Buying groceries on sabbath

[John317]

Those things are not mutually exclusive, are they? Of course it speaks of loving them. Teaching them rules and how to respect themselves and others in not antithetical to loving them.

The question here is, why does God command us to love, obey and worship Him?

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Who said they were? If you paid attention to what I posted, they weren't.

...If you can't understand a simple statement of me agreeing with you how on earth can I expect to you to understand anything else I say!?!?

I don't know, Tom, but if you try hard to understand what I am saying and answer my questions straight, I promise you that I will do the same.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Good grief man! Slow down and pay attention to the flow of the conversation before you respond!

OK, I'm really glad to understand that you agree with me that God commands humans to love, obey, and worship Him, and also commands us to love each other as we love ourselves.

Matt. 22:37-39-- Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

This is the first and great commandment.

And the second [is] like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

22:40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

Deut. 6:4 Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God [is] one LORD:

6:5 And thou shalt love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy might.

Since you agree with this, I'd like to see your explanation as to why a loving, all wise God would make these commands of us. This was the main objection that our friend cardw had about God.

Perhaps you have already given your explanation, but if that is the case, please point me to it, unless you don't mind repeating at least part of your explanation here.

[ClubV12]

I'm coming from the same place David was, "Oh how I love thy law". I see in the law perfect harmony, peace and infinite love. Many people have put forth what they think comprises Gods church on earth. From the inspired messenger of the Lord we know that Seventh-day Adventists are a unique people, an organized, legal body of believers recognized by heaven and earthly bodies of Governments and peoples. We are a distinct church, separate from the world, the single object of Gods supreme regard on this earth. When in session, the Seventh-day Adventist General Conference is the highest authority on earth. We are more, much more, than mere "christians", we comprise more, much more, than some general definition of a "church". Seventh-day Adventists are a specially chosen people for this time in history, Gods church on earth, bearing a special message to the world.

Thats why I'm not a Mormon, or a Jehovah Witness, both groups for whom I have great respect for, by the way. We could learn a lot from either or both when it comes to evangelism.

"There must be no pretense in the lives of those who have so sacred and solemn a message as we have been called to bear. The world is watching Seventh-day Adventists because it knows something of their profession of faith and of their high standard, and when it sees those who do not live up to their profession, it points at them with scorn." {Amazing Grace 247.4}

[John317]

I was actually pointing to the dilemma in theology, which is relevant to this thread.

1) Love is a voluntary expression.

2) Is it genuine, if it's a response to a command?

How can you command someone to love?

The point is, fccool, that the Bible clearly tells us that God has commanded us to love and worship Him and also to love each other as we love ourselves.

It is not a question of asking "How could God do it?" It is a question of whether we choose to accept God's revelation and His commandment.

We can discuss the philosophical issues and the "dilemma" all day long on another Forum, but this one is for the purpose of talking about the Bible's teachings.

[John317]

.... From the inspired messenger of the Lord we know that Seventh-day Adventists are a unique people, an organized, legal body of believers recognized by heaven and earthly bodies of Governments and peoples. We are a distinct church, separate from the world, the single object of Gods supreme regard on this earth. When in session, the Seventh-day Adventist General Conference is the highest authority on earth. We are more, much more, than mere "christians", we comprise more, much more, than some general definition of a "church". Seventh-day Adventists are a specially chosen people for this time in history, Gods church on earth, bearing a special message to the world....

"There must be no pretense in the lives of those who have so sacred and solemn a message as we have been called to bear. The world is watching Seventh-day Adventists because it knows something of their profession of faith and of their high standard, and when it sees those who do not live up to their profession, it points at them with scorn." {Amazing Grace 247.4}

[fccool]

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The point is, fccool, that the Bible clearly tells us that God has commanded us to love and worship Him and also to love each other as we love ourselves.

It is not a question of asking "How could God do it?" It is a question of whether we choose to accept God's revelation and His commandment.

We can discuss the philosophical issues and the "dilemma" all day long on another Forum, but this one is for the purpose of talking about the Bible's teachings.

