Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom? A Question from a Heretical Bapt

[JawgeFromJawja]

Teresaq: "It's what we do".

Well, yes, the official church name says it all.

Let's start in Genesis.

[JawgeFromJawja]

I should like to delete that first post. It was accidently posted prematurely.

Teresaq: "It's what we do".

Well, yes, the official church name says it all.

Let's start in Genesis. (And for those of you who haven't read The Bible cover to cover yet, don't stop there. Keep on reading. Genesis is followed by Exodus, >>> Leviticus, >>> Numbers, >>>Deuteronomy, >>> Joshua, >>>Judges, Ruth >>>>>>>>>>> Revelation. The Bible can be covered without unreasonable strain or stress in three months. Nobody in any Western country is fully educated until reading the whole Bible. However, for me education is of secondary importance. The spiritual grounding provided by reading from Genesis through Revelation is of paramount importance.)

Before going to Genesis and the Sabbath, a word from the sponsor.

This is my belief, and the belief of innumerable other Christians: all of the first 10 chapters, and much of the 11th Chapter, of Genesis is allegorical, and without any historical accuracy. I can say that I truthfully know Adventists who hold the same view.

As for the Baptist Church, Biblical inerrancy is a heated controversy. A recent president of The Southern Baptist Convention (SBC) opined

"We believe that the translations of the Bible we have today contain God's holy and inspired message to us."

He really drew some flak. There is really no permanent official Baptist belief in Biblical inerrancy. Belief in the verbal, scientific, and historical inerrancy of The Bible is not a salvation requirement, - for the nonce. I think. Even now that may no longer be true. I have quit trying to keep up with Baptist wranglings. Ultimately, SBC official beliefs depend on which convention year is considered, which is both a weakness and a strength.

I suspect that most Baptist lay church members believe in absolute Biblical inerrancy. However, one thing complicating Baptist theology is a bulldog persistence in the belief of priesthood of the individual. Baptists are free to derive their own theology, with the defining limit of salvation depending on the atoning death of Jesus. Perhaps that is the reason that I haven’t been booted from the SBC rolls. Further, all churches of the SBC are independent of the convention. They don’t even have to send messengers to SB conventions. Baptists are contentious, hardheaded, hot headed, and opinionated. It would be almost impossible for a concerted statement such as The 28 Beliefs of Adventists to be adapted by the SBC.

My favorite Baptist hero is Roger Williams, founder of Rhode Island. It would be well worth while to look him up in Wikipedia if you are not familiar with the life of that courageous man. It is a miracle that the New England Puritans did not hang, burn or dunk him. And I don’t mean baptism. However, he did spend his share of time in prison, and he was frequently persecuted.

Now for a stinging barb: Sabbath keeping is not a requirement for salvation. Most of my Adventist family, friends and acquaintances accept that article of faith. Even so, there are opposing Adventists who almost stroke out when that point is debated. And none of the forum participants have yet convinced me of a Scripture mandate for gentiles keeping the Sabbath, let alone Sabbath keeping as a salvation requirement.

For now, try not to get too far afield on documentation for your points, except in Genesis. There will be opportunity for discussing other Scripture on the Sabbath further on.

Let me appeal to the authority of Jewish scholars on gentiles keeping the Sabbath. The great majority of Jewish scholars, but certainly not all of them, believe that the commandments required of Gentiles are the "Noachian Law", seven commandments that include respect for life (no killing), respect for property of others (no stealing), respect for marital commitments (no adultery), no incest, and respect for truth (honesty in commerce and relationships, and no lying). Keeping the Sabbath is not one of those Noachian Laws.

There is a Jewish scholarship site in Israel, Mechon Mamre. Do a Google on that site. It is a treasure trove of Jewish theology, and well worth your while. (Or worthwhile for no other reason but that you are a nerd like me.) I found it one night while surfing the WWW on "The Law of God". I first found the belief in Noachian Law for gentiles at the Mechon Mamre site.

Now for Genesis and the Sabbath my next post.

