SDA Pastor Openly Supports Homosexual Relationships

[teresaq]

What is really important is who God applies these statements to, not if we believe ourselves to be "persecuted", like the JWs were claiming when their behavior, not beliefs, was the cause of people being repelled. In short, they were the ones doing the persecuting.

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Instead of arguments from the Scriptures, the opponents of the Advent faith chose to employ ridicule and scoffing. The careless and ungodly, emboldened by the position of religious teachers, resorted to opprobrious epithets, to base and blasphemous witticisms, in their efforts to heap contumely upon Wm. Miller and his work. The gray-headed man who had left a comfortable home to travel at his own expense from city to city, from town to village, toiling unceasingly to bear to the world the solemn warning of the Judgment near, was sneeringly denounced as a fanatic, a liar, a speculating knave. {4SP 218.1}

Time, means, and talents were employed in misrepresenting and maligning Adventists, in exciting prejudice against them, and holding them up to public contempt. Ministers occupied themselves in gathering up damaging reports, absurd and malicious fabrications, and dealing them out from the pulpit. Earnest were the efforts put forth to draw away the minds of the people from the subject of the second advent. But in seeking to crush out Adventism, the popular ministry undermined faith in the word of God. It was made to appear a sin, something of which men should be ashamed, to study the prophecies which relate to the coming of Christ and the end of the world. This teaching made men infidels, and many took license to walk after their own ungodly lusts. Then the authors of the evil charged it all upon Adventists. {4SP 218.2}

The Wesleys encountered similar accusations from the ease-loving, godless ministers who were constantly intercepting their labors, and seeking to destroy their influence. They were pronounced uncharitable, and accused of pride and vanity, because they did not pay homage to the popular teachers of their time. They were accused of skepticism, of disorderly practices, and of contempt of authority. John Wesley fearlessly threw back these charges upon those who framed them, showing that they themselves were responsible for the very evils of which they accused the Methodists. In a similar manner may the charges against Adventism be refuted. {4SP 219.1}

The great controversy between truth and error has been carried forward from century to century since the fall of man. God and angels, and those united with them, have been inviting, urging men to repentance and holiness and Heaven; while Satan and his angels, and men inspired by them, have been opposing every effort to benefit and save the fallen race. Wm. Miller was disturbing Satan's kingdom, and the arch-enemy sought not only to counteract the effect of the message, but to destroy the messenger himself. As Father Miller made a practical application of Scripture truth to the hearts of his hearers, the rage of professed Christians was kindled against him, even as the anger of the Jews was excited against Christ and his apostles. Church-members stirred up the baser classes, and upon several occasions enemies plotted to take his life as he should leave the place of meeting. But holy angels were in the throng, and one of these, in the form of a man, took the arm of this servant of the Lord, and led him in safety from the angry mob. His work was not yet done

Very significant quotes worthy of being posted over again. WE need to get these kinds of things burned into our consciousness so that they become a part of us and we can't forget them.

[John317]

It is indeed a regularly reoccurring argument that is thrown up (pun intended) against the wall by those opposed to WO. It usually occurs when all other arguments begin to run out of steam. It has the desired effect of translating the homophobia of some uncertain about WO into a solid fear of and thus opposition to WO. Logic and reason get set aside when the emotion of fear takes over.

It has nothing whatever to do with emotion of fear, Tom. That doesn't even make sense.

It has to do with human nature and what can be observed.

Show from evidence and reason that the following logic is wrong:

What I'm observing is that just as people concede that the Bible doesn't give much support for Women's Ordination, and therefore find their support for it in the blessings of God that they believe they see among women who are pastors--- so the people who concede that the Bible doesn't support the practice of homosexuality, find support for their position in the blessings of God that they believe they see among gays who practice homosexuality within the church.

I said about two years ago that we would see this kind of thing happening, and the letter by the SDA pastor who says these very things is confirmation that this is beginning to happen. It was the argument made by people in other churches who eventually went on to accept practicing homosexuals in their ministry.

[John317]

What is really important is who God applies these statements to, not if we believe ourselves to be "persecuted", like the JWs were claiming when their behavior, not beliefs, was the cause of people being repelled. In short, they were the ones doing the persecuting.

