Buying groceries on sabbath

[gretta]

Originally Posted By: ClubV12

The 3rd angels message is the Sabbath. The death penalty still applies, only the sentence has been postponed.

Just stating the obvious,,,

Be happy or I'll kill you would make about as much sense as killing someone for not resting.

I guess you'll "rest in peace" either way....LOL!!!

I saw these and just had to add my thoughts . . .

2 Samuel 14:14 For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

The Ten Commandments are not set up to be "obey these or I will kill you". God's intention with sending us this gift is "you are dying - obey these and you can find life."

Psalm 103:10-14 He had not dealt with us according to our sins, nor punished us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.

We can't put too much stock into obedience. All have sinned, and we must always keep before us God's great mercy and the Great Gift of salvation through Jesus and the sacrifice made that we may live. God knows our frame, and has always known that giving us a Sabbath to keep will not save us. While people were orignally stoned for disobedience, this "sleep(death)" served as an affirmation to others that this was important. Also, for the offender the physical punishment of being stoned does not automatically mean that this person is sentenced to the great and final "death(death)".

May you all be blessed with God's love.

[Aliensanctuary]

In this life there are, unfortunately, some gray areas, especially related to Sabbath observance. While things may not be clear in this life, in the next life everything will be crystal clear. Contained within our minds will be God's instructions on what we should be doing, including the Sabbath, which all will observe the way it was meant to be.

Those who willfully resist compliance to God's Rules for this life put themselves at risk for receiving the Mark of the Beast, aligning themselves with Satan's Kingdom. God-haters and Law-breakers will attack the forces of God, and are destroyed. People won't be killed just for breaking the Sabbath commandment. They are destroyed because they are rebels who are the enemies of God, and will fight to rip him from his throne. They are contaminated with, and embrace, evil, the most deadly virus of all.

[phkrause]

I saw these and just had to add my thoughts . . .

2 Samuel 14:14 For we will surely die and become like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again. Yet God does not take away a life; but He devises means so that His banished ones are not expelled from Him.

The Ten Commandments are not set up to be "obey these or I will kill you". God's intention with sending us this gift is "you are dying - obey these and you can find life."

Psalm 103:10-14 He had not dealt with us according to our sins, nor punished us according to our iniquities. For as the heavens are high above the earth, so great is His mercy toward those who fear Him; as far as the east is from the west, so far has He removed our transgressions from us. As a father pities his children, so the Lord pities those who fear Him. For He knows our frame; He remembers that we are dust.

We can't put too much stock into obedience. All have sinned, and we must always keep before us God's great mercy and the Great Gift of salvation through Jesus and the sacrifice made that we may live. God knows our frame, and has always known that giving us a Sabbath to keep will not save us. While people were orignally stoned for disobedience, this "sleep(death)" served as an affirmation to others that this was important. Also, for the offender the physical punishment of being stoned does not automatically mean that this person is sentenced to the great and final "death(death)".

May you all be blessed with God's love.

great post gretta, and welcome to C/A

[John317]

What did the disciples do? What did the Pharisees say? What did Jesus say?

Good questions all.

There's no record of the disciples doing common business-- buying and selling-- on the Sabbath. They picked enough grain to eat on the Sabbath, which is like picking a couple of oranges off a tree, enough to satisfy one's hunger.

The Pharisees thought picking enough food to keep them from being hungry was "working" and that it was therefore breaking the Sabbath. Of course Jesus disagreed with them. They were in perfect agreement, though, that the Sabbath day is holy and shouldn't be used for buying and selling.

Jesus said that the Sabbath was made for the benefit of humans, not humans for the Sabbath. It's to be a blessing to us, not a burden. He also said he was the Master of the Sabbath day, meaning that Jesus was the One who made the Sabbath and is our model in keeping it holy.

[cardw]

Your characterizations show a poor understanding of God's purposes for instituting Sabbath and worship.

It reminds me an adult complaining that his mommy and daddy would threaten him with punishment if he didn't clean his room and therefore he was still refusing to clean his rooms.

[John317]

The consequences of not cleaning your room is living in mess. That is the natural consequence. It doesn't make someone a bad person. It just makes them uncomfortable and smelly to be around. No one dies.