[BobRyan]

The Seventh-day Baptists are the ones first credited with giving the Bible doctrine on the importance of the Sabbath to the then Sunday-keeping Adventists.

D.L. Moody is a well known Baptist who affirms the bible truth that points back to Genesis 2 as the foundation and source of the Sabbath.

Ex 20:8-11 points BACK to Genesis 2 saying that the Gensis 2 fact ALONE makes Sabbath binding upon Man. Exodus 20 points back to Genesis as if it were historic FACT "FOR IN Six Days the Lord MADE... and rested on the 7th day". This is a statement in Legal Code! It is appealing to the historic fact and accuracy of the Word of God JUST where some folks might wish to say God is wrong to do so. I beg to differ.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

Is 66 tells us that the SABBATH is for "ALL MANKIND" and even states that for all of eternity ALL MANKIND will "come before God to Worship" from "Sabbath to Sabbath".

The objective unbiased readers are going to sit up and take note of these simple obvious Bible facts.

It is "what they do".

in Christ,

Bob

[JawgeFromJawja]

The Seventh-day Baptists are the ones first credited with giving the Bible doctrine on the importance of the Sabbath to the then Sunday-keeping Adventists.

Bob, I think it makes for more efficient reading of my responses to embed them in color within your posts. If you object, that approach will stop in your posts.

Noachian Law was a well-established Jewish tradition by the time of Jesus. The Noachian Law is binding on all mankind except the Jews, and does not include keeping the Sabbath.

D.L. Moody is a well known Baptist who affirms the bible truth that points back to Genesis 2 as the foundation and source of the Sabbath.

Ex 20:8-11 points BACK to Genesis 2 saying that the Gensis 2 fact ALONE makes Sabbath binding upon Man. Exodus 20 points back to Genesis as if it were historic FACT "FOR IN Six Days the Lord MADE... and rested on the 7th day". This is a statement in Legal Code! It is appealing to the historic fact and accuracy of the Word of God JUST where some folks might wish to say God is wrong to do so. I beg to differ.

What verse in Genesis 2 makes the Sabbath binding on all mankind?

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

The rest of the Decalogue follows.

Exodus 20: 1 and 2 make it clear that God is addressing Israel, is giving the Decalogue to Israel.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

Can you honestly see a mandate in Mark 2: 27 for gentiles keeping the Sabbath? If anything, "not mankind made for the Sabbath" says that mankind was not made to be a servant to the Fourth Commandment.

Is 66 tells us that the SABBATH is for "ALL MANKIND" and even states that for all of eternity ALL MANKIND will "come before God to Worship" from "Sabbath to Sabbath".

Even so, there is no mandate for gentiles to keep the Sabbath in Isaiah 66. The phrase "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means daily worship of God. In ordering daily worship of God, what other day the week would you have expected Jewish Scripture to use?Which is not to detract from the importance of Sabbath for Jews.

The objective unbiased readers are going to sit up and take note of these simple obvious Bible facts.

Yes, I hope they will take note of these simple obvious Bible facts, which I feel that Adventists far over read. Please do not take offence to that. I think that each and every Christian institution and individual over reads scripture in such a way as to underscore their particular doctrines.

By the way, there are no "objective unbiased readers" when it comes to Bible reading and interpretation. Not me, not you, and not anyone who approaches The Bible with an established doctrine.

All I ask, to the point of being tedious, of any reader of The Bible to do is to read, actually read, The Bible - cover to cover while praying for guidance of The Holy Spirit.

It is "what they do".

in Christ,

Bob

In friendship, and prayerfully asking THE TRUTH for all of us.

[Gerr]

Yes, Bro. Jawge, I have and do read the Bible prayerfully, and have come to the conclusion that the 4th commandment was meant for me also, not just the other 9. It is written:

ESV | ‎Ex 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

NIV84 | ‎Le 24:22 You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.’ ”

ESV | ‎Nu 15:16 One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

ESV | ‎Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

ESV | ‎Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If the 4th was only meant for the Jews, then so is the New Covenant and all the blessings that go with it. But as Paul said:

ESV | ‎Ro 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. ‎29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

ESV | ‎Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

If we are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus, then there CANNOT be but ONE LAW for ALL.

