SDA Pastor Openly Supports Homosexual Relationships

[John317]

You might be right, Tom. I believe time will tell, though.

Do you agree with the pastor's reasoning as to why we should accept practicing homosexuals as church members?

One of his reasons is that God is blessing gay people. He is basically pushing aside the evidence of Scripture and claiming that we should make our decision on this issue on the basis of what appears to be God's blessing of gays who don't abide by the Bible's teachings or by the church's position.

[teresaq]

Interesting points and contrasts.

I think it tends to boil down to differing pictures of what "love" is. One side believes it would be practicing God's love to allow PHs to become members.

As far as I can see the other side hasn't really shown what God's love would look like in relating to PHs in that situation.

I wonder if we would "allow" practicing homosexuals to even attend church? For their sake, should we? What I mean is, aren't there too many who would all too gladly grab their bibles and insist on showing them the errors of their (the PHs) ways, while all too ignorant of the beam in their own eye?

Secondly I don't think most SDA churches would even allow it (PHs just attending regularly-but not members) out of fear that "others" would think we encouraged such behavior.

...

And besides, it seems the church most vigorously and intractably opposed to women in ministry, i.e. the Roman Catholic Church, has the largest percentage of homosexual priests. If the dots could be connected, it would seem more likely that opposition to WO spawns gay clergy...

We have been round this barn before...

[John317]

Interesting points and contrasts.

I wonder if we would "allow" practicing homosexuals to even attend church? For their sake, should we?

Yes, as a church we definitely would and do. I was a practicing homosexual for a long time and I sometimes attended various churches in Loma Linda as well as a church in San Diego where eventually my gay lover and I were baptized. People in the church were praying for me and for my "room-mate," and as a result of those prayers, we both ended up deciding to go to a Quite Hour evngelistic series and being baptized.

We decided on our own-- apart from anyone in the church saying anything-- that we could not continue living together, even though we loved each other very much. He and I had been planning on getting "married" not very long before we decided to go to the meetings.

(We got an invitation in the mail, and it was the last thing anyone could have imagined we'd have done. He was brought up a Roman Catholic but was not at all religious, having graduated from Hollywood High School and got into film. I still find it amazing that he chose to go there with me. He was very active in the gay community as an entertainer and host. We both attended the gay church in San Diego, more out of a desire to meet others gays than anything else.)

I went through about 25 years where I was alternately struggling against those things and living fully committed to the gay life, living with different men. One of my boy friends met a well-known SDA official in a bathroom and they became good friends for a long time. My boyfriend "lent" me to this SDA official for a sleep over during the time he was staying in L.A. for a conference on education.(He was education secretary of a conference and was helping to produce the books for our SDA youth.)

I tell you these things straight-up in order for you to understand what's it like.

Meantime I was officially a church member and I also sometimes continued to go with family members to the SDA church. It was not a secret that I was living this way. My father was a pastor.

I didn't give up that life until only about 7 years ago now. These are pictures of me from about 2005:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/165910/12.html

Anyway I never felt unwelcome in the SDA church. I still never have experienced anything negative in the church or from church members. Sadly, though, I know that not all gays can say this. There's Parade Orange's experience, for instance.

[John317]

Interesting points and contrasts.

I think it tends to boil down to differing pictures of what "love" is. One side believes it would be practicing God's love to allow PHs to become members.

What do you believe?

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

As far as I can see the other side hasn't really shown what God's love would look like in relating to PHs in that situation.

What would you do if you were a leader-- or perhaps only a regular member-- in your local church and you knew that one of the members was a practicing homosexual?

Let's say that one of the members was known to go to a gay bar and go home with men. Or maybe he is living with another man as his lover. Or maybe he has been seen going to men's bathrooms for the purpose of meeting men.

These are very real situations.

What do you believe God would have you do?

[teresaq]

Must have been really hard on your wife during that time. Where was she while you were living with someone else? How were you going to get married if you were already married?

Guess I'm a bit confused on the sequence of events in the timeline of your various posts.

... I was a practicing homosexual for a long time and I sometimes attended various churches in Loma Linda as well as a church in San Diego where eventually my gay lover and I were baptized. People in the church were praying for me and for my "room-mate," and as a result of those prayers, we both ended up deciding to go to a Quite Hour evngelistic series and being baptized.

We decided on our own-- apart from anyone in the church saying anything-- that we could not continue living together, even though we loved each other very much. He and I had been planning on getting "married" not very long before we decided to go to the meetings.

(We got an invitation in the mail, and it was the last thing anyone could have imagined we'd have done. He was brought up a Roman Catholic but was not at all religious, having graduated from Hollywood High School and got into film. I still find it amazing that he chose to go there with me. He was very active in the gay community as an entertainer and host. We both attended the gay church in San Diego, more out of a desire to meet others gays than anything else.)

