Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom? A Question from a Heretical Bapt

[JawgeFromJawja]

Quote:

The Law of God is to live in love. Love is the principle of the Law, and Love is the Law. In one of my favorite Bible verses Jesus Himself tells us:

Mat 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

So, considering all that you have written regarding that the Law of God is to live in love, why do you not allow for God to insist on a time for us to meet with Him?

It's in the 10 Commandments...It is a time designed to meet with our Savior and relish in His works....It is an example of God's desire to be with us. Why do you deny that Love would desire us and set a time for us to met with Him exclusively?

Like two lovers who set a time to meet, who desire to see each other amid thier other responsiblities/obligations/duties, the Sabbath is a time to "remember" the reason for our being together with God [aka Love]....

Why is that so anthema to you...?

Well, gracious. That is not anathema to me. If you want to designate the Sabbath as your set time to be with God, a time that was mandated Scripturally only for the Children of Israel, fine. Your prerogative. I have repeatedly and sincerely said that I honor and respect Adventists for their commitment to the Sabbath. Personally, I prefer to remember God, to revere God, to hold God my Father in reverence not on the Sabbath, but also on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, and not only daily, but every moment of each day in ongoing devotion to Him, and by my love for my fellow man. Why deprive yourself? God promised through Jesus, "--- and,lo,I am with you alway ---" - Matthew 28: 20

[Neil D]

Well, gracious. That is not anathema to me. If you want to designate the Sabbath as your set time to be with God, a time that was mandated Scripturally only for the Children of Israel, fine. Your prerogative. I have repeatedly and sincerely said that I honor and respect Adventists for their commitment to the Sabbath. Personally, I prefer to remember God, to revere God, to hold God my Father in reverence not on the Sabbath, but also on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, and not only daily, but every moment of each day in ongoing devotion to Him, and by my love for my fellow man. Why deprive yourself? God promised through Jesus, "--- and,lo,I am with you alway ---" - Matthew 28: 20

"for the children of Isreal"...?

You can read that the Sabbath was made during the creation week...before there was a "children of Isreal"...

And why do you think that WE only revere Him on Sabbath? Do you not believe that we are as passionate about God as you are?..That He is with us always... Let me assure you, we hold Him in as much esteem on other days of the week as you do...But because God said, "Remember the Sabbath..", He makes a date with us...We don't make that date.. If that is the case, Sabbath must indeed be a special time for us...and, dare I say, we hold Him in greater fervor (love) than you...

So, again, I ask you..With all the background that God is Love and that we are to live in love, why do you continue to persist in your anathema against the Sabbath?

[JawgeFromJawja]

"for the children of Isreal"...?

You can read that the Sabbath was made during the creation week...before there was a "children of Isreal"...

And why do you think that WE only revere Him on Sabbath? Do you not believe that we are as passionate about God as you are?..That He is with us always... Let me assure you, we hold Him in as much esteem on other days of the week as you do...But because God said, "Remember the Sabbath..", He makes a date with us...We don't make that date.. If that is the case, Sabbath must indeed be a special time for us...and, dare I say, we hold Him in greater fervor (love) than you...

So, again, I ask you..With all the background that God is Love and that we are to live in love, why do you continue to persist in your anathema against the Sabbath?

[John317]

... Personally, I prefer to remember God, to revere God, to hold God my Father in reverence not on the Sabbath, but also on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, and not only daily, but every moment of each day in ongoing devotion to Him, and by my love for my fellow man. Why deprive yourself? God promised through Jesus, "--- and,lo,I am with you alway ---" - Matthew 28: 20

Yes, this is true, and Seventh-day Adventists don't worship or revere God only on the seventh day Sabbath. The Bible does not say to only worship God on the Sabbath. Rather, the Sabbath is like the zenish of worshipping and living for God all during the week. Only a holy people can keep the Sabbath holy.

But avoiding the Sabbath would be a travesty since it is God's special day that was blessed in a special way in order to meet with you. It would be the same as telling your wife that you won't keep your anniversary but will keep it on an entirely different day.Do you think she would be happy? It would defeat the very purpose of the Sabbath.

[BobRyan]

"for the children of Isreal"...?

You can read that the Sabbath was made during the creation week...before there was a "children of Isreal"...