[phkrause]

The Sabbath was not mandated for anyone, it was given as a to Adam and Eve who were to pass it on to each generation. If man had not sinned, all would be worshiping with God every Sabbath. Have you George ever wondered what God's purpose was for Israel? It was to be an example to all the other nations! Was it not? To show them how to live and worship the true God not a god made out of wood, stone, etc. It was not only for the Hebrew Nation, the Sabbath was for all, and so were the 10 Commandments.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Yes, Bro. Jawge, I have and do read the Bible prayerfully, and have come to the conclusion that the 4th commandment was meant for me also, not just the other 9. It is written:

ESV | ‎Ex 12:49 There shall be one law for the native and for the stranger who sojourns among you.”

NIV84 | ‎Le 24:22 You are to have the same law for the alien and the native-born. I am the LORD your God.’ ”

ESV | ‎Nu 15:16 One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

ESV | ‎Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

ESV | ‎Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

If the 4th was only meant for the Jews, then so is the New Covenant and all the blessings that go with it. But as Paul said:

ESV | ‎Ro 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. ‎29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

ESV | ‎Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

If we are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus, then there CANNOT be but ONE LAW for ALL.

That's just fine for the aliens dwelling with the Jews, just as it reads. There is still no mandate for all mankind to keep the Sabbath. It just is not there. If you think so, please show me the specific verse. But salvation in Christ is verified in many passages in The Bible. I shall cite just one:

Luk 2:4 And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judaea, unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem; (because he was of the house and lineage of David:)

Luk 2:5 To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.

Luk 2:6 And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.

Luk 2:7 And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

Luk 2:8 And there were in the same country shepherds abiding in the field, keeping watch over their flock by night.

Luk 2:9 And, lo, the angel of the Lord came upon them, and the glory of the Lord shone round about them: and they were sore afraid.

Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

You will not find such an inclusive statement mandating all people to keep the Sabbath. Just the Children of Israel and those dwelling with them.

Agape

[JawgeFromJawja]

The Sabbath was not mandated for anyone, it was given as a to Adam and Eve who were to pass it on to each generation. If man had not sinned, all would be worshiping with God every Sabbath. Have you George ever wondered what God's purpose was for Israel? It was to be an example to all the other nations! Was it not? To show them how to live and worship the true God not a god made out of wood, stone, etc. It was not only for the Hebrew Nation, the Sabbath was for all, and so were the 10 Commandments.

Pkrause, there is no Scriptural mandate that all people keep the Sabbath. Please show me the verse if you think so. Nobody has yet done so.

The Jews before Christ had a tradition of The Noachian Law. Those laws included no blasphemy, no worship of idols, no killing, no stealing, honesty, and sexual purity. The Noachian Law does not include keeping the Sabbath. Jewish tradition has it that Gentiles who keep the Noachian Law in good faith are righteous in the sight of God. God's purpose for Israel was to act as a nation of priests for God. When Israel taught the Noachian Law, they were doing just that.

Highest regards

[Gerr]

And WHERE does it say that it is ONLY for Jews?

[Gerr]

That's just fine for the aliens dwelling with the Jews, just as it reads. There is still no mandate for all mankind to keep the Sabbath.

ESV | Mk 2:27 And he said to them, “The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

9.1 ἄνθρωποςa, ου m; ἀνήρb, ἀνδρός m: a human being (normally an adult)—(in the singular) ‘person, human being, individual,’ (in the plural) ‘people, persons, mankind.’

Louw, J. P., & Nida, E. A. (1996). Vol. 1: Greek-English lexicon of the New Testament : Based on semantic domains (electronic ed. of the 2nd edition.) (103). New York: United Bible societies.