I went through about 25 years where I was alternately struggling against those things and living fully committed to the gay life, living with different men. One of my boy friends met a well-known SDA official in a bathroom and they became good friends for a long time. My boyfriend "lent" me to this SDA official for a sleep over during the time he was staying in L.A. for a conference on education.(He was education secretary of a conference and was helping to produce the books for our SDA youth.)

I tell you these things straight-up in order for you to understand what's it like.

Meantime I was officially a church member and I also sometimes continued to go with family members to the SDA church. It was not a secret that I was living this way. My father was a pastor.

I didn't give up that life until only about 7 years ago now. ...

[John317]

Should I play your game? Don't worry, I don't do that. :-)

I wasn't married to my wife at the time I was living in San Diego and planning on getting married to my boyfriend. That was before I married my wife. I was actually married twice. My plan to marry my boyfriend was before I married my wife.

Both times I married a woman, I thought it would help me lead a "normal" heterosexual life. Many gays do this. I actually swore to myself when I was in my early twenties that I would NEVER do this (after I went out one night with a boyfriend and another man who was cheating on his wife, which I hated thinking of doing!), but that was when I had no desire to change. But when I became a Christian, I thought that it was what God wanted me to do, and I really believed that I could live as a heterosexual, especially once I got married, but it didn't work out that way. So I was married for 7 years, and about 5 of those years were good, but I began to have terrible problems within about 9 months aftter marriage. I eventually went to an SDA pastor for counseling for about 6 months. (My pastor-counsler soon left the church and his wife because of an affair he was having during that time.)

It was a mistake both times for me to get married but I know now that God was involved in both those relationships. I'm happily married now and have 4 children from those marriages. My eldest daughter just the other day had my fifth grandchild.

[Dr. Shane]

Why does someone always regurgitate that old red herring of an argument? The connection is a figment of fevered imaginations... It is the Adventist forum WO version of Godwin's law...

We have been round this barn before...

I have never heard someone try to connect women's ordination to gay clergy before. Where have I been?

I do support women's ordination but do not support gay clergy (at least if they are practicing homosexuality).

[Dr. Shane]

As far as I can see the other side hasn't really shown what God's love would look like in relating to PHs in that situation.

I ran a gay-outreach ministry for three years while I was in college and the local Seventh-day Adventist church financially supported it.

There are Adventist ministries set up for gays and lesbians.

Here is one link -> GL Adventist

Here is another -> Victor J. Adamson

[teresaq]

Thanks Shane but I think we may be on two different railroad tracks here. And maybe not.

My observation was,

I think it tends to boil down to differing pictures of what "love" is. One side believes it would be practicing God's love to allow PHs to become members.

As far as I can see the other side hasn't really shown what God's love would look like in relating to PHs in that situation.

[Dr. Shane]

Are you saying that those who would allow practicing homosexuals church membership do not support those groups?

[BobRyan]

You might be right, Tom. I believe time will tell, though.

Do you agree with the pastor's reasoning as to why we should accept practicing homosexuals as church members?

One of his reasons is that God is blessing gay people. He is basically pushing aside the evidence of Scripture and claiming that we should make our decision on this issue on the basis of what appears to be God's blessing of gays who don't abide by the Bible's teachings or by the church's position.

The good thing is that he freely admits he is doing away with the God of the Bible and trading Him in for a god of his own making - one that fits his feelings.

I prefer to believe in the God of the Bible - to hold to the Word of God as my standard of truth, of behavior.

In my earlier post I mention that former prostitutes, thugs, theives etc are always welcomed in our church. But some people believe that it is unkind or unloving to say that prostitution and homosexuality are not right for christians.

At least that is what I have found when I visit some non-SDA discussion boards.

in Christ,

Bob

[teresaq]

I find that quite true in another area God frowns on. Perhaps it is in the way we present it. I mean, perhaps they are seeing us as unloving.

... But some people believe that it is unkind or unloving to say that prostitution and homosexuality are not right for christians.

[teresaq]

Hmmm, we're still on different tracks I see and the tracks veered even farther apart. lol

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Are you saying that those who would allow practicing homosexuals church membership do not support those groups?

I can't speak for them.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

That they are only run and supported by those who are against church membership for PHs?

Membership in the Adventist church is for those that believe as Adventists.

Let's think about that.

If I don't believe what Catholics believe - why would I want to join a Catholic church?

If I don't believe what Mormons believe - why would I want to join a Mormon church?

Adventists believe it is a sin to practice homosexuality.

There are two groups of gays.