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

... Personally, I prefer to remember God, to revere God, to hold God my Father in reverence not on the Sabbath, but also on Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, and Friday, and not only daily, but every moment of each day in ongoing devotion to Him, and by my love for my fellow man. Why deprive yourself? God promised through Jesus, "--- and,lo,I am with you alway ---" - Matthew 28: 20

Yes, this is true, and Seventh-day Adventists don't worship or revere God only on the seventh day Sabbath. The Bible does not say to only worship God on the Sabbath. Rather, the Sabbath is like the zenish of worshipping and living for God all during the week. Only a holy people can keep the Sabbath holy.

But avoiding the Sabbath would be a travesty since it is God's special day that was blessed in a special way in order to meet with you. It would be the same as telling your wife that you won't keep your anniversary but will keep it on an entirely different day.Do you think she would be happy? It would defeat the very purpose of the Sabbath.

John, your analogy falls apart. No Christian of any denomination avoids the Sabbath. A committed Christian meets, worships, and reveres God every day, 24/7/365 1/4. The Sabbath was a covenant between God and his chosen people, the people of the First Testament, The Children of Israel, The Jews. You cannot show that the Sabbath was an anniversary or any other type of recurring memorial for Christians or people other than Jews. Unless Scripture is stretched, twisted, and distorted one cannot find such a mandate for Christians.

Once again, this is not an anti-Jewish or anti-semitic statement. There are mean spirited individuals who will try to make it such, but in this country no one could possibly love, respect, and honor Jews more than I.

In my case, surrounded by Seventh Day Adventists of various degrees of commitment to the Sabbath, I gladly accept them on their own terms, without positive or negative comment. Frankly, in 52 years of experience with my wife's relatives and her Adventist friends, and my own Adventist in laws and friends, I have never encountered an Adventist who kept the Sabbath as strictly as committed Orthodox Jews of various persuasions. But this does not matter - Paul said explicitly

Rom 14:5 One indeed esteems a day above another day; and another esteems every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind.

Furthermore, Paul did not condemn "each one" for determining the sacred course for each one, himself.

Agape,

[BobRyan]

A committed Christian meets, worships, and reveres God every day, 24/7/365 1/4.

While that statement is patently false as stated. Perhaps it was merely intended to tickle some ears while having no basis in scripture.

Part of that statement however is true - a committed Christian worships God every day - and reveres God all day.

The Sabbath was "made for mankind". Mark 2:27

The New Covenant was "made with the house of Israel" Heb 8.

And as God Himself stated "From Sabbath to Sabbath all all mankind come before Me to worship".

Therefore "the remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God" Heb 4 - not only at the time of David - but also to this very day!

Speaking of the ceremonial annual feast days of Lev 23 - Paul said -

Rom 14:5 One person regards one day above another, another regards every day (alike) Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind.

6 He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord,

I for one prefer these statements of scripture - to the man made traditions of certain men.

I am thankful that teachers like Andy Stanley and Charles Stanley also "get the point" of the Sabbath applying to all mankind since the days of Adam.

How nice that some of our baptist friends are willing to read the Bible and even listen to some teachers such as Andy Stanley on that Sabbath point!

in Christ,

Bob

[Neil D]

John, your analogy falls apart. No Christian of any denomination avoids the Sabbath. A committed Christian meets, worships, and reveres God every day, 24/7/365 1/4. The Sabbath was a covenant between God and his chosen people, the people of the First Testament, The Children of Israel, The Jews. You cannot show that the Sabbath was an anniversary or any other type of recurring memorial for Christians or people other than Jews. Unless Scripture is stretched, twisted, and distorted one cannot find such a mandate for Christians.

[phkrause]

John, your analogy falls apart. No Christian of any denomination avoids the Sabbath. A committed Christian meets, worships, and reveres God every day, 24/7/365 1/4. The Sabbath was a covenant between God and his chosen people, the people of the First Testament, The Children of Israel, The Jews. You cannot show that the Sabbath was an anniversary or any other type of recurring memorial for Christians or people other than Jews. Unless Scripture is stretched, twisted, and distorted one cannot find such a mandate for Christians.

Once again, this is not an anti-Jewish or anti-semitic statement. There are mean spirited individuals who will try to make it such, but in this country no one could possibly love, respect, and honor Jews more than I.

In my case, surrounded by Seventh Day Adventists of various degrees of commitment to the Sabbath, I gladly accept them on their own terms, without positive or negative comment. Frankly, in 52 years of experience with my wife's relatives and her Adventist friends, and my own Adventist in laws and friends, I have never encountered an Adventist who kept the Sabbath as strictly as committed Orthodox Jews of various persuasions. But this does not matter - Paul said explicitly

Rom 14:5 One indeed esteems a day above another day; and another esteems every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind.