Are you excluding yourself from the family of man, Jawge? Besides, I don't think you addressed these:

ESV | ‎Re 14:12 Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

ESV | ‎Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Nowhere is the New Covenant ever addressed directly to Gentiles. If the 4th was only meant for the Jews, then so is the New Covenant and all the blessings that go with it, and by your reasoning, Gentiles are excluded. But as Paul said:

ESV | ‎Ro 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. ‎29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

ESV | ‎Ga 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

If we are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus, then there CANNOT be but ONE LAW for ALL.

[StillGreen]

I am Abraham's seed according to the promise... Therefore...

[JawgeFromJawja]

And WHERE does it say that it is ONLY for Jews?

Lot of places:

Exo 19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

God did not bring any other large group out of Egypt!

Passages concerning Commandments 1 - 3 follow, then

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

So far, nothing about any other people keeping the Sabbath.

Exo 31:12 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Exo 31:13 Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.

Exo 31:14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.

Exo 31:15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.

Exo 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.

Exo 31:17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Especially note the underscored passages. God hallowed the Sabbath, and He hallowed, set aside, Israel, to be a special nation of priests to God, with the purpose of glorifying God throughout the nations:

Lev 11:45 For I am the LORD that bringeth you up out of the land of Egypt, to be your God: ye shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.

Lev 19:1 And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying,

Lev 19:2 Speak unto all the congregation of the children of Israel, and say unto them, Ye shall be holy: for I the LORD your God am holy.

Lev 19:3 Ye shall fear every man his mother, and his father, and keep my sabbaths: I am the LORD your God.

Deu 5:1 And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them.

Deu 5:2 The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.

Deu 5:3 The LORD made not this covenant with our fathers, but with us, even us, who are all of us here alive this day.

Deuteronomy 5 is largely a catalog of God's commandments and statutes for Israel. No other nation or group is specified.

Deu 5:12 Keep the sabbath day to sanctify it, as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.

Deu 5:13 Six days thou shalt labour, and do all thy work:

Deu 5:14 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, nor thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thine ox, nor thine ass, nor any of thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates;

On the other hand, there is no proscription for non-Jews to not keep the Sabbath. But in keeping the Sabbath, there is no dispensation to partially keep the Sabbath. Anyone keeping the Sabbath for religious reasons is obligated to keep it in accordance with The Torah, which is quite demanding, and demands the death penalty for those violating the Fourth Commandment. I wouldn't recommend stoning anybody for violating the Sabbath, not Adventists, not Jews, and not anybody else. It would get you talked about.

Agape and

[JawgeFromJawja]

I am Abraham's seed according to the promise... Therefore...

RussB, I am quite familiar with that doctrine. It has no Scriptural basis whatsoever. You are going to give me references from St. Paul's letters, which do not mandate Christians to keep commandments addressed to Jews. The point being made by Paul is that God writes holiness on the hearts of Christians, but not through any written law.

Highest regards, and God bless you,

bless you particularly for taking the

demanding pledge on yourself to keep the Sabbath.

[phkrause]

Pkrause, there is no Scriptural mandate that all people keep the Sabbath. Please show me the verse if you think so. Nobody has yet done so.

The Jews before Christ had a tradition of The Noachian Law. Those laws included no blasphemy, no worship of idols, no killing, no stealing, honesty, and sexual purity. The Noachian Law does not include keeping the Sabbath. Jewish tradition has it that Gentiles who keep the Noachian Law in good faith are righteous in the sight of God. God's purpose for Israel was to act as a nation of priests for God. When Israel taught the Noachian Law, they were doing just that.

Highest regards

Good Sabbath Jawge. Others have already given those verses, that mention "all mankind" so I'm not gonna give them again. The no worshiping idols, stealing, etc., are all in the 10 Commandments.

No the Jewish nation was to be an example as what we should do. As was Jesus, an example of what we should do.

So than why does it say in Rev 14 that his people at the end just before he comes, would be keeping his commandments? Are those just the Jews? He's talking about!! Than I would guess the rest of you will not be ready if he comes in our life time! Because you wont be keeping all of his commandments!

