Buying groceries on sabbath

[Overaged]

Originally Posted By: fccool

Heretics doubted because they "loved sin and witchcraft", right?

Most of the "heretics" you're talking about were considered heretics because they didn't accept false doctrines but taught directly from the Bible. Many were killed just for being in possession of the Bible, or portions of it, in the common langauge.

I really am grateful for the way you are clarifying the isues and questions here...I am learning a lot. Thanks for your hard work and dedication.

[John317]

Quote:

Disguise it as they may, the real cause of doubt and skepticism, in most cases, is the love of sin.

Huh? It's like saying that doubting atheism and evolution is a disguise of love of ignorance and stupidity.

Check out what the Bible says below:

Quote:

Proverbs 9:10

The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom,

and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight.

1 Cor. 1:18-21

For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. [19] For it is written,

"I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,

and the discernment of the discerning I will thwart."

[20] Where is the one who is wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? [21] For since, in the wisdom of God, the world did not know God through wisdom, it pleased God through the folly of what we preach to save those who believe.

1 Cor. 1:27-29

But God chose what is foolish in the world to shame the wise; God chose what is weak in the world to shame the strong; [28] God chose what is low and despised in the world, even things that are not, to bring to nothing things that are, [29] so that no human being might boast in the presence of God.

1 Cor. 2:14

The natural person does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are folly to him, and he is not able to understand them because they are spiritually discerned.

John 7:17

If anyone's will is to do God's will, he will know whether the teaching is from God or whether I am speaking on my own authority.

John 8:42-47

Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and I am here. I came not of my own accord, but he sent me. [43] Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. [44] You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies. [45] But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. [46] Which one of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? [47] Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

NOTE: Jesus Christ and the Bible support what Ellen White wrote in Steps To Christ, page 111.

The central reason for unbelief and atheism is exactly what Christ said it was. It really depends on the spiritual condition of our mind and heart. Do we want God? Do we want to know Truth? Are we really seeking it even it means we must deny ourselves?

When we love sin, and are unwilling to let it go, we will find reasons to reject God because we realize that an acknowledgement of God and His authority means we must change our lives and stop sinning.

Is there reason for doubt? Is there reason for atheism? Sure. God has not made it so that people have no way out of accepting Him. If people want to reject Him, He's made people free so they can do it.

If God wanted to, He could force people to acknowledge His existence and His power, but that is not how God works. He doesn't want people's forced worship. He only accepts worship which is offered intelligently and willingly.

[fccool]

Most of the "heretics" you're talking about were considered heretics because they didn't accept false doctrines but taught directly from the Bible. Many were killed just for being in possession of the Bible, or portions of it, in the common langauge.

[fccool]

Quote:

The central reason for unbelief and atheism is exactly what Christ said it was. It really depends on the spiritual condition of our mind and heart. Do we want God? Do we want to know Truth? Are we really seeking it even it means we must deny ourselves?

John, you are welcome into my house, but you are only allowed to come through my chimney. That's my will, and questioning it is rejecting a friendship with me.

So, why don't you want to climb through my chimney? Don't you want to be my friend? I have prepared a meal, and have expensive gifts for you. Yes, my house has doors and windows, but I want you to climb through the chimney.

Only a fool would not want to climb through my chimney to eat delicious food, and be my friend.

Quote:

When we love sin, and are unwilling to let it go, we will find reasons to reject God because we realize that an acknowledgement of God and His authority means we must change our lives and stop sinning.

If you are demented human being who does not understand that coming through my chimney is the only way to get into my house, then you don't understand how loving and caring I am as a host. Climb through my chimney and be friends with me.

Quote:

Is there reason for doubt? Is there reason for atheism? Sure. God has not made it so that people have no way out of accepting Him. If people want to reject Him, He's made people free so they can do it.

Why would you ever ask me why the doors are for? Is there any reasons for you to doubt that? Why are you asking me to give you the ladder, when I can tell you that you can jump on the roof if you wanted enough to be my friend? Don't you believe me? I know that people generally don't jump that high, but if you only truly accept my friendship and believe... you'll be able to do it, and then come through the chimney down to the delicious food! I'll be waiting for you and cheering you on through the door.

Quote:

If God wanted to, He could force people to acknowledge His existence and His power, but that is not how God works. He doesn't want people's forced worship. He only accepts worship which is offered intelligently and willingly.