Furthermore, Paul did not condemn "each one" for determining the sacred course for each one, himself.

Agape,

I disagree George, all the Christian friends I have that are not SDA avoid the Sabbath like the plaque(sp).

[JawgeFromJawja]

Ham, my internal responses in blue. Saves having to re-do quotes over and over.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

John, your analogy falls apart. No Christian of any denomination avoids the Sabbath. A committed Christian meets, worships, and reveres God every day, 24/7/365 1/4. The Sabbath was a covenant between God and his chosen people, the people of the First Testament, The Children of Israel, The Jews. You cannot show that the Sabbath was an anniversary or any other type of recurring memorial for Christians or people other than Jews. Unless Scripture is stretched, twisted, and distorted one cannot find such a mandate for Christians.

8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Yes, this is in the Decalogue, which was explicitly directed to Israel:

[color:#000099]Exo 19:1 In the third month, when the children of Israel were gone forth out of the land of Egypt, the same day came they into the wilderness of Sinai.

Exo 19:2 For they were departed from Rephidim, and were come to the desert of Sinai, and had pitched in the wilderness; and there Israel camped before the mount.

Exo 19:3

And Moses went up unto God, and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;

Exo 19:4 Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.

Exo 19:5 Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:

This and so many other verses in the Old Testament reveals that the Sabbath was given to Israel that they may show it as a sign that Jews are the people of the First Covenant.

Exo 19:6 And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Have you ever even been to Egypt? Even if you were, you were not brought out of Egypt by God.

------- Several intervening verses do not in any way specify any but The Children of Israel.

9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the LORD your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

Why are we to "remember the Sabbath day"?

What's this "we" business, Ham? The verses are directed to Israel, not you or any other non-Jew.

God says that we have 6 days do to all that we need to do, but He wants us [all our family, our friends, our loved ones, our hired help, our guests even the animals in our house] to experience what He made during Creation week.

Seems to me that is a recurring mandate for all His people...And Jesus reinforced that mandate by saying that the Sabbath was made for mankind....

<< Seems to me that you either do not understand English, or you gloss over passages too rapidly for real understanding.

Unless you can show that God Himself said that He doesn't want us to keep the Sabbath

<< I never said that. I have always said that I respect those who keep the Sabbath. >>

and all the love principles of relationship there in,

<< Ham, how do you get from keeping the Sabbath to the principle of love, AGAPE? It is a non sequitur >>

you have a serious problem about understanding the character of Love- Who saved us, redeemed us and want to be with us...."Remember..." The Sabbath is not about people...it IS about God.

I indeed understand love, all types. The Sabbath has nothing to do with a Gentile's love for God. It seems to me that you are terribly confused about what God requires of Christians. As far as love, see my statement at the end of this reply.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

... But this does not matter - Paul said explicitly

Rom 14:5 One indeed esteems a day above another day; and another esteems every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind.

Furthermore, Paul did not condemn "each one" for determining the sacred course for each one, himself.

Since when does Paul emphasis self love over agape love?

That is what you are saying here....A follower of Christ NEVER emphasizes the choice of self over the spirit of love....And that is what you are making this out to be...."Let each one be foully assured in his own mind"...How can Paul be saying that when he tells us -

You are so confused. I have a college degree and a post graduate degree, but still cannot follow your reasoning.

Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5 He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7 In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8 which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is,the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14 who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

15 For this reason I too, having heard of the faith in the Lord Jesus which exists among you and your love for all the saints, 16 do not cease giving thanks for you, while making mention of you in my prayers; 17 that the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give to you a spirit of wisdom and of revelation in the knowledge of Him. 18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints, 19 and what is the surpassing greatness of His power toward us who believe. These are in accordance with the working of the strength of His might 20 which He brought about in Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places, 21 far above all rule and authority and power and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this age but also in the one to come. 22 And He put all things in subjection under His feet, and gave Him as head over all things to the church, 23 which is His body, the fullness of Him who fills all in all.

That, my friend, is what I hope for you....and I don't think, in your present spiritual condition, you can ever hope to get it...You lack faith....in Christ....I can say that because I've been where you are at...I can also say, "come on up....the view is glorious from here."

Ham, when did you last read Torah, the first five books of The Bible? You just do not find keeping Sabbath mandated for any but Israel in any passage of Torah. (Or any other passage in The Old Testament, for that matter, unless stretched beyond any intended meaning). The Scripture is just not there unless it is twisted and tweaked to the point of being ridiculous.