[Gerr]

Jawge:

God did not bring any other large group out of Egypt!

Gerry: Ah, but yes, Jawge, yes, He did! Egypt is a type of the house of bondage that everyone born into this world is called out and brought out from!

ESV | Ro 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

ESV | Ro 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

ESV | Ga 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

ESV | Is 56:6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant— 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”

ESV | Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

ESV | Nu 15:16 One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

[Gerr]

Jawge: Anyone keeping the Sabbath for religious reasons is obligated to keep it in accordance with The Torah, which is quite demanding, and demands the death penalty for those violating the Fourth Commandment. I wouldn't recommend stoning anybody for violating the Sabbath, not Adventists, not Jews, and not anybody else. It would get you talked about.

Gerry: Is it just violation of the 4th that demands the death penalty? ESV | Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

ESV | 1 Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

ESV | Jn 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

ESV | Ac 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Nothing here tells me except the 4th for Gentiles.

[Gerr]

That's just fine for the aliens dwelling with the Jews, just as it reads. There is still no mandate for all mankind to keep the Sabbath. It just is not there. If you think so, please show me the specific verse. But salvation in Christ is verified in many passages in The Bible. I shall cite just one:

Luk 2:10 And the angel said unto them, Fear not: for, behold, I bring you good tidings of great joy, which shall be to all people.

You will not find such an inclusive statement mandating all people to keep the Sabbath. Just the Children of Israel and those dwelling with them.

Agape

ESV | Ex 12:38 A mixed multitude also went up with them,

Do you think the Law that was given to Israel at Sinai applied also to the "mixed multitude"?

NIV84 | Ro 3:9 What shall we conclude then? Are we any better? Not at all! We have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under sin

ESV | Ro 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world

may be held accountable to God.

ESV | Ac 17:30 The times of ignorance God overlooked, but now he commands all people everywhere to repent

[Gerr]

In order to understand whether the Sabbath commandment applies to all or not, we need to understand its meaning and its purpose.

1. ESV | Ge 2:2 And on the seventh day God finished his work that he had done, and he rested on the seventh day from all his work that he had done. 3 So God blessed the seventh day and made it holy, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation.

ESV | Ex 20:8 “Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor, and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your male servant, or your female servant, or your livestock, or the sojourner who is within your gates. For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day. Therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

ESV | Eze 20:12 Moreover, I gave them my Sabbaths, as a sign between me and them, that they might know that I am the LORD who sanctifies them.

ESV | Le 19:30 You shall keep my Sabbaths and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

ESV | Re 14:6 Then I saw another angel flying directly overhead, with an eternal gospel to proclaim to those who dwell on earth, to every nation and tribe and language and people 7 And he said with a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come, and worship him who made heaven and earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

a) Memorial/reminder of God's creative activity. He said REMEMBER, because man is prone to forget. No other commandment did He say, REMEMBER.

God put a blessing on it.

c) Sanctified it, made it holy.

d) Man and even working animals need rest.

e) Sabbath observance is associated with worship.

f) A sanctuary in time when God meets with His people.

g) A constant reminder that God alone can make sinful man holy, that NEVER can man make himself holy.

Did God mean to deprive Gentiles of all these blessings?

[wayfinder]

God's kingdom is a kingdom of the heavens and not a kingdom of the world. The offer to enter the kingdom of God is open to everyone who is willing to agree to obey the covenant and to do so out of love for God and for His people. The covenant of the kingdom of God is the Ten Commandments and was kept in the Most Holy Place in the Tabernacle of the testimony(covenant). The fourth commandment is no more or no less important than the other nine, to break one is to break the covenant(all ten commands). God offers to all peoples the oppertunity to accept Him as their God and to love, worship, and serve Him.

Adam and Eve started their life in the garden of the paradise of God and were allowed to stay there as long as they obeyed. On the day of their disobedience they were expelled from the garden and lived "in the world". We have been given the oppertunity to enter the garden of the paradise of God on one condition, obedience to the commands of God. When we keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ we enter the kingdom of God and help others along their way to the kingdom.