If you go back and read what was written, you will see that no one is claiming they feel persecuted. What is being said is that when people have no arguments or evidence, they resort to ridicule, scoffing, and the claim of a "lack of love."

You have no reason or evidence to think that I lack love. The only reason this is brought up is that I am saying we need to obey God and do what the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy teach.

Quote:

I saw that the messengers and the church must have compassion with some, making a difference. Now the messengers of God must seek wisdom and know how to treat each individual case. Not all must be treated alike. By close examination it will be seen that individual cases differ. Some are to be borne with longer than others, but if one is living in disobedience to the commandments of God, the church must act and must separate them from them. And for other sins it will often be necessary to disfellowship souls if they continue in their sins; yet great care should be used and great patience and forbearance exercised. {9MR 196.4}

There is no lack of love in 1 Cor. 6: 9-11; Lev. 18: 22; 1 Tim. 1: 8-10; 2 Peter 2: 6-8; and Rev. 22: 14-15.

Do you believe the same as the SDA pastor about whom we are having this discussion?

[teresaq]

Ahhh, as the light dawns. Now the real reason for the miscommunication comes to light.

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

What is really important is who God applies these statements to, not if we believe ourselves to be "persecuted", like the JWs were claiming when their behavior, not beliefs, was the cause of people being repelled. In short, they were the ones doing the persecuting.

You have no reason or evidence to think that I lack love.

[John317]

Ahhh, as the light dawns. Now the real reason for the miscommunication comes to light.

Where's the lack of love?

Do you believe the same as the SDA pastor who supports homosexual relationships?

[Tom Wetmore]

Ah, but it does involve fear. You may not see it. But it is there. (I might suggest that those struggling with homosexuality harbor a homophobia of sorts, a fear that they will not successfully avoid a relapse, a fear of their own homosexual urges overpowering them, until the Lord returns and makes them new again. All of us who have besetting sins face this sort of fear to one degree or another. The alcoholic fears the day he may succumb and not be able to crawl back out of the gutter.) But the latent homophobia picks up the false association and brains shut down with a knee-jerk reaction that WO somehow leads directly to gay pride parades in the church.

Fear does that sort of thing. Fear is a powerful and odd emotion, seldom understood, and often confused with something else entirely.

As I have pointed out before the cognitive shut down that happens causes some, just as you have just posted, to totally ignore, or at the very least gloss over, the fundamental difference. One is a moral issue, the other is not. The vast majority of Adventists would see homosexual behavior as a moral question. Very few see WO as a moral issue. And those that do are often consumed with worrying about all manner of pseudo-moral dilemmas, like is it a sin to eat cheese. There is a lack of discernment to tell the difference. And fear is often at its root.

[John317]

Ah, but it does involve fear. You may not see it. But it is there. (I might suggest that those struggling with homosexuality harbor a homophobia of sorts, a fear that they will not successfully avoid a relapse, a fear of their own homosexual urges overpowering them, until the Lord returns and makes them new again.

I have no fear of gays. I prefer being with gays to being with "straights," Tom.

I would go to places like gay bars, etc., where I could be with gays except that I know God doesn't want me there. That would be kind of like putting candy near a baby and expecting him not to taste it. It would be foolish. It would be like an alcholic going to a bar just to be around his drinking buddies and the smell of alcohol.

I haven't the least phobia about gays. That wouldn't even make sense. That would mean I would have a phobia about myself, which would be the same thing as "self-hate," which I definitely don't have.

Look at these pictures and tell me if they look like they are of someone who hates himself and is afraid of his "homosexuality":

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/galleries/399465/Me_At_Moro_Bay_CA.html#comments

Also:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/165910.html

You might check out all the pictures I have online becasue they will give you a very good idea of who I am and what I am all about. They go back all the way to my childhood and include photographs I have taken of everything and everyone that have touched my life.

The truth is that you are saying these things about someone you obviously don't even know. You're also using stereotypical thinking, nothing that is based on your personal experience.