If I wanted to, I would let you come through the door, after all, I come through that door anytime I want to. But it would only give you the wrong idea about how you are to relate to me. You have to want to be my friend, and thus you have to want to enter through the chimney, with no ladder to climb to the roof, but through power of my encouragement, you'll be able to jump on the roof... go through the chimney... BUT you would have to want it!

See, if I just invite you through the door, you would come in because you are pressured to do so by my hospitality, but if you come through the chimney, then I would know for sure that you really want to be friends with me.

If you don't want it, then I take it as offense, since I am a mayor of our town, and I'll leave you on the street homeless to die in the dirt for rejecting my invitation. I know that you have many questions, and that you would like them to be answered by me in person... but I can't do that, unless you jump on the roof, climb through the chimney, and then talk to me. But, my chimney is narrow, so better start loosing some weight.

I love you, John! Can't wait to be friends with you.

[BobRyan]

Christ gave up his life so that you could have eternal life.

In return - you owe him your life - your soul - your all... He is not offering a cotton candy salvation - but the real deal made available to you by the Sovereign God of all the Universe.

You may choose to clink to your earthly toys and trinkets - opting for a chance to experience the lake of fire event in Rev 20 if that really seems like a good deal to you.

God also gave you a brain - you are supposed to decide between the two choices.

But if you choose the life-terminating choice - do not go around blaming Eve for making a dumb choice for you are choosing far worse.

in Christ,

Bob

[Overaged]

John did not say he would not come in through the chimney. I'd be willing to bet if he could he would.

[Pockey]

I wasn't talking about you anyway. I was talking about Ellen White being arrogant for the benefit of all the people who read these threads.

My fault Cardw. I should have clarified. I don't believe her intent is to be arrogant. The last few sentences in that quote are intended to be good news.

[cardw]

Christ gave up his life so that you could have eternal life.

In return - you owe him your life - your soul - your all... He is not offering a cotton candy salvation - but the real deal made available to you by the Sovereign God of all the Universe.

You may choose to clink to your earthly toys and trinkets - opting for a chance to experience the lake of fire event in Rev 20 if that really seems like a good deal to you.

God also gave you a brain - you are supposed to decide between the two choices.

But if you choose the life-terminating choice - do not go around blaming Eve for making a dumb choice for you are choosing far worse.

in Christ,

Bob

This only shows that the core of Christianity is fear.

And instead of earthly toys and trinkets you are only waiting for heavenly toys and trinkets. I don't see the difference. You are bragging that you are denying yourself now. How is that superior?

There are a number of atheist charities and aide groups. For example...

Kiva Lending Team: Atheists, Agnostics, Skeptics, Freethinkers, Secular Humanists and the Non-Religious has provided $2,919,750 in loans to small business owners in the developing world at the time of this writing. They have helped 95680 business owners since the group formed in August of 2008.

They are a Kiva Lending Team, a group which provides small loans to people seeking to reach economic independence and to improve living conditions for their families and communities.

Most of these loans have gone to women.

There are a number of atheist surgeons who have gone overseas to help hundreds of women who have been gang raped so severely that they can no longer hold their abdominal contents in. They work 12 hours days, pay their own way there, and provide their own supplies.

The point is they are not trying to get to heaven. They are not trying to be good people. They are doing this purely out of compassion for people they don't even know.

It is offensive to suggest that they reject religion because of cherished sin or because they want earthly pleasures. And here you are debating whether or not you can get some d*#n groceries on the Sabbath. How immature can you get?

There is not even one doubt to me that Christianity is bankrupt.

[ClubV12]

"Fear" has a justifiable place in christianity, there is a heaven to win and a hell to shun. God has laws, obey and live, disobey and die. "Fear", in it's rawest most troubling form, abject terror, certain death, coming soon to a planet near you. Scoff if you will, but those are the cold hard facts.

[CoAspen]

"Fear" has a justifiable place in christianity, there is a heaven to win and a hell to shun. God has laws, obey and live, disobey and die. "Fear", in it's rawest most troubling form, abject terror, certain death, coming soon to a planet near you. Scoff if you will, but those are the cold hard facts.

Fear from the Greek:,phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear", is a distressing negative sensation induced by a perceived threat.

fear

noun

an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat

• archaic a mixed feeling of dread and reverence

I certainly hope the above definitions are not the type of 'fear' you are 'preaching'. That type of God would be no better than the ancient ones and would be no more real.