Revelation 15:5 NIV

After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened.

The beings and articles of heaven are eternal. The beings and articles of earth are finite. The tabernacle on earth was but a shadow of the tabernacle in heaven. The covenant(ten commandments) are housed in the tabernacle in heaven and are thus eternal. This is why, at the triumph of the kingdom of God over the kingdom of the world, the ark of His covenant was shown to all beings on earth.

Revelation 11:19 NIV

Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder, an earthquake and a great hailstorm.

[BobRyan]

The Seventh-day Baptists are the ones first credited with giving the Bible doctrine on the importance of the Sabbath to the then Sunday-keeping Adventists.

I am fine with whatever method you prefer - but I tend to stick with the convention generally used on this board which places prior statements in quote boxes with names associated with each.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Noachian Law was a well-established Jewish tradition by the time of Jesus. The Noachian Law is binding on all mankind except the Jews, and does not include keeping the Sabbath.[/color']

Noachian law did not incude "Love God with all your heart" or "Love your neighbor as yourself" or "do not take the mame of God in vain" or "Honor your parents" or "do not covet" or "Do not commit adultery" -- IF we simply chop out the rest of the Bible and limit ourselves to the a few brief words in Genesis. That would be eisegesis - it would be bending the bible rather than accurately studying out Bible doctrine.

The broader more Bible-centered approach is to "notice" that Genesis, Exodus, Lev, Numbers, Deut are all written by Moses and all given to Israel. Thus the "reader" could see a reference to Noah in Genesis 6-9 and can also see the full content of "The Law of God" in Ex 20 as God Himself speaks it.

They can also see what the meaning is of "Clean and unclean animal" in Genesis 6 and 7 even though the definition does not appear until Lev 11.

They can see clearly the Genesis 2:1-3 statement that in Eden itself - God makes the Seventh-day a holy day for mankind.

They can see in Ex 20:8-11 that God affirms this very conclusion. That the Gen 2:1-3 facts "alone" establishe the Seventh-day Sabbath as binding on mankind.

Thus it is no wonder that the case made by Baptists such as D.L. Moody and then made even more so by the Seventh-day Baptists (as mentioned above - and as you are ignoring in this case) was so convincing to the Sunday-keeping Adventists. Thus we became "Seventh-day Adventists".

D.L. Moody is a well known Baptist who affirms the bible truth that points back to Genesis 2 as the foundation and source of the Sabbath.

Ex 20:8-11 points BACK to Genesis 2 saying that the Gensis 2 fact ALONE makes Sabbath binding upon Man. Exodus 20 points back to Genesis as if it were historic FACT "FOR IN Six Days the Lord MADE... and rested on the 7th day". This is a statement in Legal Code! It is appealing to the historic fact and accuracy of the Word of God JUST where some folks might wish to say God is wrong to do so. I beg to differ.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

What verse in Genesis 2 makes the Sabbath binding on all mankind?

Well "God answers" that question Himself in Ex 20:11 saying that it is the one that shows that God dis all His work in 6 days and rested the 7th day and blessed and made it a holy day.

Gen 2:1-3

1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed, and all their hosts.

2 By the seventh day God completed His work which He had done, and He rested on the seventh day from all His work which He had done.

3 Then God blessed the seventh day and sanctified it, because in it He rested from all His work which God had created and made.

11 "" For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath day and made it holy.

Do you think God got that wrong? Should God have said "you know - I did not do anything during creation week to make this a Holy day - but I will do so now. I now hereby declare that the 7th is made holy - err.. umm. because I say so and because that would make it just for you here at Sinai and no one else"???

Wouldn't that fit your view much better?

Is it not very obvious at this point that the Sunday-keeping Adventists basically had no other choice but to listen carefully to their Seventh-day Baptist friends and not turn away from the powerful Bible evidence in favor of God's creation memorial?