I see that you choose to ignore my points about "us". Can you give me a passage of the Bible that has my and your name written in it?

Who are those commands given to? Does it make a difference when we understand historical context?

Answer these questions for yourself, and perhaps you can stop saying "God commanded us", and understand why these "commands" were given in the first place.

It's not merely an issue of philosophy that you are failing to respond to.

Can you agree with me that love is a voluntary expression? Can you agree that you can't beat it out of a person. Then how can you command to love? What difference does it make if you command or not.

Nobody will say... Ah, you command to love? Now that makes a difference. I will now love, since you commanded me to.

You try to make a some big point out of it, and you fail to respond to this very simple question.

[fccool]

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I'm coming from the same place David was, "Oh how I love thy law". I see in the law perfect harmony, peace and infinite love. Many people have put forth what they think comprises Gods church on earth. From the inspired messenger of the Lord we know that Seventh-day Adventists are a unique people, an organized, legal body of believers recognized by heaven and earthly bodies of Governments and peoples. We are a distinct church, separate from the world, the single object of Gods supreme regard on this earth.

Very humble perception that in no way resembles how Jews viewed themselves prior to the first coming. They likewise loved to be the "object of God's supreme regard", until they were surprised to find out that "goym" were better suited for God's purpose.

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When in session, the Seventh-day Adventist General Conference is the highest authority on earth.

Very different concept from Papal establishment, which is likewise "the highest authority of God on earth".

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We are more, much more, than mere "christians", we comprise more, much more, than some general definition of a "church". Seventh-day Adventists are a specially chosen people for this time in history, Gods church on earth, bearing a special message to the world.

I should really save this one for posterity. It's one of the most humble statements that I've read in a while. Wait I've seen that somewhere ... oh yeah... that's right ... here:

“God, I thank you that I am not like other people: thieves, rogues, adulterers, or even like this tax-collector."

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Thats why I'm not a Mormon, or a Jehovah Witness, both groups for whom I have great respect for, by the way. We could learn a lot from either or both when it comes to evangelism.

"There must be no pretense in the lives of those who have so sacred and solemn a message as we have been called to bear. The world is watching Seventh-day Adventists because it knows something of their profession of faith and of their high standard, and when it sees those who do not live up to their profession, it points at them with scorn." {Amazing Grace 247.4}

All I can say. You will be surprised :)

[John317]

...

This is how misunderstandings happen...

Speaking of misunderstandings, Tom, here was the messsage about God's commandments that cardw posted a while back:

Originally Posted By: cardw

I can't imagine an all knowing god needing or requiring worship. It would take one massive ego to require that. I can't imagine an all knowing god even caring about what we thought about him or not. That is simply not something an advanced being would be concerned with.

Mature people love without requiring anything in return. The act of loving is enough pleasure in itself.

Love that asks for things in return isn't love at all. It's a transaction or manipulation. Even though money doesn't exchange hands you could call it a prostitution of a sort.

That is why such a view of god is so distasteful to me. If this god requires me to love him back I would call that the equivalent of child molestation. That's why adults don't ask children to be in an equal relationship. It is only adults that are childish in their thinking that think it's OK to molest children.

And if that god requires me to love him back through the threat of death then that is pretty childish god. There are so many other more mature world views that function on much higher levels.

Now that it is clear that you agree God commands us to worship and love Him, what is your response to cardw's statements here?

[John317]

Quote:

The point is, fccool, that the Bible clearly tells us that God has commanded us to love and worship Him and also to love each other as we love ourselves.

It is not a question of asking "How could God do it?" It is a question of whether we choose to accept God's revelation and His commandment.

We can discuss the philosophical issues and the "dilemma" all day long on another Forum, but this one is for the purpose of talking about the Bible's teachings.

I see that you choose to ignore my points about "us". Can you give me a passage of the Bible that has my and your name written in it?

Who are those commands given to? Does it make a difference when we understand historical context?

Are you seriously expecting to see your name on a passage or on a command of God?

Do you recognize the Bible as God's word to you personally?