One group of gays believe it is OK to practice homosexuality. They do not believe there is anything immoral or sinful about practicing homosexuality.

The other group of gays has a moral dilemma. They believe homosexual behavior is wrong. Some feel it is wrong because of public scorn, others for religious reasons, others for family reasons, and probably others for other reasons. Whatever the reason may be, they believe it is wrong and yet they have a desire to practice it.

Many Adventists have no issue with allowing the second group of gays belong to the church. Many Adventists simply don't understand why those in the first group would want to be a member.

[Dr. Shane]

Hmmm, we're still on different tracks I see and the tracks veered even farther apart.

I don't know what "track" you are on. I am discussing gays that practice homosexuality. There are two groups. One group justifies the behavior and the other doesn't. The first group should not desire membership with a church that disagrees with them on a very important part of their lives. The second group (those that do not justify it) are normally accepted into membership.

[teresaq]

Actually you quoted part of my post when this started but got on another railroad track with it. In the second post you left the state entirely. Now you are talking to yourself 'cause you left me behind on that other track, in that other state. lol

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

Hmmm, we're still on different tracks I see and the tracks veered even farther apart.

I don't know what "track" you are on. I am discussing gays that practice homosexuality.

[John317]

I see thoughts in general by those who are against allowing membership of PHs. Those thoughts do not look like they are coming from any kind of caring for persons with that particular bent, to me at least, hence my observation.

I don't believe you're thinking this issue through.

To allow membership in the church of practicing homosexuals would accomplish two things:

1) It would tell people that practicing homosexuality is OK and that there is nothing wrong with homosexual practices. This would be a denial of what the Bible teaches, and particulary of what it says in 1 Cor. 6: 9-11. In this way, it would prevent many people from being saved because accepting them as members in that sitatuation would mean they would continue practicing homosexuality. If the church recognizes it as OK, and tells them that they aren't expected to stop those sins, it's unreasonable to expect them to make efforts to change.

2) It would cause a lot of people to be members of the church who shouldn't be members. In other words, it would be harmful to the church itself, just like it would be harmful to the church to knowingly accept practicing thieves, adulterers, liars, idolaters. drunkards, revilers, extortionists, etc.

By practicing, I mean people who have no intention of changing but who plan to continue those sins.

I believe that if the above is taken into consideration, it will be seen that this position is based on love for God, love for gays, and love for the SDA Church. It is those who simply want to accept practicing gays as church members who do not love them. They are basically telling them that they're OK when they aren't. Love doesn't do that. That is like watching someone drowning and doing nothing about it but blowing them kisses.

[John317]

I have never heard someone try to connect women's ordination to gay clergy before. Where have I been?

What I'm observing is that just as people concede that the Bible doesn't give much support for Women's Ordination, and therefore find their support for it in the blessings of God that they believe they see among women who are pastors--- so the people who concede that the Bible doesn't support the practice of homosexuality, find support for their position in the blessings of God that they believe they see among gays who practice homosexuality within the church.

I said about two years ago that we would see this kind of thing happening, and the letter by the SDA pastor who says these very things is confirmation that this is beginning to happen. It was the argument made by people in other churches who eventually went on to accept practicing homosexuals in their ministry.

[John317]

..The good thing is that he freely admits he is doing away with the God of the Bible and trading Him in for a god of his own making - one that fits his feelings.

I agree completely with you.

It's far better that someone openly tell his beliefs than hide them and yet work towards having those beliefs become a reality.

Imagine if this kind of thinking becomes accepted in the SDA church. I see this as a real possibility if the majority of the church are not converted and do not have a good grasp of what the Bible teaches about these things.

If our main objective is to prove that we are loving and accepting of all people, and if as a church we are unwilling to stand up for what the Bible teaches, then our church will eventually accept practicing homosexuals as church members. That would lead almost automatically to having pastors who are practicing homosexuality.

I find it impossible to believe that SDAs who are really thinking about the teachings of the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy, think this is what God wants to see happen in His church.

[John317]

There are two groups. One group justifies the behavior and the other doesn't. The first group should not desire membership with a church that disagrees with them on a very important part of their lives. The second group (those that do not justify it) are normally accepted into membership.

Exactly, Shane. That is the point I am making also. I can't see anyone can mistake it.

[John317]

Actually you [shane, ed.] quoted part of my post when this started but got on another railroad track with it. In the second post you left the state entirely. Now you are talking to yourself 'cause you left me behind on that other track, in that other state. lol

You posted earlier:

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

As far as I can see the other side hasn't really shown what God's love would look like in relating to PHs in that situation.

What would you do if you were a leader-- or perhaps only a regular member-- in your local church and you knew that one of the members was a practicing homosexual?