In friendship, and prayerfully asking THE TRUTH for all of us.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

BobRyan said:

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

Can you honestly see a mandate in Mark 2: 27 for gentiles keeping the Sabbath? If anything, "not mankind made for the Sabbath" says that mankind was not made to be a servant to the Fourth Commandment.

In Genesis 1 - 2 we have the "Making" of both the Sabbath and mankind.

In Mark 2:27 Christ speaks to the "Making" of both the Sabbath and Mankind.

In Ex 20:11 God refers back to the events whereby we have the "making of both the Sabbath and mankind".

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

You say "oh no it was not... it was only made for Jews and not FOR mankind".

in fact you are arguing that manking is blessed by ignoring God's sabbath memorial of Creation, and only having it apply to Jews.

Your argument is the opposite of what we find in Mark 2.

Is it any wonder that baptists like D.L. Moody and the Seventh-day Baptist pick up on this idea that the Sabbath is applicable to all mankind?

How then could the Sunday-Keeping Adventists possibly have been able to turn a blind eye to that Bible evidence? Clearly they could not.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Bob said:

Is 66 tells us that the SABBATH is for "ALL MANKIND" and even states that for all of eternity ALL MANKIND will "come before God to Worship" from "Sabbath to Sabbath".

Quote:

George said :

Even so, there is no mandate for gentiles to keep the Sabbath in Isaiah 66. The phrase "from Sabbath to Sabbath" means daily worship of God. In ordering daily worship of God, what other day the week would you have expected Jewish Scripture to use?Which is not to detract from the importance of Sabbath for Jews.

The text of Isaiah 66 does not say "daily shall all mankind come before Me to Worship".

The text says that "From Sabbath to Sabbath" shall "ALL MANKIND" come before Me to worhip.

That shoots the idea of "just the Jews shall worship from Sabbath to Sabbath" as well as the idea that this worship was a daily event.

Exegesis is everything. Isaiah is writing to readers who know very well that the phrase "from Sabbath to Sabbath" is not the OT way of saying "every day".

Thus it would have been impossible for the Sunday-keeping Adventists to turn a blind eye to this Bible argument in favor of honoring God's memorial of His creative work in Genesis 1 and 2.

The objective unbiased readers are going to sit up and take note of these simple obvious Bible facts.

Quote:

George said -

[color:#000099]Yes, I hope they will take note of these simple obvious Bible facts, which I feel that Adventists far over read.

Well you will have to make a case for what you suggest. Merely suggesting it does not provide the Bible support you need.

In any case the Sunday-keeping Adventists found no way to turn a blind eye to these bible texts on the subject of God's creation memorial and thus they chose to join the Seventh-day Baptists in honoring God's own Holy Day.

BTW - my ancestors are from Norway and in their language Saturady is "Lord's Day". So I wish you a blessed Lordag today.

in Christ,

Bob

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Pkrause, there is no Scriptural mandate that all people keep the Sabbath. Please show me the verse if you think so. Nobody has yet done so.

The Jews before Christ had a tradition of The Noachian Law. Those laws included no blasphemy, no worship of idols, no killing, no stealing, honesty, and sexual purity. The Noachian Law does not include keeping the Sabbath. Jewish tradition has it that Gentiles who keep the Noachian Law in good faith are righteous in the sight of God. God's purpose for Israel was to act as a nation of priests for God. When Israel taught the Noachian Law, they were doing just that.

Highest regards

Good Sabbath Jawge. Others have already given those verses, that mention "all mankind" so I'm not gonna give them again. The no worshiping idols, stealing, etc., are all in the 10 Commandments.

No the Jewish nation was to be an example as what we should do. As was Jesus, an example of what we should do.

So than why does it say in Rev 14 that his people at the end just before he comes, would be keeping his commandments? Are those just the Jews? He's talking about!! Than I would guess the rest of you will not be ready if he comes in our life time! Because you wont be keeping all of his commandments!

I have many rebuttals to this post, pkrause. Please do not take the rebuttal personally, for I respect you above many participants on the forum.