I also have no fear of my own homosexual "urges." I have lived with them all my life.

Actually, those urges are not the same as they were a few years ago. My "homosexual urges" now take forms that are not sinful. I rarely have desires to have sex with men, and when I do, I immediately reject them and give them over to God. But I don't fear them in the least, nor do I deny them. I don't attempt to suppress them, either.

The truth is that I am so immersed all the time in Bible study and prayer, etc., that I hardly ever even think of those things, unless I'm discussing it like I am now on the Forum.

But I'm still "gay," Tom. The only difference now is that I don't practice and I'm no longer obsessed with sex and men. Being "gay" has to do with a lot more than who one has sex with.

I actually have gender identity disorder,though, which not really the same thing as being "gay." But these things are not something I deny to myself. I am fully aware of it (GID) almost all the time.

I discuss it here, and the pictures show me as I was in 2004-5.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...s.html#comments

[Dr. Shane]

The alcoholic fears the day he may succumb and not be able to crawl back out of the gutter.

There is such a thing as healthy fear. We turn on our headlights when we drive at night because of fear. That is a healthy fear.

Most of our issues with fear are not healthy. I am an alcoholic and I have absolutely no fear that I may succumb. The reason I have no fear is because I have discovered a program of recovery that liberates me from the bondage of drink. That said, I now struggle with other sins. Each of us have sins we struggle with. Once we overcome one besetting sin, we discover another we have. Thus life is a journey of overcoming one sin after another.

Perfect love casts out all fear because perfect love is from Christ. Paul says that there is no condemnation for those that are in Christ - thus there is no reason to fear. Christ says not to fear men - who can only destroy the body - but to fear God who can destroy both body and soul in hell. Yet... if we are in Christ there is no condemnation and thus no reason to fear.

What do I have to fear? That I will lose my job? That I will lose my house? That my wife will leave me? That my kids will hate me? If I am in Christ there is no condemnation and I have no reason to fear. No reason to fear when I look at things in an eternal perspective. Sure I may lose my house or wife in this life, but in the big picture... that is not worth worrying about.

Knowing that, I have to ask myself "why do I still worry about temporal things of this world?" Answer: because I am a sinner and don't see the eternal perspective as clearly as Christ does. So how do I deal with this fear that I *feel*? Answer: I don't make decisions based on fear. I honestly confide in others about my fears and my decisions. In the multitude of counselors there is safety. So while I do still feel fear, I do not let it control my life.

[John317]

... One is a moral issue, the other is not. The vast majority of Adventists would see homosexual behavior as a moral question. Very few see WO as a moral issue. And those that do are often consumed with worrying about all manner of pseudo-moral dilemmas, like is it a sin to eat cheese. There is a lack of discernment to tell the difference. And fear is often at its root.

I never said I see WO as a moral issue. It is a doctrinal issue. If we say it is a moral issue, that would only be the case in the general sense of "right" and wrong" in terms of what the church should decide.

Homosexual practices in the church are both a moral AND a doctrinal issue.

The only connect I see between these issues-- as I said before-- is that they are often defended on the same grounds: not Bible grounds but because of a perception that God is blessing them.

[John317]

I'd say you are at best an amateur psychoanalyst. I won't say what you are at worst. Let's just say you don't sound even qualified to run a group therapy session for gays. Or alcoholics, for that matter. lol

Best stick to your work as an attorney. I bet Shane would agree. :-)

[teresaq]

I think "live" posts tell much more about a person than "dead" pictures. My client has pictures of a "happy" family all over the place. The children, now grandparents, of my client tell the story of a controlling, dictatorial, angry father and alcoholic mother.

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Ah, but it does involve fear. You may not see it. But it is there. (I might suggest that those struggling with homosexuality harbor a homophobia of sorts, a fear that they will not successfully avoid a relapse, a fear of their own homosexual urges overpowering them, until the Lord returns and makes them new again.

I have no fear of gays. I prefer being with gays to being with "straights," Tom.

I would go to places like gay bars, etc., where I could be with gays except that I know God doesn't want me there. That would be kind of like putting candy near a baby and expecting him not to taste it. It would be foolish. It would be like an alcholic going to a bar just to be around his drinking buddies and the smell of alcohol.

