SDA Pastor Openly Supports Homosexual Relationships

[John317]

When God Disagrees with God, Whom Do You Follow?

By Todd J. Leonard

Ryan J. Bell

...

Todd J. Leonard has been a pastor for 11 years, serving Adventist churches in Georgia and Tennessee. In May 2011, he joined the staff of the Vallejo Drive Seventh-day Adventist Church in Glendale, California as Pastor for Collegiate and Young Adult Ministries. He has been married for 14 years to Robin, mother of their daughters Halle, Abigail and Emma. Todd's 1999 M.Div. from Andrews University helps him focus his passion for creating communities of faith that welcome people from all walks of life and compassionately serve their cities. Todd@reconcilerestore.net

I was wondering about who he is and whether he is a current pastor in our church.

He is only about 50 miles from where I live.

[John317]

...All who would fearlessly serve God according to the dictates of their own conscience, will need moral courage, firmness, and a knowledge of God and his word, to stand in that evil day. {LP 251.1}

We're living in that time now.

When I was baptized and joined the church, I never thought the day would come THIS SOON when members of my own church would say things that seem to me a clear encouragement to continue sinning and even living in sin.

I only hope that my "friend" who was baptized with me is hanging on to Jesus and not letting these things discourage him. I lost contact with him about 12 years ago, when he moved to Hawaii, but I think of him often and pray that he is doing well spiritually.

[John317]

...

[John317]

... If accepting bisexual and transgendered individuals into our faith communities seems like something Jesus would do, can’t we just go with the Spirit of Jesus? Those of us who hold to the traditional reading of Leviticus 20.13 have already chosen to disobey God’s command to kill practicing homosexuals. Can’t we just disobey the rest of that verse in light of the ministry of Jesus and how the Spirit is working today in LGBT individuals around the world and welcome them into our midst as spirit-filled men and women of God?

...

This seems to me an aburd statement. I do not believe I'm disobeying God's command when I fail to kill practicing homosexuals, and for this reason:

That was a part of God's law during the time when the nation of Israel was a theocracy, with God as its King. We no longer live under a theocracy.

The principle of the civil laws still applies to us today, but we are ruled by the civil laws of the countries that we live in. It would obviously be against the law of the United States for American citizens to kill practicing homosexuals. (I should only disobey my country's laws if they are opposed to God's law.)

The principle that governs us is that the laws of God teach that the practice of homosexuality is a sin. And Christ taught us that we are to love the sinner while hating the sin. That is what Christ our role-model did and it is how God deals with all of us.

[teresaq]

what does that look like to you? How do you see that in practice? Would someone else see it in practice differently?

...Christ taught us that we are to love the sinner while hating the sin. That is what Christ our role-model did and it is how God deals with all of us.

[John317]

...what does that look like to you? How do you see that in practice? Would someone else see it in practice differently?

I had said:

Originally Posted By: John317

...Christ taught us that we are to love the sinner while hating the sin. That is what Christ our role-model did and it is how God deals with all of us.

Please explain further what you are asking.

Not sure what you mean by "that" and "it." What exactly are you talking about?

I don't like to guess what you have in mind.

I assume you mean how do I see "loving" homosexuals in practice. How do I show this?

Do you want a personal report of how I do it?

And are you asking me if I think other people will agree with me that I love the homosexual and hate the practice of homosexuality? If that is what you are asking, I am positive not everyone will see it that way, but then not everyone sees anything the same way.

[teresaq]

If you don't understand then you don't, that's ok.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

...what does that look like to you? How do you see that in practice? Would someone else see it in practice differently?

I had said:

Originally Posted By: John317

...Christ taught us that we are to love the sinner while hating the sin. That is what Christ our role-model did and it is how God deals with all of us.

Please explain further what you are asking.

Not sure what you mean by "that" and "it." What exactly are you talking about?

I don't like to guess what you have in mind.

I assume you mean how do I see "loving" homosexuals in practice. How do I show this?

Do you want a personal report of how I do it?