That's true, but my point was the part about the adult still complaining about the parents using the threat of punishment in order to get the child to do what was best for him, and then using his parents threats as a reason not to keep his house clean.

Wouldn't that show the adult is immature in his thinking, and that he needs to grow up and move beyond the threats about keeping his room clean?

[John317]

Do you believe it's important that humans worship and obey the Creator of the universe?

Do you believe that assuming that such a God exists, He has a right to command worship and obedience?

Originally Posted By: cardw

I can't imagine an all knowing god needing or requiring worship. It would take one massive ego to require that. I can't imagine an all knowing god even caring about what we thought about him or not. That is simply not something an advanced being would be concerned with.

What is "worship"?

Who or what do you worship?

[John317]

...Mature people love without requiring anything in return. The act of loving is enough pleasure in itself.

Love that asks for things in return isn't love at all. It's a transaction or manipulation. Even though money doesn't exchange hands you could call it a prostitution of a sort.

As a parent, don't you have rules in the home that children must obey?

And does having rules in the home that children must obey mean that the parent does not genuinely love their child?

[Tom Wetmore]

It's a matter of maturity. Without trying to speak for "cardw", I think his point that much of Christian teaching and practice is stuck in that immature, childish, view of God. God seeks a relationship with us first and foremost. The rules were for order and safety amongst immature people.

Rules of order and safety for children are quite different from what is expected in relationships. I can enforce most any rule without a relationship with someone else. Power and force is all that is needed. But that does not build a relationship.

Rules in the home of children do not determine whether they will mature into adults with successful relationships. It is the presence of love and affection that does.

[John317]

...Love that asks for things in return isn't love at all. It's a transaction or manipulation. Even though money doesn't exchange hands you could call it a prostitution of a sort.

God's problem is that there is rebellion and death in the universe, and God does not want that condition of things to continue indefinitely because it is hurting the people God loves, to say nothing of how sin affects the animals and all of life.

God does in fact love the creation without asking for things in return. God's love is unconditional.

Originally Posted By: cardw

That is why such a view of god is so distasteful to me. If this god requires me to love him back I would call that the equivalent of child molestation. That's why adults don't ask children to be in an equal relationship. It is only adults that are childish in their thinking that think it's OK to molest children.

And if that god requires me to love him back through the threat of death then that is pretty childish god. There are so many other more mature world views that function on much higher levels.

The Bible doesn't portray God as One who is asking humans to be in an equal relationship with Him. He is the Creator and we are the creature, or the created. So there's no suggestion in the Bible that human beings are God's equal.

Your statements indicate to me that you don't understand worship and why God gives us commandments.

Why do you believe God commands us to love Him with all of our being? Can you think of a single good reason He would do this?

[fccool]

Quote:

can't imagine an all knowing god needing or requiring worship. It would take one massive ego to require that. I can't imagine an all knowing god even caring about what we thought about him or not. That is simply not something an advanced being would be concerned with.

Mature people love without requiring anything in return. The act of loving is enough pleasure in itself.

Love that asks for things in return isn't love at all. It's a transaction or manipulation. Even though money doesn't exchange hands you could call it a prostitution of a sort.

That is why such a view of god is so distasteful to me. If this god requires me to love him back I would call that the equivalent of child molestation. That's why adults don't ask children to be in an equal relationship. It is only adults that are childish in their thinking that think it's OK to molest children.

It's unfortunate that Christians mistake abusive manipulation for some sort of loving and care. It's not very surprising that one can end up with ideas like inquisition and witch-burning.

Pastors often present God like an elderly mother who constantly tries to get to her kids to obey her through shame and guilt. "Why won't you want to become a violin player? After all of the sacrifices I've done for you. After all of the pain I've suffered, you still disobey my wishes."

That's not love. It's emotional manipulation. And it's unfortunate that Christianity traded true love for such love, along with "rough love" of telling other people that they are worthless.

It's ironic, that people they try to evangelize and turn Christian actually know God better than they do.

[fccool]

Quote:

The Bible doesn't portray God as One who is asking humans to be in an equal relationship with Him. He is the Creator and we are the creature, or the created. So there's no suggestion in the Bible that human beings are God's equal.

Actually, Biblical model quite more than that. God in order to relate to us, not only took the form of human form, but that of homeless and criminal carpenter.