The commands of the Bible contained in the Ten Commandments are intended for the entire human race. Jesus' words in the Gospels were certainly intended for you and me. Do you believe this?

Whether you realize or not, God's moral law applies to all humanity.

I would think that as a Seventh-day Adventist, you would have recongized this a long time ago.

The Bible is actually God's love letter to each person on earth.

Do you acknowledge God's commandments as moral imperatives that you are responsible to God for obeying?

[Tom Wetmore]

Why are you so obsessed with responding (or is it refuting?) what cardw posted?

Let it go man!

I think he has already said that you do not understand what he said.

This has gotten all rather silly, IMHO.

OK, I will leave now so you can have the last word...

[John317]

Why are you so obsessed with responding (or is it refuting?) what cardw posted?

Let it go man!

There was a post which stated that the writer cannot imagine why God would command anyone to worship or obey Him.

And after that, instead of helping a fellow SDA answer the question, you spend all these posts talking about nonsense and making excuses as to why you wouldn't direct your comments to cardw's post. fccool did the same thing. You did not address any of your posts to the objections or statements of either of them, even though they wrote things that you claim you don't agree with. You told me, on the other hand, that you agree with me about God's giving us commandments, yet instead of responding to cardw and fccool about their objections concerning the law and God's love, which is what the topic is on, you directed your posts to me about things that have nothing to do with the subject.

fccool wanted me to get off onto Plato and philosophical questions, and you made a claim that you had answered cardw's post. When I asked you where you did it, you didn't reply. Now you say it is merely silly for me to ask you about cardw's post, and that I must be "obsessed."

I don't write only for posters but for people who come on the Forum and read the threads. So it doesn't matter if cardw is interested in my answer. Maybe he isn't, but that is not the point. The point is that it deserves an answer. I think those posts need to be answered because readers would like to see them answered.

[fccool]

Quote:

Are you seriously expecting to see your name on a passage or on a command of God?

No, but my point is that it's should pass through certain degree of discernible filters. You don't consider a command to stone people to be a command to "us". You make a distinction. There's a difference between a command FOR US and a command TO US.

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Do you recognize the Bible as God's word to you personally?

Can you define "personal" for me? I think you misunderstand what it means, and you'll understand what I'm talking about when you define it.

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The commands of the Bible contained in the Ten Commandments are intended for the entire human race. Jesus' words in the Gospels were certainly intended for you and me. Do you believe this?

Perhaps in principle, but not literally. 10 Commandments have a very specific language that refers to a very specific group of people. We have to understand where, why, and hows of it in order to apply it properly.

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Whether you realize or not, God's moral law applies to all humanity. I would think that as a Seventh-day Adventist, you would have recongized this a long time ago.

I think that as a Christian you should recognize that following law does not result in love, neither does it result in understanding. Even criminals can follow the law.

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The Bible is actually God's love letter to each person on earth.

Bible is a historical record of a nation, and a perverted view of religion that followed from improper understanding of the law. And then a subsequent correction of that view by God himself, who had to come down himself to make a point that love worth more that "rules", but forgiving even those who cursed and beat him.

"Love letter" is the way modern pastors like to present it to infatuated public who neither reads nor understands it.

It's a great way of describing it, but I don't think it's accurate. Love letters are simple and to the point. If that was all that Bible was, then we would not be having this discussion.

You are presenting it not as love letter, but rather as "imperatives that you are responsible for obeying". Send one to your wife, and see how she responds

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Do you acknowledge God's commandments as moral imperatives that you are responsible to God for obeying?

I don't think you understand what I'm telling you. So what if I obey them? The criminals obey them... the ones that would murder, rape and pillage if there were none.

If there were none, I would still live them out through love. The people who only love themselves would careless. They are not "lawless". They follow the law. They are loveless.

In love, the law is fulfilled. Where there's love, the law only serves to protect the loving. When love is complete, there's no need for the law at all.

If you are looking at it as a "moral imperative" you still looking at it through a mindset of a criminal.

[John317]

... How can you command someone to love? Love can't be a response to a command by mere definition of what love is.