And are you asking me if I think other people will agree with me that I love the homosexual and hate the practice of homosexuality? If that is what you are asking, I am positive not everyone will see it that way, but then not everyone sees anything the same way.

[John317]

If you were talking to someone in person, would you tell them that you won't explain what you mean by your questions?

You don't appear to me to be sincerely interested in communciating with people. People who are don't say, "Well, if you don't understand what I said before, I'm not going to explain it."

[BobRyan]

This seems to me an aburd statement. I do not believe I'm disobeying God's command when I fail to kill practicing homosexuals, and for this reason:

That was a part of God's law during the time when the nation of Israel was a theocracy, with God as its King. We no longer live under a theocracy.

The principle of the civil laws still applies to us today, but we are ruled by the civil laws of the countries that we live in.

Agreed - as you point out - you are merely stating the obvious.

Would you accept former axe murderers, thugs, pimps, prostitutes into your faith community? Why "yes"! Because all have sinned and God can rescue and forgive those people just like he can forgive the adulterer, liar, homosexual etc and give them all victory over sin.

But what some people really mean is "would you accept a practicing prostitute into your faith community as if practicing prostitution was ok for Christians?" - and sadly the confused jumbled view of the Word of God that leads them to ask such questions is also just as obviously and transparently flawed when coming from someone inside the church as when it comes from someone outside the church.

in Christ,

Bob

[John317]

...Would you accept former axe murderers, thugs, pimps, prostitutes into your faith community? Why "yes"! Because all have sinned and God can rescue and forgive those people just like he can forgive the adulterer, liar, homosexual etc and give them all victory over sin.

But what some people really mean is "would you accept a practicing prostitute into your faith community as if practicing prostitution was ok for Christians?" - and sadly the confused jumbled view of the Word of God that leads them to ask such questions is also just as obviously and transparently flawed when coming from someone inside the church as when it comes from someone outside the church.

Great point, Bob. Couldn't have said it better myself. :-)

I had thought yesterday something along the line of, How about accepting a practicing thief or extortionist?

Notice that the Holy Spirit inspired Paul to put all those sins in the same category, all of which will keep people out of the kingdom of God. 1 Cor. 6: 9-10.

Why aren't we teaching people that God can justify, wash, and sanctify people so that they no longer practice those sins?

Is it possible we no longer believe God can do it? Why are some of our ministers seemingly giving up hope that God can change people and make them happy doing His will? Why do so many appear to assume that people can only be happy violating God's commandments?

[phkrause]

Is it possible we no longer believe God can do it? Why are some of our ministers seemingly giving up hope that God can change people and make them happy doing His will? Why do so many appear to assume that people can only be happy violating God's commandments?

It seems to me that they believe its not a sin, because many are being told its the way that they are born. Personally I'm not sure if that's correct or Satan has purverdid(sp) things so bad that we have no idea anymore.

[Dr. Shane]

Shane and John, I think you're both speaking for God without having His mind.

[teresaq]

I am sorry if that is what you read into my post but I can't change how you read things. Sorry.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

If you don't understand then you don't, that's ok.

If you were talking to someone in person, would you tell them that you won't explain what you mean by your questions?

You don't appear to me to be sincerely interested in communciating with people. People who are don't say, "Well, if you don't understand what I said before, I'm not going to explain it."

[Stan]

Shane and John, I think you're both speaking for God without having His mind.

I don't believe it is our duty to decide that a homosexual person would be "happier" alone than with a partner. I don't think God wants us making decisions for anybody else.

Also, I don't equate church *membership* with *holding church office.* In other words, certain qualifications for office are required of every candidate, and that is the duty of the nominating committee to ascertain. But for us not to allow church *membership* to someone just because he's gay, is I believe an abominable abuse of power.

I tend to lean this way.

I think God, with his wisdom and power, does not need us to speak for him.

[Dr. Shane]

I think the Bible is clearer on the issue of homosexuality than it is on the Sabbath, the state of the dead or salvation by grace. If we can read the clear words of Scripture regarding those doctrines and understand them, we should have no problem understanding God's message regarding homosexuality.