[BobRyan]

"Do not be arrogant but rather fear for you stand only by your faith. If God did not spare them - He will not spare you either" Rom 11.

Question. What is the context for "fear" in Romans 11??

Is it a warm fluffy kind of fear? how do you spin that?

[BobRyan]

Christ gave up his life so that you could have eternal life.

In return - you owe him your life - your soul - your all... He is not offering a cotton candy salvation - but the real deal made available to you by the Sovereign God of all the Universe.

You may choose to clink to your earthly toys and trinkets - opting for a chance to experience the lake of fire event in Rev 20 if that really seems like a good deal to you.

God also gave you a brain - you are supposed to decide between the two choices.

But if you choose the life-terminating choice - do not go around blaming Eve for making a dumb choice for you are choosing far worse.

in Christ,

Bob

[cardw]

Quote:

cardw said..-

..

Most of these loans have gone to women.

There are a number of atheist surgeons...

It is offensive to suggest that they reject religion because of cherished sin or because they want earthly pleasures.

Do you really think that "because there is an atheist surgeon" that God who is the sovereign of all the universe - must put His Word on hold, His Law on hold, His justice on hold???

Recall that in God's universe - there are no surgeons needed except in the one place where "man chose to side with Satan" and then suffer the immediate consequences of separation from the source of life.

Surely you see the fallacy in your "yes but there are atheist surgeons" solution.

Even Satan himself must have cause to lament the horrible mess he has made of his new home - when he compares it to his old one.

In Matthew 4 Satan admits to Christ that this world is "his" and he gives it to whomever he wishes. Thus the mess he has made of it - is by his own admission - his mess.

in Christ,

Bob

I don't even know what you are getting at here. The point I was making had nothing to do with the profession of the atheist. It had to do with the motivation for altruism.

Bob you are using the magic incantation defense here. Quote the Bible and you don't have to make sense because the Words of the Bible have magical logic powers that confound the wise.

It confounds the wise because it's nonsense.

[cardw]

"Fear" has a justifiable place in christianity, there is a heaven to win and a hell to shun. God has laws, obey and live, disobey and die. "Fear", in it's rawest most troubling form, abject terror, certain death, coming soon to a planet near you. Scoff if you will, but those are the cold hard facts.

These are not facts at all. They are scare tactics used to control people.

They are the lowest form of consciousness. A god that uses fear like this is treating people like dogs that need to be trained. It's offensive to someone who operates on empathy and understanding.

If a god like this was in charge one would be better off dead. Life would be oppressive.

This explains why religions have done such atrocities in the name of their particular version of god. That is why the world will be a better place once the superstition and ignorance of religion is gone.

[Overaged]

They are the lowest form of consciousness. A god that uses fear like this is treating people like dogs that need to be trained.

There are quite a few people who need to be trained.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

They are the lowest form of consciousness. A god that uses fear like this is treating people like dogs that need to be trained.

There are quite a few people who need to be trained.

You really consider a reward/punishment system the best idea that an all knowing god could come up with.

You must have a pretty low opinion of humans.

I guess god does treat us like Kings.... Here King, come here King....

[ClubV12]

I don't see it as reward/punishment, but I understand thats where the concept starts. Fear IS the beginning of wisdom.

But this is really about vindicating Gods Government, standing for whats right, regardless of the reward. Sometimes a person just has to take a stand for his family, country, civilization or in this case, for His God. I will stand with my God, who has been accused of the most terrible things, as He is being accused of right now on this thread. But it is not His doing, it's the evil one lieing to people about the character of God. I will stand for God, no matter the cost, no matter the reward, because it's the right thing to do. Justice will prevail in the end and the evil one and all his followers will be revealed for what they really are, rebels against the government of God. The war, the great controversy must come to an end. Evil must be put away, forever, there will be no place left for the rebels to hide, they will be destroyed. This is WAR, not war games, people die in wars, this one is no exception, this war is very real and deadly serious.

[John317]

...

If a god like this was in charge one would be better off dead. Life would be oppressive.

A God like what?

You apparently have an inaccurate, unbalanced view of the God of the Bible.

God's universe is a place of laws, both moral and physical laws. Violation of both types of laws have negative consequences.