We can't and shouldn't.

The Holy Spirit is there to help us to love God, and if we allow Him to, He will change us so that we are able to love God as God commands us. Our loves grows the more we experience Him in our lives and in the lives of others. Our love for Him also grows as we study Him in both the Bible and in nature.

But first of all, you need to recongize and acknowledge that God commands all humans to love Him and to love other people.

Why do you have a problem with saying that God commands "us" to love Him and to worship Him?

When Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for the benefit of mankind," do you believe Jesus' words do not involve you at all?

[fccool]

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But first of all, you need to recongize and acknowledge that God commands all humans to love Him and to love other people.

How will that invoke any love on our part? You keep repeating this, but command to love does not result in love! You should try it sometimes and see what I'm talking about.

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Why do you have a problem with saying that God commands "us" to love Him and to worship Him?

Have you read anything that I've posted?

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When Jesus said, "The Sabbath was made for the benefit of mankind," do you believe Jesus' words do not involve you at all?

Were horses made for benefit of the mankind. Do you ride horses?

My point is not that the law does not concern me. My point is that it was not given personally to me, something that you are trying to make a point of. It was not personal. It was personal to Moses. It was personal to Israel at the base of Sinai. It relates to me, but it was given FOR ME, not TO ME.

[John317]

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But first of all, you need to recongize and acknowledge that God commands all humans to love Him and to love other people.

How will that invoke any love on our part? You keep repeating this, but command to love does not result in love! You should try it sometimes and see what I'm talking about.

I haven't always loved God or Jesus but I do now. How did that happen? It began with my recognition of God's command that I love Him.

As I said, God doesn't give a command without also providing the power to obey and fulfill the command.

If you always go on denying that God did not command humans to love Him and saying that this command does not apply to you, you won't be able to face the truth about God's relationship to all human beings.

[John317]

You completely misunderstand the idea of worship, if you think that God somehow wants us to feel like insignificant dirt, and praise Him for being such an awesome entity.

Where did you get this idea-- that I was saying those things about God? Could you show me what I said that drew this response from you?

[fccool]

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I haven't always loved God or Jesus but I do now. How did that happen? It began with my recognition of God's command that I love Him.

As I said, God doesn't give a command without also providing the power to obey and fulfill the command.

If you always go on denying that God did not command humans to love Him and saying that this command does not apply to you, you won't be able to face the truth about God's relationship to all human beings.

I don't think that you understand this, but what you are essentially saying is that God compels us to love him as means of loving him. He stirs up some "feeling and call" through the Holy Spirit and us recognizing a command to do so. We either reject that call to love, or we accept it and love God. Love can't be forced, neither can it force itself on you.

I can tell you why I love God. It is not because the magic of the Holy Spirit. It was not because He commanded me to. It's because I love people, I love what he created, and I love what He is about. I understand it, and I have very similar outlook on life... the very thing that he made this world for. I can empathize with both who don't believe, and those who do... those who like me, and those who hate me. And some of them really taught me more about God's love than Bible ever can. And that's why I love God. I can see God in people.

I came to this understanding that some people love God, and they don't even know it. They don't need a command to read to do so. The law emanates from their love of humanity.

I don't have to muddy it up with "correctness of my dogma". It will only makes things worse for them.

[John317]

Do you acknowledge God's commandments as moral imperatives that you are responsible to God for obeying?

Originally Posted By: fccool

I don't think you understand what I'm telling you. So what if I obey them? The criminals obey them... the ones that would murder, rape and pillage if there were none.

Yes, but there's a difference between obeying them because they are a part of us and obeying them because they are "laws" exterior to ourselves.

Some people only do right out of fear of punishment or only because there's a policeman nearby. That is obviously not what I'm talking about.

Why does the Bible says Jesus obeyed the law of God?

See Hebrews 10: 7. The Bible says that Jesus obeyed God's law because He had the law of God on His heart. It was a part of His very being. That is how we can become also through God's Holy Spirit. God has promised and He will do it.

[fccool]

Quote:

Where did you get this idea-- that I was saying those things about God? Could you show me what I said that drew this response from you?