[John317]

I agree with you. The Bible is about as clear on this subject as it possibly can be. But when people don't want to believe the Bible, as on the Sabbath and the state of the dead, it is very easy to find reasons not to accept what the Bible teaches. God allows people wriggle room; he never forces people to see the truth.

[John317]

I tend to lean this way.

I think God, with his wisdom and power, does not need us to speak for him.

But it seems to me that the same argument could be made about the Sabbath and the state of the dead, the Three Angels' Messages, etc.

Doesn't God expect us to tell what the Bible teaches on the practice of homosexuality?

[John317]

I think God, with his wisdom and power, does not need us to speak for him.

What do you think of Pastor Leonard's support of homosexual relationships?

And do you know of other SDA pastors who've expressed similar beliefs?

[John317]

Is it possible we no longer believe God can do it? Why are some of our ministers seemingly giving up hope that God can change people and make them happy doing His will? Why do so many appear to assume that people can only be happy violating God's commandments?

Originally Posted By: pkrause

It seems to me that they believe its not a sin, because many are being told its the way that they are born. Personally I'm not sure if that's correct or Satan has purverdid(sp) things so bad that we have no idea anymore.

Yes, it is possible they were born "that way." I have no doubt that I was born "that way." I certainly didn't wake up one day and decide to be attracted to my own gender.

So let's assume that at least some gays are born with that particular predisposition. I have read studies that do support that view.

But even if it is true, is God unable to give us the power to change?

I don't mean to suggest that God will make all gays into heterosexuals. He might do that sometimes but it's apparent that God doesn't always choose to do that.

So the real question is should I continue to do what the Bible says I should not do, merely because I think it's hard not to do it?

Is being born "that way" an excuse in God's eyes to keep living "that way"?

I can tell you it is not an excuse-- and will not be an excuse in the judgment-- because we can resist and overcome it through God's power. If I can do it with His power, anyone can do it.

Ellen White wrote:

Quote:

Parents may understand that as they follow God's directions in the training of their children, they will receive help from on high. They receive much benefit; for as they teach, they learn. Their children will achieve victories through the knowledge that they have acquired in keeping the way of the Lord. They are enabled to overcome natural and hereditary tendencies to evil. {AH 205.2}

Quote:

Let us lay aside the warfare the enemy would have us put on. Let us begin to work in earnest to overcome our hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil. Let us plead with God to take away the wicked propensity to faultfinding, and in its place to give us life and the love of Christ. . . . {CTr 214.6}

We have a heaven to win, and Christ wants us to have it. He died that we might have it. Every soul who is saved in the kingdom of God will give the glory to Him, not to any human being. Christ will open for us the golden gates; He will invite us to enter. . . . {CTr 214.7}

And we must enter heaven here below or we shall never enter the heaven hereafter. Right here on this earth we must begin to live the life of Christ, and then it will be a heaven to you and it will be a heaven to those who associate with you. . . . And at last you will see the King in His beauty; you will behold His matchless charms and, touching the golden harp, fill heaven with rich music and songs to the Lamb.—Manuscript 97, 1906. {CTr 214.8}

[John317]

Are you saying you still kill homosexuals?

If you don't, aren't you choosing to disobey a direct command of the Lord?

Do you pick and choose which commands you will obey, and which you will disregard/disobey?

Lev 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

The direct command of God to kill homosexuals doesn't apply to us today, since it was a part of the civil law under the theocracy of Israel. But the Bible teaching that homosexual acts and homosexual relations are wrong is just as true today as it was in Moses' time.

It's like the Sabbath in that way. God commanded that Sabbath breakers should be killed, yet of course we don't do that; but our not killing Sabbath-breakers doesn't mean that the Sabbath is no longer holy.

[John317]

... Those of us who hold to the traditional reading of Leviticus 20.13 have already chosen to disobey God's command to kill practicing homosexuals. Can't we just disobey the rest of that verse in light of the ministry of Jesus and how the Spirit is working today in LGBT individuals around the world and welcome them into our midst as spirit-filled men and women of God?