I haven't the least phobia about gays. That wouldn't even make sense. That would mean I would have a phobia about myself, which would be the same thing as "self-hate," which I definitely don't have.

Look at these pictures and tell me if they look like they are of someone who hates himself and is afraid of his "homosexuality":

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/galleries/399465/Me_At_Moro_Bay_CA.html#comments

Also:

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/165910.html

You might check out all the pictures I have online becasue they will give you a very good idea of who I am and what I am all about. They go back all the way to my childhood and include photographs I have taken of everything and everyone that has touched my life.

You are saying these things about someone you don't even know. You're using stereotypical thinking, nothing that is based on your personal experience.

I also have no fear of my own homosexual "urges." I have lived with them all my life.

Actually, those urges are not the same as they were a few years ago. My "homosexual urges" now take forms that are not sinful. I rarely have desires to have sex with men, and when I do, I immediately reject them and give them over to God. But I don't fear them in the least, nor do I deny them. I don't attempt to suppress them, either.

The truth is that I am so immersed all the time in Bible study and prayer, etc., that I hardly ever even think of those things, unless I'm discussing it like I am now on the Forum.

But I'm still "gay," Tom. The only difference now is that I don't practice and I'm no longer obsessed with sex and men. Being "gay" has to do with a lot more than who one has sex with.

I actually have gender identity disorder,though, which not really the same thing as being "gay." But these things are not something I deny to myself. I am fully aware of it (GID) almost all the time.

I discuss it here, and the pictures show me as I was in 2004-5.

http://clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthread...s.html#comments

[teresaq]

I think you are right, Tom. I have often wondered about those who attack gays. I wonder if they have "desires", hence attack the "temptation".

On another note, fear can be buried so deep down one doesn't realize one has it. It is usually expressed in other ways.

Ah, but it does involve fear. You may not see it. But it is there. (I might suggest that those struggling with homosexuality harbor a homophobia of sorts, a fear that they will not successfully avoid a relapse, a fear of their own homosexual urges overpowering them, until the Lord returns and makes them new again. All of us who have besetting sins face this sort of fear to one degree or another. The alcoholic fears the day he may succumb and not be able to crawl back out of the gutter.) But the latent homophobia picks up the false association and brains shut down with a knee-jerk reaction that WO somehow leads directly to gay pride parades in the church.

Fear does that sort of thing. Fear is a powerful and odd emotion, seldom understood, and often confused with something else entirely.

As I have pointed out before the cognitive shut down that happens causes some, just as you have just posted, to totally ignore, or at the very least gloss over, the fundamental difference. One is a moral issue, the other is not. The vast majority of Adventists would see homosexual behavior as a moral question. Very few see WO as a moral issue. And those that do are often consumed with worrying about all manner of pseudo-moral dilemmas, like is it a sin to eat cheese. There is a lack of discernment to tell the difference. And fear is often at its root.

[Tom Wetmore]

I'll just have to defer to your vastly superior expertise in all these matters.

[BobRyan]

Instead of arguments from the Scriptures, the opponents of the Advent faith chose to employ ridicule and scoffing. The careless and ungodly, emboldened by the position of religious teachers, resorted to opprobrious epithets, to base and blasphemous witticisms, in their efforts to heap contumely upon Wm. Miller and his work. The gray-headed man who had left a comfortable home to travel at his own expense from city to city, from town to village, toiling unceasingly to bear to the world the solemn warning of the Judgment near, was sneeringly denounced as a fanatic, a liar, a speculating knave. {4SP 218.1}

Time, means, and talents were employed in misrepresenting and maligning Adventists, in exciting prejudice against them, and holding them up to public contempt. Ministers occupied themselves in gathering up damaging reports, absurd and malicious fabrications, and dealing them out from the pulpit. Earnest were the efforts put forth to draw away the minds of the people from the subject of the second advent. But in seeking to crush out Adventism, the popular ministry undermined faith in the word of God. It was made to appear a sin, something of which men should be ashamed, to study the prophecies which relate to the coming of Christ and the end of the world. This teaching made men infidels, and many took license to walk after their own ungodly lusts. Then the authors of the evil charged it all upon Adventists. {4SP 218.2}