In essence, you are saying that only those following the Adventist doctrines have a chance for salvation when Jesus returns.

First, look at the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus, God, God the Holy Spirit, are all the same. Don't just pay lip service to the doctrine of the trinity. Either Jesus is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and God the Son, or He is not.

If you accept the doctrine of the Trinity, then as The Holy Spirit Jesus returned the second time on the Day of Pentecost as described in the New Testament. If you want to dance around that concept, then give up the doctrine of the Trinity.

Second, the Jewish people (nation, people, folk, or whatever - it is quite blurred)alone were given the burden or mandate to keep the Sabbath. That is so clear in the Torah. To deny that is to do quite a hoola hoop of a semantic dance.

Third, the Jews were, and are still to be, a nation, (nation?. Classifying Jews makes my head spin.) to spread the Good News of God's Love to the world. They were to spread the knowledge of God and the Glory of God. And they still are to spread that knowledge.

Fourth, the doctrine that mankind has a deadline in accepting God as Lord and Savior, negates the concept of unconditional Love. "Unconditional" becomes conditional on the time limits and other limits that may or may not, and were not, ever set. A quality is either unlimited or limited. Setting time limits limits love.

For this ole Georgia Bulldog, a relatively uneducated guy in matters theological, "unconditional" still means no limits. If "unconditional" includes limits of any kind, then by any rational definition, it just is not unconditional.

Agape

From a guy who believes God's love is just that --- unlimited.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Jawge: Anyone keeping the Sabbath for religious reasons is obligated to keep it in accordance with The Torah, which is quite demanding, and demands the death penalty for those violating the Fourth Commandment. I wouldn't recommend stoning anybody for violating the Sabbath, not Adventists, not Jews, and not anybody else. It would get you talked about.

Gerry: Is it just violation of the 4th that demands the death penalty? ESV | Eze 18:4 Behold, all souls are mine; the soul of the father as well as the soul of the son is mine: the soul who sins shall die.

ESV | 1 Jn 2:3 And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. 4 Whoever says “I know him” but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, 5 but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may know that we are in him: 6 whoever says he abides in him ought to walk in the same way in which he walked.

ESV | Jn 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

ESV | Ac 18:4 And he reasoned in the synagogue every Sabbath, and tried to persuade Jews and Greeks.

Nothing here tells me except the 4th for Gentiles.

Gerry, nothing you wrote allows anything but an immediate death penalty, usually stoning, for those who break the Sabbath. How many non-compliant Adventists have you stoned? If none, by your knowledge, then you break the Fourth Commandment.

God's truly unconditional love, Agape,

[JawgeFromJawja]

Jawge:

God did not bring any other large group out of Egypt!

Gerry: Ah, but yes, Jawge, yes, He did! Egypt is a type of the house of bondage that everyone born into this world is called out and brought out from!

ESV | Ro 6:16 Do you not know that if you present yourselves to anyone as obedient slaves, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin, which leads to death, or of obedience, which leads to righteousness? 17 But thanks be to God, that you who were once slaves of sin have become obedient from the heart to the standard of teaching to which you were committed, 18 and, having been set free from sin, have become slaves of righteousness.

ESV | Ro 2:28 For no one is a Jew who is merely one outwardly, nor is circumcision outward and physical. 29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.

ESV | Ga 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. 28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is no male and female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus. 29 And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.

ESV | Is 56:6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant— 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”

ESV | Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

ESV | Nu 15:16 One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

Gerry, where is your Scriptural reference that Israel in this case is a "type"? I personally do not accept interjecting points of doctrine into Scripture when the Scriptural reference is at all unclear on the matter. Scripture is complicated enough as it is. To allow interjection of intended meaning of any and every point of doctrine of all belief systems, valid or invalid, into scripture would make The Bible totally irrelevant SPIRITUALLY, and allow all kinds of weird dogma, such as that of Jones and other murderous criminals. Spiritually, The Bible is the foundation of my beliefs.

Agape,