Ham, do not speak to me of following Christ when you make such mean spirited statements as "and I don't think, in your present spiritual condition, you can ever hope to get it...You lack faith....in Christ..." . What do you know about my present spiritual condition? How do you even arrive at conclusions about my spirituality to make such statements? How do you know the state of my faith in Christ? You are being judgmental. Who or what gives you the authority to be judgmental? Finally, you have repeatedly stated that I am anti-Jewish. No one who knows my life could possibly say that. You owe me an apology on that.

I make no judgments about you except possibly your being judgmental. Your statements are mean-spirited, but you are not necessarily mean-spirited. You need to pray often for wisdom and enlightenment. I have added you to my prayer list - that I may understand you, that you may understand Agape, that you may understand Jesus' teachings without enclosing them in a spirit of rancor, that I totally forgive you for what I perceive as being mean spirited, that I can truly love you in the Spirit of Christ, and that you truly love me in the same Spirit.

On Christmas Morning 2010 I was visited by God. I did not ask for that visit, I did not expect it, nor have I ever felt that I merited such a visit. However, you, too, can experience such closeness to God, even a similar visit, if you begin to focus on the real Truth of Jesus' teachings, and if you live in the Spirit of Love, or if you are at least committed to the Spirit of Love.

My prayers include asking God's blessings on you.

Agape,

[BobRyan]

God said - in "Legal code" that the very "details" in the Gen 1:-2:3 account of Creation so offensive to evolutionists and Bible-deniers - are the very details that are trustworthy and accurate - to the point "of Law".

11 For in six days the LORD made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day and made it holy.

God tells us "What matters is keeping the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

But the "traditions of man" say to "ignore the commandments of God".

Who will you listen to ??

God says the "Sabbath was made for mankind " Mark 2;27

But the "traditions of man" say to "ignore the WORD of God" in cases such as that - where you find the word of God "inconvenient" to your man-made traditions.

The Word of God says -

7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'

8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''

9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition.

10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER'; and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';

11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'

12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;

13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

John, your analogy falls apart. No Christian of any denomination avoids the Sabbath. A committed Christian meets, worships, and reveres God every day, 24/7/365 1/4. The Sabbath was a covenant between God and his chosen people, the people of the First Testament, The Children of Israel, The Jews. You cannot show that the Sabbath was an anniversary or any other type of recurring memorial for Christians or people other than Jews. Unless Scripture is stretched, twisted, and distorted one cannot find such a mandate for Christians.

Once again, this is not an anti-Jewish or anti-semitic statement. There are mean spirited individuals who will try to make it such, but in this country no one could possibly love, respect, and honor Jews more than I.

In my case, surrounded by Seventh Day Adventists of various degrees of commitment to the Sabbath, I gladly accept them on their own terms, without positive or negative comment. Frankly, in 52 years of experience with my wife's relatives and her Adventist friends, and my own Adventist in laws and friends, I have never encountered an Adventist who kept the Sabbath as strictly as committed Orthodox Jews of various persuasions. But this does not matter - Paul said explicitly

Rom 14:5 One indeed esteems a day above another day; and another esteems every day alike. Let each one be fully assured in his own mind.

Furthermore, Paul did not condemn "each one" for determining the sacred course for each one, himself.

Agape,

I disagree George, all the Christian friends I have that are not SDA avoid the Sabbath like the plaque(sp).

Funny thing, pkrause. The wife of my youth and I find the opposite to be true. Do you suppose that my marriage to an Adventist girl makes the difference in the circle of friends we have? On thinking just a little about this, you would think that mixed breeds such as us would unconsciously seek for friends those who tolerate my wife's beliefs, or mine. On the other hand, over the years I have literally butted heads with Adventists (and atheists including my youngest brother, and dyed in the wool fundamentalists such as my middle brother, and those of non-Christian faiths, and those who just seem to be made for a scrap) who are deeply rooted in the Adventist doctrines I consider the least defensible by Scripture, and I have been just as bull-headed as they. Some of those most deeply entrenched in doctrine, even as strongly as I, and who have argued the most heatedly, have become close friends. Howcome? But as far as keeping the Sabbath, our non-SDA friends are not usually in any way hostile or augmentative.

Another funny thing, or maybe not so strange: organizations that are most interested in keeping peace do no allow discussion of religion or politics during gatherings.