The Wesleys encountered similar accusations from the ease-loving, godless ministers who were constantly intercepting their labors, and seeking to destroy their influence. They were pronounced uncharitable, and accused of pride and vanity, because they did not pay homage to the popular teachers of their time. They were accused of skepticism, of disorderly practices, and of contempt of authority. John Wesley fearlessly threw back these charges upon those who framed them, showing that they themselves were responsible for the very evils of which they accused the Methodists. In a similar manner may the charges against Adventism be refuted. {4SP 219.1}

The great controversy between truth and error has been carried forward from century to century since the fall of man. God and angels, and those united with them, have been inviting, urging men to repentance and holiness and Heaven; while Satan and his angels, and men inspired by them, have been opposing every effort to benefit and save the fallen race. Wm. Miller was disturbing Satan's kingdom, and the arch-enemy sought not only to counteract the effect of the message, but to destroy the messenger himself. As Father Miller made a practical application of Scripture truth to the hearts of his hearers, the rage of professed Christians was kindled against him, even as the anger of the Jews was excited against Christ and his apostles. Church-members stirred up the baser classes, and upon several occasions enemies plotted to take his life as he should leave the place of meeting. But holy angels were in the throng, and one of these, in the form of a man, took the arm of this servant of the Lord, and led him in safety from the angry mob. His work was not yet done

[BobRyan]

Ah, but it does involve fear. You may not see it. But it is there. (I might suggest that those struggling with homosexuality harbor a homophobia of sorts,

That myopic view of this topic completely ignores the world of reality.

The wild notion that condemning sin is really just "struggling to accept it" or "struggling with it" as if we are supposed to stop condemning sin and need to struggle to stop doing that... completely misses the world of reality.

There is something called the "Pacific Garden Mission" that illustrates the point. There the door is open to alcoholics and drug addicts - a free meal and a place to sleep. The price is that they have to listen to a Bible teaching. These people speak about alcoholism all the time. They are continually talking about the damage it does and are continually showing examples of lives that have been changed - people freed from those sinful life styles by the power of the Bible.

While some may "spin that" as "struggling with alcoholism - alcophobia" -- such nonsense would totally miss the reality of the world around us. What is working in real life - and what does not.

But I understand that spinning it all as "alco-phobia" is probably more politically correct in certain liberal circles. Yet is stops short of reality.

in Christ,

Bob

[teresaq]

I can't help but find it quite hilarious when you make these kinds of statements. I am quite sure not a few of us are waiting for the day you actually become one. lol

on another note, it sounds to me like you are judging hearts and motives in not a few of your posts.

I find the reactions to that post very instructive for the unbiased objective readers.

...

Bob

[John317]

I think "live" posts tell much more about a person than "dead" pictures. My client has pictures of a "happy" family all over the place. The children, now grandparents, of my client tell the story of a controlling, dictatorial, angry father and alcoholic mother

But what about my "live" posts? What do they tell you?

My parents were great Christians who loved Jesus with all their heart.

My mom was a teacher most of her life dedicated to the SDA educational system and to the children she taught between 1933 to 1974. And my father was also a great dad and a teacher-principle-pastor between 1935 to 1993. He authored a well-known, popular biography of William Miller that was published by the Review and Herald. (My dad is in the SDA BC Encyclopedia because of his pioneering educational work.)

The Advent Movement was their passion and their life.

I have lots of pictures of him on the Forum as well as photos of my mom if you'd like to see them.

None of the things you spoke of there are true of either my family or of me.

[BobRyan]

I can't help but find it quite hilarious when you make these kinds of statements. I am quite sure not a few of us are waiting for the day you actually become one. lol

[teresaq]

Uh, no it wasn't, but feel free to continue lying. As previously noted by another,

Quote:

"If your sense of personal Christianity is to twist other people's points to gain an upperhand in any ideological dialogue, then the Christ you worship isn't the Christ that I want to worship."