If people don't want to spend eternity with God, they won't have to. The alternative is not good, though. God will one day soon have a clean, pure universe where all sin and sinners no longer exist. Only peace and love will reign, and if people are such that they won't be happy there, God won't force them to be. Since God refuses to have a permenant prison or concentration camp in His universe, the only alternative to living with God for eternity will be endless non-existence.

God appeals to everyone, "Look and live! O why will you die?"

[John317]

...

Fear from the Greek:,phóbos, meaning "fear" or "morbid fear", is a distressing negative sensation induced by a perceived threat.

fear

noun

an unpleasant emotion caused by the belief that someone or something is dangerous, likely to cause pain, or a threat

• archaic a mixed feeling of dread and reverence

I certainly hope the above definitions are not the type of 'fear' you are 'preaching'. That type of God would be no better than the ancient ones and would be no more real.

If that kind of fear is what's necessary to save a person from destruction, God will use it, just as a wise parent will use fear in order to save his child from certain death.

The Bible teaches that the beginning of wisdom is the fear of God. This fear is reverence for God, but it also means respect for God's power and the realization that God holds to keys of our life and death.

How do you explain why God inspired John the Beloved to write Rev. 14: 9-11:

Quote:

And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, [10] he also will drink the wine of God's wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. [11] And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

What's the purpose of these verses?

[Overaged]

You really consider a reward/punishment system the best idea that an all knowing god could come up with.

You must have a pretty low opinion of humans.

I guess god does treat us like Kings.... Here King, come here King....

Long as you don't call me late for dinner..

[fccool]

Quote:

Do you really think that "because there is an atheist surgeon" that God who is the sovereign of all the universe - must put His Word on hold, His Law on hold, His justice on hold???

God apparently does not care if people have genuine love and affinity for each one. He only cares how closely they follow His rules, some of which are arbitrary IMO... and needed for people like you, who can't imagine human beings behaving decently without these.

Quote:

Recall that in God's universe - there are no surgeons needed except in the one place where "man chose to side with Satan" and then suffer the immediate consequences of separation from the source of life.

And your point is what exactly? That what these people are doing is not important? Or that what these people are doing is meaningless, unless there's some Christian dogma attached to it?

Quote:

Surely you see the fallacy in your "yes but there are atheist surgeons" solution.

Even Satan himself must have cause to lament the horrible mess he has made of his new home - when he compares it to his old one.

How is that a fallacy? Do you really believe that Satan is touring the world, healing people because he really cares about them and has a sense of compassion?

How's your analogy even comparable?

Quote:

In Matthew 4 Satan admits to Christ that this world is "his" and he gives it to whomever he wishes. Thus the mess he has made of it - is by his own admission - his mess.

How is that relevant to discussion that there are people who don't believe that God exists for various reason, and yet they live the life of exemplary compassion and charity? Not because they want to get into heaven, but because that's something they desire to do.

Quote:

in Christ,

What does this signature mean?

[Overaged]

He only cares how closely they follow His rules, some of which are arbitrary IMO... and needed for people like you, who can't imagine human beings behaving decently without these.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: fccool

He only cares how closely they follow His rules, some of which are arbitrary IMO... and needed for people like you, who can't imagine human beings behaving decently without these.

People can behave decently without all the usual trappings of church and religion. Why?

Quote:

Christ is the source of every right impulse. He is the only one that can implant in the heart enmity against sin. Every desire for truth and purity, every conviction of our own sinfulness, is an evidence that His Spirit is moving upon our hearts. {SC 26.3}

There it is. The magic incantation response.

There is no way that you could possibly know this.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

...

If a god like this was in charge one would be better off dead. Life would be oppressive.

A God like what?

You apparently have an inaccurate, unbalanced view of the God of the Bible.

God's universe is a place of laws, both moral and physical laws. Violation of both types of laws have negative consequences.

But god adds value added consequences like burning in a lake of fire for a few days or stoning, etc..

And we see what a great quality of life people have under Islam.

Fear is a great motivator, but killing someone for buying groceries on the Sabbath seems rather draconian don't you think?

There are so many laws that require death for things that aren't fatal. You have to make up stuff to make them that dangerous. God knows that left unchecked buying groceries on the Sabbath will cause a massive collapse of the universe as we know it. LOL

[Overaged]

There it is. The magic incantation response.

There is no way that you could possibly know this.

Looks like you just shared your incantation with us. One will always find what they are looking for.