Buying groceries on sabbath

[CoAspen]

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They WILL all be, Sabbath keepers and Adventists.

We are still having some issues here. Again, to be an 'Adventist' means you have joined the SDA church, in the minds of the posters here. At the same time it is said you are not 'saved' by being a member, but rather a true follower of Christ. I have a feeling that some have already determined what a true follower will be......for everyone. It has not been established that because a person has the same value system and similar core beliefs, they are, wa-la, an SDA!

There is a subtle insinuation that to be an SDA is a requirement at some time before the 2nd coming of Christ. SDA' need to be careful with the words they use when talking to others or unbelievers in Christianity. It does us no good to dig the ditches for falling into! Just stick to the facts and don't extrapolate to the nth degree!

[John317]

...to be an 'Adventist' means you have joined the SDA church, in the minds of the posters here.

To be an Adventist means to be looking for the coming of Christ. It used to be the first advent that people anticipated. Now it is the second advent.

That is why the name was chosen. It was chosen because the name already had those connotations.

One can be an Adventist and not be a member of the SDA church. If people don't know that, it is a good time to learn it. An Adventist may be a member of the SDA church but one need not be. He might be a member of one of the other Adventist churches.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adventism

In a very real sense, anyone who is looking for the return of Christ is an adventist.

[John317]

...Looking back and observing all the doublethink Christians engage in to explain away things like evolution and Yahweh-the-bully, it just blows my mind.

Let every man and woman decide in their own mind.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

Looking back and observing all the doublethink Christians engage in to explain away things like evolution and Yahweh-the-bully, it just blows my mind.

That is a bit of a stretch and most likely includes not the wide range you suggest. Taking the Bible as a 'whole', in-situ, time/place, etc one does not have explain away a bully God.

Not all Christians try to explain away evolution and the same goes for scientist that I have listened to within the church. The evidence suggest that it is a viable process, not proven, but from a science point of view, the best answer. Those same SDA scientist, are honest and say 'I can't explain away the observable but I choose to believe in a Creator'. You can fault that, but it is a persons choice. It's called 'faith' and I use the definition given in the NT, 'things hoped for but not seen'!

Granted you will see and hear what you have posted about on these forums, but does not represent all of Christianity. For those who feel this is 'heresy'...get over it!!

Works for me!

[John317]

[cardw]

cardw, you're like a breath of fresh air.

I'd like to add that a true connection with the Lord is nothing more than a true connection with your own Ego.

[ClubV12]

Like John said, "Adventist" is a description of anyone looking forward to the return of Christ. It's reasonable to immediately associate that with the organized and structured "Seventh-day Adventist" church, but it's much broader than that in meaning. Same thing applies to "Sabbath" keepers, there are a number of folks that honor and keep the Sabbath besides "Seventh-day Adventists". Some of those also look forward to the near return of Christ. In effect that makes them seventh day, adventists. Which brings us full circle back to the "registered trademark(s)" name.

But the larger meaning applies just as much to Adam as it does to any other group honoring the Sabbath and looking for His coming. Paul most certainly was a seventh day worshiper of God who looked forward to His advent. Membership in the "official" trade marked name of the Seventh-day Adventist church in NO WAY gaurentee's anybody anything. But fellowship with like minded believers is an important part of worship and we are encouraged and told not to forsake that. In the end, it's all about what Revelation says, "Here are they that KEEP the commandments." Call them what you will, but thats what they do.

Likewise, there is no doubt many will be saved who were never Sabbath keepers. We are held to two things:

1. That which we know or has been revealed to us as truth, which we knowingly accept or reject.

2. That which we COULD HAVE KNOWN, but refused to study, carries EQUAL weight with that which has been revealed to us.

Understanding #2 drives me to more study, if I'm going to "miss the boat" I want to know exactly what path I am choosing, not bury my head in the sand and pretend I don't know. I refuse to lie to myself, to thine own self be true, as one man said.

[Igakusei]

That is a bit of a stretch and most likely includes not the wide range you suggest. Taking the Bible as a 'whole', in-situ, time/place, etc one does not have explain away a bully God.

In my experience, "taking the bible as a 'whole'" means cherry-picking so as to avoid the uncomfortable bits.

I mean, pretend you're an omnipotent god for a minute. Your 'chosen' people are surrounded by other people who don't worship you. Supposedly this is because you neglected to choose them as your people instead. Can you seriously not think of a better solution than having your people brutally slaughter the men, women, children, and even animals of the people around them?

Oh yeah, but it's cool if they save the virgin girls for themselves.