Let's say that one of the members was known to go to a gay bar and go home with men. Or maybe he is living with another man as his lover. Or maybe he has been seen going to men's bathrooms for the purpose of meeting men. (I don't mean that we should presume the "PH" is a male; it could almost just as easily be a female.)

These are very real situations.

What do you believe God would have you do?

[BobRyan]

I find that quite true in another area God frowns on. Perhaps it is in the way we present it. I mean, perhaps they are seeing us as unloving.

[John317]

Instead of arguments from the Scriptures, the opponents of the Advent faith chose to employ ridicule and scoffing. The careless and ungodly, emboldened by the position of religious teachers, resorted to opprobrious epithets, to base and blasphemous witticisms, in their efforts to heap contumely upon Wm. Miller and his work. The gray-headed man who had left a comfortable home to travel at his own expense from city to city, from town to village, toiling unceasingly to bear to the world the solemn warning of the Judgment near, was sneeringly denounced as a fanatic, a liar, a speculating knave. {4SP 218.1}

Time, means, and talents were employed in misrepresenting and maligning Adventists, in exciting prejudice against them, and holding them up to public contempt. Ministers occupied themselves in gathering up damaging reports, absurd and malicious fabrications, and dealing them out from the pulpit. Earnest were the efforts put forth to draw away the minds of the people from the subject of the second advent. But in seeking to crush out Adventism, the popular ministry undermined faith in the word of God. It was made to appear a sin, something of which men should be ashamed, to study the prophecies which relate to the coming of Christ and the end of the world. This teaching made men infidels, and many took license to walk after their own ungodly lusts. Then the authors of the evil charged it all upon Adventists. {4SP 218.2}

The Wesleys encountered similar accusations from the ease-loving, godless ministers who were constantly intercepting their labors, and seeking to destroy their influence. They were pronounced uncharitable, and accused of pride and vanity, because they did not pay homage to the popular teachers of their time. They were accused of skepticism, of disorderly practices, and of contempt of authority. John Wesley fearlessly threw back these charges upon those who framed them, showing that they themselves were responsible for the very evils of which they accused the Methodists. In a similar manner may the charges against Adventism be refuted. {4SP 219.1}

The great controversy between truth and error has been carried forward from century to century since the fall of man. God and angels, and those united with them, have been inviting, urging men to repentance and holiness and Heaven; while Satan and his angels, and men inspired by them, have been opposing every effort to benefit and save the fallen race. Wm. Miller was disturbing Satan's kingdom, and the arch-enemy sought not only to counteract the effect of the message, but to destroy the messenger himself. As Father Miller made a practical application of Scripture truth to the hearts of his hearers, the rage of professed Christians was kindled against him, even as the anger of the Jews was excited against Christ and his apostles. Church-members stirred up the baser classes, and upon several occasions enemies plotted to take his life as he should leave the place of meeting. But holy angels were in the throng, and one of these, in the form of a man, took the arm of this servant of the Lord, and led him in safety from the angry mob. His work was not yet done

Very significant quotes worthy of being posted over again. WE need to get these kinds of things burned into our consciousness so that they become a part of us and we can't forget them.

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Why does someone always regurgitate that old red herring of an argument? The connection is a figment of fevered imaginations... It is the Adventist forum WO version of Godwin's law...

We have been round this barn before...

I have never heard someone try to connect women's ordination to gay clergy before. Where have I been?

I do support women's ordination but do not support gay clergy (at least if they are practicing homosexuality).

It is indeed a regularly reoccurring argument that is thrown up (pun intended) against the wall by those opposed to WO. It usually occurs when all other arguments begin to run out of steam. It has the desired effect of translating the homophobia of some uncertain about WO into a solid fear of and thus opposition to WO. Logic and reason get set aside when the emotion of fear takes over.

[teresaq]

Kind of reminds me of when JWs claimed persecution when it was all due to their tactics. They were going around denouncing, ridiculing and criticizing everyone who did not believe as they did. But that may be before your time when that was going on.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

I find that quite true in another area God frowns on. Perhaps it is in the way we present it. I mean, perhaps they are seeing us as unloving.

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

... But some people believe that it is unkind or unloving to say that prostitution and homosexuality are not right for christians.

Ellen White states that she and anyone else who dared to stand firm on any point of Bible truth that might be considered unpopular - would be called unloving.

That is something to think about.

[teresaq]

And the cure, as I read it?

1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

...It usually occurs when all other arguments begin to run out of steam. It has the desired effect of translating the homophobia of some uncertain about WO into a solid fear of and thus opposition to WO. Logic and reason get set aside when the emotion of fear takes over.