It does not merely follows from this thread, but from our previous discussion of sinful nature of humanity (without any hint of goodness, and completely selfish), thus the understanding of worship becomes yet another "do" that people must do as a command to get better.

I.E. Why did God give a command to worship Him?

What else can it do for people who don't understand love, other than pinpoint their insignificance in comparison to the Creator?

[John317]

You must have me mixed up with someone else. I don't even believe in total depravity. It sounds like you got me confused with a person named Robert with whom I used to discuss these things a lot. He is the one who believed what you are claiming I said.

[fccool]

Why does the Bible says Jesus obeyed the law of God?

See Hebrews 10: 7. The Bible says that Jesus obeyed God's law because He had the law of God on His heart. It was a part of His very being. That is how we can become also through God's Holy Spirit. God has promised and He will do it.

This is another misconception. (edit.. in respect to Holy Spirit statement, not the one above)

1) Does God force you to love him?

2) What is the work of the Holy Spirit in unbelievers?

John 16:8, "And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment."

That's essentially the work of the Holy Spirit. Is to show people right from wrong. That in itself does not result in love. It only gives you some idea that there is something wrong with you.

Love results from receiving it, understanding what it is about, and desire to give it to other. It results from people living it out in their lives. Not through mere command of God, but through desire to share the awesomeness of it. Once you experience it and you are open, you will want to share it. Not through dogma, and paper leaflets on the door steps. But through genuine interest and desire to understand and fulfill needs of other.

[fccool]

You must have me mixed up with someone else. I don't even believe in total depravity. It sounds like you got me confused with a person named Robert with whom I used to discuss these things a lot. He is the one who believed what you are claiming I said.

I apologize, if that's the case.

[fccool]

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Some people only do right out of fear of punishment or only because there's a policeman nearby. That is obviously not what I'm talking about.

But that's what it ends up being to other people. I don't think you even realize it. It not becomes the issue of love. It becomes issue of the law. You don't hear Aventists speak about love too much. You hear quite a bit about law. And that's why the atmosphere in church is rather rigid and of constant suspicion.

Are you sure you are Adventist? Well, you don't believe in point #26. I think we should review your membership in our church!

We are not preaching love, we are preaching the importance of the law. I understanding the underlying concept... but it's concept that goes unmentioned.

If people are shown love, then the law is simply an extension of their understanding of love. If people merely shown the law, then that's what they understand. They understand the law and everything becomes about the law. The love is lost somewhere as a small print at the bottom of the page.

People don't come to love through law. The come to law through love. That's why it's a huge misrepresentation to say that "I've heard this person on the radio saying that we don't need no law. He thinks we can steal, commit adultery, and still be ok with God"

That's not what most of these people are saying! They are saying the same thing I am saying. Law is for criminals. Loving people don't concern themselves with law. To them it's a common sense. They don't need it as a constant reminder of what they should and should not do. It's a second nature. They've seen the love, and if any restrains of law enforcement are taken away, they will not kill, or rape, or steal... because they love.

It does not mean however that all come to all knowledge and understanding simultaneously. Understanding leads to love of God. Some people develop that understanding only partially. It does not mean that they are Babylon simply because they are not convinced about Sabbath, and that they don't see eschatology in the same manner.

If they love people, then everything else will eventually fall in place. God will reveal and convince them of proper perspective in due time.

[KIWI-SDA]

Agree wholeheartedly with that! Let the Holy Spirit do the work of convicting..

[John317]

Quote:

Some people only do right out of fear of punishment or only because there's a policeman nearby. That is obviously not what I'm talking about.

But that's what it ends up being to other people. I don't think you even realize it.

Yes, I realize this is the case with many people. Why would you think I don't realize it? I see it all the time. The newspapers are full of the evidence.

[John317]

Welcome to ClubAdventist, bound4heaven2. Thank you for choosing to join and post here.

You're right that the Holy Spirit does the work of convicting.

The Bible also shows that the Holy Spirit uses people to convict others of right and wrong.