You completely misunderstand the idea of worship, if you think that God somehow wants us to feel like insignificant dirt, and praise Him for being such an awesome entity. If you can find me a single passage in the Bible that has God demanding worship and praise, I'd be happy to engage in such discussion.

Story of Christ is a story of true and unconditional love towards humanity. The idea that true greatness is dropping your ego for the sake of other.

[John317]

....Rules in the home of children do not determine whether they will mature into adults with successful relationships. It is the presence of love and affection that does.

No one is saying that rules in the home determine whether there's a good relationship between the members of the family. It would depend on the rules and how they're taught and enforced.

Without rules in the home, though, there won't be love and affection, neither self-respect or respect for others. That's why it's important to teach children early so that they will eventually follow the rules by second nature.

People who don't follow the rules often end up in jail or prison for the protection of others as well as of themselves.

[John317]

can't imagine an all knowing god needing or requiring worship. It would take one massive ego to require that. I can't imagine an all knowing god even caring about what we thought about him or not. That is simply not something an advanced being would be concerned with.

Originally Posted By: fccool

It's ironic, that people they try to evangelize and turn Christian actually know God better than they do.

I'm glad to have other Christians on the Forum so that we can come together and help answer cardw's questions.

Based on what you believe the Word of God teaches, can you give cardw your reasoned response to what he is asking here?

Why does God command obedience, worship, and love?

Or do you believe that God does nothing of the kind?

[John317]

It's a matter of maturity. Without trying to speak for "cardw", ....

Why not, rather, help answer cardw's question about why God commands worship, love and obedience?

What does the Bible teach, and why do you believe the Bible teaches as it does on this issue?

[John317]

The Bible doesn't portray God as One who is asking humans to be in an equal relationship with Him. He is the Creator and we are the creature, or the created. So there's no suggestion in the Bible that human beings are God's equal.

Originally Posted By: fccool

Actually, Biblical model quite more than that. God in order to relate to us, not only took the form of human form, but that of homeless and criminal carpenter.

Yes, God came in human form because he loves us, but not because God wants us to be in an equal relationship with Him.

There's no indication anywhere in the Bible that God expects us or wants human beings to be in an equal relationship with Him.

On the contrary, Christ was always careful to show that He and other humans are distinct and have a different kind of relationship with the Father. For instance, Jesus never spoke of God being "our God" or "our Father." He always spoke of "my God and your God" or "my Father" and "your Father."

We are to obey Jesus' and God's commandments; Jesus and God do not obey our commandments. WE are God's slaves; He is never our slave.

Jesus is our friend, yes, but whether we are indeed His friends is demonstrated by our obedience to His commandments.

Jesus never obeys our command. He gives us what we ask the Father for in His name, but again, it depends on if we are asking according to His will.

[John317]

Quote:

The Bible doesn't portray God as One who is asking humans to be in an equal relationship with Him. He is the Creator and we are the creature, or the created. So there's no suggestion in the Bible that human beings are God's equal.

You completely misunderstand the idea of worship, if you think that God somehow wants us to feel like insignificant dirt, and praise Him for being such an awesome entity.

I have never suggested such a thing. If you believe I have, please show the evidence.

Your argument here is a "straw man."

Originally Posted By: fccool

If you can find me a single passage in the Bible that has God demanding worship and praise, I'd be happy to engage in such discussion.

What is worship?

Isn't obedience the highest form, and the very essence, of worship?

Praise comes spontaneously from those who worship and love God.

So of course God does not demand or command praise. But then I never suggested that God did demand praise.

However, God has indeed commanded worship, and not infrequently:

"Worship God!" (Rev. 19: 10)

"Worship God!" (Rev. 22: 9)

"Let all God's angels worship [Christ]" Hebrews 1: 6.

Jesus said to the Devil, "'You shall worship the Lord your God..."

There are many other inspired words of God that command worship of God and only God. To worship anything or anyone else is idolatry, and the Bible commands us to stay away from idolatry.

Why does the Bible give us such commands? Does it have anything to do with the fact that God loves us with in infinite, unconditional love?

[ClubV12]

From the reading I've done in the SOP I am left with the distinct impression that parents teaching children to "obey" is the key to those same children later understanding the importance to "obey" their heavenly Father as well.