How in the world does "taking the Bible as a 'whole'" deal with that?

[cardw]

Quote:

Looking back and observing all the doublethink Christians engage in to explain away things like evolution and Yahweh-the-bully, it just blows my mind.

That is a bit of a stretch and most likely includes not the wide range you suggest. Taking the Bible as a 'whole', in-situ, time/place, etc one does not have explain away a bully God.

[phkrause]

This is exactly my experience. And when I confronted my teachers and pastors over this I saw immediately in their eyes and the expression on their face that this is what they were experiencing too.

They generally gave some lame answer like you can't look to me. "You have to look to Jesus."

"I can't see Jesus, that's why I'm coming to you."

Around and around it goes....

Aw come on, now who's being foolish? So when I hear someone say that they look to Abe Lincoln, or George Washington, or Shakespeare for whatever reason. I'm suppose to say I wonder what that means?? I think you know exactly what looking to Jesus means! It means read the Bible and look at the things he did, said, etc. To follow his example. When confronted with certain situations you can say to yourself, you know I read where Jesus did this or that, said this or that. Don't we all have somebody we look to for one thing or the other????? This is what looking at Jesus, or whoever you want to look at means. But you knew that already. But if you want to play word games that's your prevledge to do so.

[cardw]

2. That which we COULD HAVE KNOWN, but refused to study, carries EQUAL weight with that which has been revealed to us.

Understanding #2 drives me to more study, if I'm going to "miss the boat" I want to know exactly what path I am choosing, not bury my head in the sand and pretend I don't know. I refuse to lie to myself, to thine own self be true, as one man said.

That is exactly what this stuff is. Weight.

The fear of "not studying enough" is DRIVING you.

So how far back does this COULD HAVE KNOWN go?

HURRRY UP AND STUDY MORE SO YOU WON'T MISS THE BOAT!!!!!!

Lions and Tigers and BEARS OH NO!

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This is exactly my experience. And when I confronted my teachers and pastors over this I saw immediately in their eyes and the expression on their face that this is what they were experiencing too.

They generally gave some lame answer like you can't look to me. "You have to look to Jesus."

"I can't see Jesus, that's why I'm coming to you."

Around and around it goes....

Aw come on, now who's being foolish? So when I hear someone say that they look to Abe Lincoln, or George Washington, or Shakespeare for whatever reason. I'm suppose to say I wonder what that means?? I think you know exactly what looking to Jesus means! It means read the Bible and look at the things he did, said, etc.

This is not what I'm talking about. There is a promise that we will hear God's voice. No voice that I ever heard. It sounded like me the whole time.

I read the Bible and it's even more confusing. Which Jesus are we to look to? The Jesus running the Old Testament or Jesus defying the establishment?

No matter what you rationalize, these are two different beings. It is so striking that one early sect of Christianity believed that the god of the OT was an evil god and that Jesus had come to save us from this evil god.

It takes way too many illogical arguments to reconcile those two different narratives.

[Igakusei]

This is not what I'm talking about. There is a promise that we will hear God's voice. No voice that I ever heard. It sounded like me the whole time.

I read the Bible and it's even more confusing. Which Jesus are we to look to? The Jesus running the Old Testament or Jesus defying the establishment?

No matter what you rationalize, these are two different beings. It is so striking that one early sect of Christianity believed that the god of the OT was an evil god and that Jesus had come to save us from this evil god.

It takes way too many illogical arguments to reconcile those two different narratives.

Interestingly enough, one of the sects in the Sabbath-keeping line mentioned in the great controversy believed this. I don't know if this is the one you're referring to.

[ClubV12]

Wow, spiritual things really are spiritually discerned. But your only kidding yourself by denying even the concept of a living, loving God. Keep that up and you will find yourself "weighed" in the balance and coming up short. Fear IS the beginning of wisdom.

I never heard the voice of God speaking to my ears, but he speaks loud and clear to my soul.

[cardw]

Originally Posted By: cardw

This is not what I'm talking about. There is a promise that we will hear God's voice. No voice that I ever heard. It sounded like me the whole time.

I read the Bible and it's even more confusing. Which Jesus are we to look to? The Jesus running the Old Testament or Jesus defying the establishment?

No matter what you rationalize, these are two different beings. It is so striking that one early sect of Christianity believed that the god of the OT was an evil god and that Jesus had come to save us from this evil god.

It takes way too many illogical arguments to reconcile those two different narratives.

Interestingly enough, one of the sects in the Sabbath-keeping line mentioned in the great controversy believed this. I don't know if this is the one you're referring to.