Notice the logic, and tell me if it sounds familiar in relationship to another issue:

This pastor is saying that since we already don't enforce God's command strictly about homosexuals-- that is, since we don't kill them-- then we should just go ahead and accept practicing homosexuals as members of the church.

And why? Because we see how God is blessing the "LGBT" individuals.

Where else do we see this kind of reasoning?

A couple of years ago, I wrote on this Forum that the time would come when SDAs would argue that practicing gays should be allowed in the church because of how God seems to be blessing them.

It is the same argument that has been used to push for women's ordination and women being elders and pastors: how can the church block them from the ministry when they are being blessed by God in the ministry?

How also can we block practicing gays from being members and pastors when they are being so blessed of God?

How is God blessing gay people? Is it by helping them overcome sin? That's what it should be and what it could be. But sad to say, it is now being taught by some SDA pastors that God's blessing of gays is seen in their insisting on practicing homosexuality.

Anyone see anything shocking or astonishing in these things?

Instead of studying the Bible to determine the truth about these matters, some members of the church are apparently looking outside the Bible for confirmation of what they want to do.

The same reasons were offered by the non-SDA churches that already accept practicing gays as pastors and priests. Will our SDA Church be next?

[John317]

Yet wouldn't you agree that if the church acknowledges that openly practicing gays are able to be church members in good standing, there is no reason not to accept them also as pastors, teachers, and church officers?

Originally Posted By: Jeannieb43

Sorry, John, I only just now saw this post.

I do assuredly believe that there are many reasons why some "church members in good standing" should NOT be elected as church officers - of any type. This is the function of the church nominating committee, or of the conference executive committee, for example, in winnowing out the unqualified persons for those offices. A person's sexual orientation should be only one factor to be considered. And then only if it would negatively impact his/her ministry.

The problem is, though, that if a practicing homosexual is accepted as a member of the church, there's no reason why their orientation should keep them from being elected to a church office.

It seems to me to be unreasonable to say that a practicing homosexual can be a member in good standing, and that they are not doing anything sinful or wrong, and yet deny them a church office only on the basis of their homosexual practices.

My reason for asking the question as I did was to point out what the church would eventually face if it decides to accept practicing homosexuals as members of the church.

[Gordon1]

It is the same argument that has been used to push for women's ordination and women being elders and pastors

Yes John, as discussed last summer, women's ordination to leadership would act as the opening wedge to bring in a homosexual clergy. This pattern has been established in numerous denominations. Deception works incrementally to upset God's established order, until confusion reigns, and finally Satan himself is welcomed as the Messiah. Calling good evil and evil good.

Homosexual clergy could be the last straw - the abomination that maketh desolate. Can we move further from God's original plan?

[Gordon1]

Anyone see anything shocking or astonishing in these things?

Yes and quite sure EGW saw it all & more. The number crunchers might be more accepting - the gay community reportedly has more disposable income. Church coffers are always wanting.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: John317

It is the same argument that has been used to push for women's ordination and women being elders and pastors

Yes John, as discussed last summer, women's ordination to leadership would act as the opening wedge to bring in a homosexual clergy. This pattern has been established in numerous denominations. Deception works incrementally to upset God's established order, until confusion reigns, and finally Satan himself is welcomed as the Messiah. Calling good evil and evil good.

Homosexual clergy could be the last straw - the abomination that maketh desolate. Can we move further from God's original plan?

Last straw... of the straw man argument....

Why does someone always regurgitate that old red herring of an argument? The connection is a figment of fevered imaginations... It is the Adventist forum WO version of Godwin's law...

It is abundantly clear that the denominations that have endorsed women in ministry for the longest remain strongly and consistently opposed to gay/lesbian clergy.

And besides, it seems the church most vigorously and intractably opposed to women in ministry, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church, has the largest percentage of homosexual priests. If the dots could be connected, it would seem more likely that opposition to WO spawns gay clergy...

We have been round this barn before...