

You're still with the largest herd Richard.

Christianity is still the majority in the world.

Not the largest herd, but God's herd. The little adventist flock. And you are sticking close to us. I am glad we can help. Even if it is in a small way. Did you know that there are people here praying for you?