[cardw]

Wow, spiritual things really are spiritually discerned. But your only kidding yourself by denying even the concept of a living, loving God. Keep that up and you will find yourself "weighed" in the balance and coming up short. Fear IS the beginning of wisdom.

I never heard the voice of God speaking to my ears, but he speaks loud and clear to my soul.

Well I didn't "hear" that voice either. I think, like Igakusei said, that is simply your Ego.

All this fear, judgment, and weighing is pretty dark. It never sounded like good news to me and it doesn't improve with age.

[cardw]

I just noticed that my last reply was the 666th reply. Oh no I have created the mark of the beast. LOL

[CoAspen]

Aw, you know what I mean by the 'whole'....I gave you the clues! When reading the OT Bible and also understanding the way nations around them viewed their Gods, many parallels can be seen. The followers of God that wrote those books most likely had the same view at times, even mixing both belief systems quite often. Of course it is pick and choose! One can pick out all the 'bad perception' of God and pick out the unending 'good perception' of God, it depends on ones personal 'perception' and experience in life. I don't deny your viewpoint and perception. I can not prove you wrong but only say that my perception is different.

In the same way I can't prove or disprove creation or evolution, I simply say 'that is the I choose to believe'!

Tain't worth arguing about! At least not for me!! It's all about choices!!!!

Works for me!

[cardw]

Aw, you know what I mean by the 'whole'....I gave you the clues! When reading the OT Bible and also understanding the way nations around them viewed their Gods, many parallels can be seen. The followers of God that wrote those books most likely had the same view at times, even mixing both belief systems quite often. Of course it is pick and choose! One can pick out all the 'bad perception' of God and pick out the unending 'good perception' of God, it depends on ones personal 'perception' and experience in life. I don't deny your viewpoint and perception. I can not prove you wrong but only say that my perception is different.

In the same way I can't prove or disprove creation or evolution, I simply say 'that is the I choose to believe'!

Tain't worth arguing about! At least not for me!! It's all about choices!!!!

Works for me!

I actually don't know what you mean by the "whole." If you are picking and choosing you are basically creating your own personal religion. I'm not saying that is wrong or right.

I pick things from the Bible that make sense, but I see no evidence that it was put together by any Divine guidance. I also know that it is man made by studying history and looking at other religions. Christianity heavily borrows from pre existing belief systems just like every other religion. Most believers are simply not exposed to the history of the Bible and Christianity.

Most Christians are simply given a simplified textual "proof" system with little understanding of how one determines truth from a basic system of logic. Christianity is sustained by the liberal use of fallacies. These fallacies aren't allowed in competing religious views, but somehow it is allowable if it's Christian.

I have no problem if someone wants to believe in a creator as long as they don't start making stuff up about what that creator wants.

There is no way that I can determine how we got here or what our purpose is because there is simply not enough information to determine that. We can make it up or feel our way through or any number of means.

I do know enough to determine that the bible is not a superior book of truth by any comparative measure. It is steeped in iron age ideas and requires one to ignore 2000 years of philosophical dialog.

[John317]

In my experience, "taking the bible as a 'whole'" means cherry-picking so as to avoid the uncomfortable bits.

I don't take the Bible as a whole; I take the whole Bible.

[cardw]

I know I talk a lot about evidence. So let's look at Malachi 4:2. This is considered to be a prophecy about Jesus. It states

Quote:

But for you who revere my name, the sun of righteousness will rise with healing in its wings. And you will go out and leap like calves released from the stall.

Notice the spelling. It does not say son, but sun.

Let's look at the symbol for Horus within Egyptian mythology.

This is the Sun with Wings.

Horus is the son of the Virgin Isis. The wings are symbols of how a god travels from the heavens to earth.

It was in the the late 18th dynasty that Horus began to be referred to as a Savior in the form of Aten and Egyptian polytheism was transferred from the equality of gods to having Aten being treated as being over all the other gods. This is considered the first instance of monotheism by many scholars and you can see the transference within this hymn stating that Aten is not only the Lord of the Egyptians, but he is the Lord of all nations and peoples.

In this hymn to Aten you can see influences that have been said to have inspired Psalms 104

Quote:

How manifold it is, what thou hast made!

They are hidden from the face (of man).

O sole god, like whom there is no other!

Thou didst create the world according to thy desire,

Whilst thou wert alone: All men, cattle, and wild beasts,

Whatever is on earth, going upon (its) feet,

And what is on high, flying with its wings.