If they blow off the parental discipline, it will be easier to blow off heavenly discipline. There are several examples of this in the bible, Sister White is simply expanding and putting a finer point on those examples.

Sorry, I'm not yet a great bible scholar, but I'm working on it! Who were those two guys who brought the "unholy fire" to the temple and were consumed? Sister White points out that mistake began with their earthly father failing to instill discipline in his children!

[John317]

That's for sure. As one who's worked for years with juvenile delinquents, I can tell you that I rarely saw any who grew up in a home where the parents taught them rules that they had to obey. Most of them made the rules themselves and had no respect for either themselves or for their parents. And most either did not know their father or did not have a relationship with him, because he was absent most of the time. Many parents were in prison, and a few I knew of were even on death row.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

....Rules in the home of children do not determine whether they will mature into adults with successful relationships. It is the presence of love and affection that does.

No one is saying that rules in the home determine whether there's a good relationship between the members of the family. It would depend on the rules and how they're taught and enforced.

Without rules in the home, though, there won't be love and affection, neither self-respect or respect for others. That's why it's important to teach children early so that they will eventually follow the rules by second nature.

People who don't follow the rules often end up in jail or prison for the protection of others as well as of themselves.

From what I understand, that has not been very well supported by studies of methods of discipline comparing autocratic (rules and strict enforcement) parenting and laissez faire (no rules and/or lax enforcement) parenting. Just comparing those two variables show results insufficiently consistent to reach a conclusion of adult success both societally and in relationships. However, when the variable of love and affection was accounted for, the differences became much clearer.

As I recall, at least one significant study demonstrated that the difference between children from loving homes/parenting vs. non-loving showed the most difference in emotional development and later success in combination with either autocratic and laissez faire. There was much less difference between loving/autocratic and loving/laissez faire or non-loving/autocratic and non-loving/laissez faire than if you compared loving vs. non-loving in either category of parental disciplinary style. Also as I recall, worst outcomes were in the autocratic/non-loving category and the best outcomes were fairly close between autocratic/loving and laissez faire/loving. The single variable that seemed to make the most difference was significant demonstrated love and affection by parents of any type.

The bottom line is that it's hard to go wrong with demonstratively loving your kids. The rules and enforcement in parenting don't make as big of a difference in the long run when it comes to emotional development and successful adult relationships.

But all is not lost for the emotionally deprived kids. Love in adulthood can help repair the damage.

[ClubV12]

I remember, quite vividly, sitting in sabbath school class early in my experience. Somebody read the text from David, "Oh how I love thy law." I could not begin to wrap my head around that. The whold idea seemed incomprehensible. How is it possible for anyone to actually "love" this demanding "law", impossible to keep, condeming at every turn, and you "love" it? What????

It took some time, but I "get it", through the Holy Spirit of course. I not only "get it" I embrace it. It's wonderful. Thank God for the "law", the blue print for a life worth living, and dieing for! :)

[John317]

Sorry, I'm not yet a great bible scholar, but I'm working on it! Who were those two guys who brought the "unholy fire" to the temple and were consumed? Sister White points out that mistake began with their earthly father failing to instill discipline in his children!

Oh yeah, Nadab and Abihu. Sons of Aaron. See Lev. 10.

There were also the sons of Eli. 1 Sam. 2.

Both fathers unwittingly trained their children to be self-indulgent and to have no love or respect either for themselves or for others.

[olger]

It's a matter of maturity. Without trying to speak for "cardw", I think his point that much of Christian teaching and practice is stuck in that immature, childish, view of God. God seeks a relationship with us first and foremost. The rules were for order and safety amongst immature people.

Rules of order and safety for children are quite different from what is expected in relationships. I can enforce most any rule without a relationship with someone else. Power and force is all that is needed. But that does not build a relationship.

Rules in the home of children do not determine whether they will mature into adults with successful relationships. It is the presence of love and affection that does.

People who hate God have a relationship with Him. A negative, self destructive one, I might add.

Everyone has a relationship with Christ, some are walking in obedience to Him, others are defiant or indifferent towards Him.

Everyone......

`oG

[BobRyan]

In John 14:15 Jesus makes the connection between a relationship with God and obedience... "IF you Love Me KEEP My commandments".