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

I can't help but find it quite hilarious when you make these kinds of statements. I am quite sure not a few of us are waiting for the day you actually become one. lol

By their fruits you shall know them... Matt 7

The above post was in response to this one...

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

...{4SP 218.1}

... {4SP 218.2}

... {4SP 219.1}

...

I find the reactions to that post very instructive for the unbiased objective readers.

in -----,

Bob

[teresaq]

Have you noticed how you take a general statement/observation and make it look as if it had read "you"? Its the second time with my posts on this thread. Is that how you read comments, as if they were talking about you specifically and not in general?

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

I think "live" posts tell much more about a person than "dead" pictures. My client has pictures of a "happy" family all over the place. The children, now grandparents, of my client tell the story of a controlling, dictatorial, angry father and alcoholic mother.

But what about my "live" posts? ...

[BobRyan]

First Teeresa quotes my post and says she is responding to it...

I can't help but find it quite hilarious when you make these kinds of statements. I am quite sure not a few of us are waiting for the day you actually become one. lol

on another note, it sounds to me like you are judging hearts and motives in not a few of your posts.

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

I find the reactions to that post very instructive for the unbiased objective readers.

[BobRyan]

Back to the actual topic --

Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore

Ah, but it does involve fear. You may not see it. But it is there. (I might suggest that those struggling with homosexuality harbor a homophobia of sorts,

That myopic view of this topic completely ignores the world of reality.

The wild notion that condemning sin is really just "struggling to accept it" or "struggling with it" as if we are supposed to stop condemning sin and need to struggle to stop doing that... completely misses the world of reality.

There is something called the "Pacific Garden Mission" that illustrates the point. There the door is open to alcoholics and drug addicts - a free meal and a place to sleep. The price is that they have to listen to a Bible teaching. These people speak about alcoholism all the time. They are continually talking about the damage it does and are continually showing examples of lives that have been changed - people freed from those sinful life styles by the power of the Bible.

While some may "spin that" as "struggling with alcoholism - alcophobia" -- such nonsense would totally miss the reality of the world around us. What is working in real life - and what does not.

But I understand that spinning it all as "alco-phobia" is probably more politically correct in certain liberal circles. Yet is stops short of reality.

[John317]

I don't believe it is our duty to decide that a homosexual person would be "happier" alone than with a partner. I don't think God wants us making decisions for anybody else.

I'm not deciding whether someone would be happier alone or with a partner. All I am saying is that if a person decides they want to practice homosexuality, they should not be a member of the church.

In my view, that is not talking for God; it is merely following the Bible's teachings.

Originally Posted By: Jeannieb43

.... for us not to allow church *membership* to someone just because he's gay, is I believe an abominable abuse of power.

I would never argue that a person not be allowed church membership just because he's gay. I'm gay myself and a member of the church.

The only question is whether practicing gays should be church members. A practicing gay is someone who is not repentent for homosexual practices and intends to continue practicing.

It is contrary to 1 Cor. 6: 9-11; 1 Tim 1: 8-11; 2 Peter 2: 6-8; and Numbers 18: 22.

Do you agree with Pastor Leonard's arguments and conclusion that practicing gays should be allowed church membership?

[teresaq]

Now you have it accurate as to what specifically I was responding to. Thank you. Much appreciated.

First Teeresa quotes my post and says she is responding to it...

Originally Posted By: teresaq(sda)

I can't help but find it quite hilarious when you make these kinds of statements. I am quite sure not a few of us are waiting for the day you actually become one. lol

on another note, it sounds to me like you are judging hearts and motives in not a few of your posts.

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

I find the reactions to that post very instructive for the unbiased objective readers.

[Fausto]

I would never argue that a person not be allowed church membership just because he's gay. I'm gay myself and a member of the church.

The only question is whether practicing gays should be church members. A practicing gay is someone who is not repentent for homosexual practices and intends to continue practicing.

I admire your courage, after all you did not have to tell anyone, but it shows you have conquered it in the name of Jesus!

Amen...and of course I totally agree, condemn the sin, not the sinner, think of it this way, what if God condemn us all? Where would we be now?