The countries of Syria and Nubia, the land of Egypt,

Thou settest every man in his place,

Thou suppliest their necessities:

Everyone has his food, and his time of life is reckoned.

Their tongues are separate in speech,

And their natures as well;

Their skins are distinguished,

As thou distinguishest the foreign peoples.

Thou makest a Nile in the underworld,

Thou bringest forth as thou desirest

To maintain the people (of Egypt)

According as thou madest them for thyself,

The lord of all of them, wearying (himself) with them,

The lord of every land, rising for them,

The Aton of the day, great of majesty.

There is evidence that Israel was worshipping the sun and there was a battle between competing priesthoods as evidenced by this text in Ezekiel.

Ezekiel (c. 586 BCE) related that the Israelites/Hebrews/Jews continued to worship the sun, as at 8:16:

"And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the LORD; and behold, at the door of the temple of the LORD, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the LORD, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east."

In this scripture, it is not just the common people but the very priests themselves who are engaging in sun worship.

It becomes apparent that many Christians considered Jesus the actual sun because you have Tertullian in the 1st century and Augustine in the 5th having to write apologetics explaining that Christians weren't Sun worshippers or condemning Christians who were worshipping the sun as Jesus or the son of God.

Tertullian writes the following...

Quote:

Tertullian referred to Paul's comments at 1 Cor. 15:21 and compared the "glory of the sun" to that of Christ:

In like manner does he take examples from the heavenly bodies: "There is one glory of the sun" (that is, of Christ), "and another glory of the moon" (that is, of the Church), "and another glory of the stars" (in other words, of the seed of Abraham).

When Tertullian initially denied that Christians worshiped the sun he was confronted with evidence and his response to the pagans was, well so do you. Evidently the pagans realized that the sun wasn't actually god before the Christians did.

There are numerous references to Christ in the New Testament as having characteristics of the Sun including his ascension where he shown like the sun.

In Egyptian mythology Horus would take his Sun like power to the land of the dead and bring life. They knew that the sun provided life and healing. They projected the greatest power they could observe onto God's son or sun.

Plato states that Socrates didn't call the Sun, God himself, but the son of god. To the Greeks the great creator god of the universe was a mystery or the unknown god. Jesus or Christ would be the manifestation of god in the flesh as a sun with healing in its wings coming to earth and going to the realm of the dead. You find this motif in the New Testament in numerous places.

Jesus is not this unique idea that comes out of nowhere like Christian theologians would like you to believe. Christianity was a syncretic belief system that emerged in its present form by force once Rome took it as its own. You would have no Seventh Day Adventist Church without Roman Catholics. Many of the doctrines that Seventh Day Adventist hold were forged by the blood of pagans and heretics as Rome, by force, not spiritual insight, formed the major doctrines of the Christian Church. They rewrote the story and suppressed all others. And even they could not hide all the origins even in the New Testament. They simply reinterpreted them to remove the Egyptian, Babylonian and gnostic origins of the Jesus story.

[John317]

OK, now that you have made up your mind about this, what do you do next?

I doubt there's anyone on earth that could persuade you to see these things differently than you do.

You haven't shown anything that is new or surprising. Everyone deals with the same facts. But your interpretation of the facts is not the only one that is consistent with everything we know.

Of course there are relationships to be found among all these things. However, you apparently fail to realize is that there is no reason for humans to write as if they were in a vacuum. God doesn't take prophets out of their environment and out of their skin. The prophets read the "books" of their day, and therefore we shouldn't be surprised that they sometimes were influenced by certain concepts and ideas that they found in the literature of their time. Proverbs was influenced in some sections by things in ancient Egyptian literature. It is likely that certain aspects of the sanctuary were similar to things that the Israelites saw in Egypt. Paul quoted pagan poets and even called them "prophets."

Also, you apparently forget (or choose to ignore) the fact that there are millions of fallen angels who influence people's thinking and people's desires. This is the clear teaching of Scripture.

[cardw]

OK, now that you have made up your mind about this, what do you do next?

[CoAspen]

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I'm not looking for a person to tell me. I'm looking at evidence.

The evidence will only be seen in a persons life that believes and simply acts as if they are seeing others as Christ sees them, going about their life accordingly. It is never about what an individual 'tells' you.

You are defining 'intellectually dishonest' to suit your beliefs. Again, it is how things are perceived!

I doubt that you would accept being called such!

[cardw]

Quote:

I'm not looking for a person to tell me. I'm looking at evidence.

The evidence will only be seen in a persons life that believes and simply acts as if they are seeing others as Christ sees them, going about their life accordingly. It is never about what an individual 'tells' you.