In Matt 7 Jeus draws the line between those who claim to have a relationship with God - vs disobedience "Not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven..but he who DOES the Will of My Father".

In Romans 2:13 Paul makes the connection between Justification and obedience "It is NOT the HEARERS of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law will be justifIED ... on the day when according to my GOSPEL God WILL JUDGE the secrets of all mankind through the man Christ Jesus"

In 1John 2:4-8 John makes the connection between relationship and obedience saying that the one "who claims" to know and Love Christ ought to "Keep His commandments".

We are to love others - including our children - as God has loved us. Which is a huge level of commitment. We are also to insist on obedience with them - as God does with us.

Those parents who choose to let their children run riot are sowing to the wind and will reap the whirlwind.

God is a better parent than that.

in Christ,

Bob

[fccool]

Quote:

Yes, God came in human form because he loves us, but not because God wants us to be in an equal relationship with Him.

There's no indication anywhere in the Bible that God expects us or wants human beings to be in an equal relationship with Him.

There's no other form of relationship. If our relationship with God is described as marriage, it is very much and equal relationship. It does not mean that we are equal to God. It's a no-brainer. But it does however means that God does not treat us like subjects.

That's the entire point of Christ coming to earth in a human form. He got beneath everyone of us, because people like you can't see how God wants to be viewed and perceived. He could have come as anything... a majestic and unstoppable being that just orders things and they get done, but that was not the case. He actually got down and washed people's feet. He is not beneath that. How's that for not equal relationship?

Quote:

On the contrary, Christ was always careful to show that He and other humans are distinct and have a different kind of relationship with the Father. For instance, Jesus never spoke of God being "our God" or "our Father." He always spoke of "my God and your God" or "my Father" and "your Father."

Jesus and "Father" are not separate entities. It's an expression of the same God in a different form. God itself is imperceptible. He's invisible to us. We can know Him only through certain concepts of visible things.

I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.

The "greater than I" is a language that's spoken from human mind's perspective for the purpose of our understanding. If Christ is God, there's no "lesser" status of God. There likewise can be no division in unity. Unity by definition is indivisible. There may be different expression of the same unity, for example... water can be gas, can be liquid and can be solid. In all states, it's the same exact molecule behaving differently.

Quote:

We are to obey Jesus' and God's commandments; Jesus and God do not obey our commandments. WE are God's slaves; He is never our slave.

Here's where you misunderstand the nature of love. You are in fact a slave (a servant) to whom you love. That's as simple as that.

Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves, 4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,

did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;

7 rather, he made himself nothing

by taking the very nature of a servant,

being made in human likeness.

8 And being found in appearance as a man,

he humbled himself

by becoming obedient to death—

even death on a cross!

Quote:

Jesus is our friend, yes, but whether we are indeed His friends is demonstrated by our obedience to His commandments.

I think you misunderstand the concept, and you present it backwards.

If I walk over to you and say, please be my friend, I love you, and you can only be my friend if you go and fetch me some groceries and clean my toilet.

That's not friendship. South USA had plenty of these "friend-owners" that thought it was a great way of life back in 16-1700s.

True friendship revolves around mutual understanding and fulfilling needs of people you are friends with. God does not have any other needs. He does not need worship. He does not need praise. He does not need obedience. But, what he loves is for you to love the objects of his love. That's the only way to love God... to love other people. That's the whole point of the law. That's what the Sabbath was created for. That's why the "holy days" revolve around feasts and celebration, and not 36 hour sermon marathons with 12 hour sessions of praise and worship.

Quote:

Jesus never obeys our command. He gives us what we ask the Father for in His name, but again, it depends on if we are asking according to His will.

We don't serve one another in order to "obey". We serve one another to love. Love is an expression of understanding.

If people don't understand what Sabbath is all about, then obeying it means absolutely nothing... absolutely nothing.

If I and my wife have mere relationship based on obedience, then it's not a relationship at all. I understand what she needs, and I in turn make myself her slave by meeting her needs. Likewise, I don't force her to be a housewife, neither I force her to find a job. She loves me, and she does whatever she can to take care of me. That's the nature of equal relationship.

Our relationship with God is nothing but equal. That's the only type of relationship that revolves around free-will choices and understanding.