God's blessings in overwhelming abundance,

[John317]

John, your analogy falls apart. No Christian of any denomination avoids the Sabbath. A committed Christian meets, worships, and reveres God every day, 24/7/365 1/4. The Sabbath was a covenant between God and his chosen people, the people of the First Testament, The Children of Israel, The Jews. You cannot show that the Sabbath was an anniversary or any other type of recurring memorial for Christians or people other than Jews. Unless Scripture is stretched, twisted, and distorted one cannot find such a mandate for Christians.

There's only one day in the week that is "the Sabbath," and that's the seventh day of the week. English-speaking people today call it Saturday. My wife calls it Sabado or dia del reposo, "day of rest."

Notice I didn't say people avoid Saturday. That is an impossibility unless you die. But when we say people avoid the Sabbath, we mean they avoid keeping the Lord's Sabbath day holy.

Only a holy person, or holy people, can keep the Sabbath holy. It requires being holy all week long. That's why God commands us "to remember to keep the Sabbath holy," because it is only as we remember what it signifies-- and act upon it every day of the week-- that we can truly keep the Sabbath holy.

[Neil D]

8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

[color:#000099] Yes, this is in the Decalogue, which was explicitly directed to Israel:

This and so many other verses in the Old Testament reveals that the Sabbath was given to Israel that they may show it as a sign that Jews are the people of the First Covenant.

[phkrause]

Funny thing, pkrause. The wife of my youth and I find the opposite to be true. Do you suppose that my marriage to an Adventist girl makes the difference in the circle of friends we have? On thinking just a little about this, you would think that mixed breeds such as us would unconsciously seek for friends those who tolerate my wife's beliefs, or mine. On the other hand, over the years I have literally butted heads with Adventists (and atheists including my youngest brother, and dyed in the wool fundamentalists such as my middle brother, and those of non-Christian faiths, and those who just seem to be made for a scrap) who are deeply rooted in the Adventist doctrines I consider the least defensible by Scripture, and I have been just as bull-headed as they. Some of those most deeply entrenched in doctrine, even as strongly as I, and who have argued the most heatedly, have become close friends. Howcome? But as far as keeping the Sabbath, our non-SDA friends are not usually in any way hostile or augmentative.

I didn't mean that those I know are hostile, there just not interested one iota in the Sabbath. Most actually believe that the Sabbath was done away with by the Pope/RCC. They believe that the Bible is no longer vallied. And the Protestants claim Jesus did away with the Sabbath, interesting since there are 9 other commandments and yet there still valied??? Makes no sense. So if your more interested in worshiping on a day that was man made, that is your progative(sp). I still accept you as a brother in Christ.

[BobRyan]

Very true PK - however we are thankful for good Baptist leaders like D.L.Moody, Andy Stanley and Charles Stanley - who all publicly admit that the Sabbath began in Eden, Applies to all mankind, was created as what we see the Adventists observing today the Seventh day of the week - and is still in force.

Though they may get other details wrong - they at least get that much right.

in Christ,

Bob

[Windsor]

Ultimately George there was no Christian, Jew or Gentile at the time this was written that was keeping any other day out of the 7 holy except for the 7th day. Hence, this was not a matter of debate at the church at that time and hence Romans could not possibly be talking about keeping the 7th day versus the 1st versus the 3rd, etc.

[phkrause]

Very true PK - however we are thankful for good Baptist leaders like D.L.Moody, Andy Stanley and Charles Stanley - who all publicly admit that the Sabbath began in Eden, Applies to all mankind, was created as what we see the Adventists observing today the Seventh day of the week - and is still in force.

Though they may get other details wrong - they at least get that much right.

in Christ,

Bob

[Dr. Rich]

It's not about keeping the Sabbath only. Adam and Eve were good people and never hurt anyone, but they failed to obey what God had commanded--which as a sin. It's not about anything other than obeying God--period. It has nothing to do with being good or bad--it is a choice we all must make, to obey or not to obey--the Ten Commandments and the testimony of Jesus Christ (His words).

[Gail]

Very true PK - however we are thankful for good Baptist leaders like D.L.Moody, Andy Stanley and Charles Stanley - who all publicly admit that the Sabbath began in Eden, Applies to all mankind, was created as what we see the Adventists observing today the Seventh day of the week - and is still in force.

Though they may get other details wrong - they at least get that much right.

in Christ,

Bob

<-Can I bold that?

[Gail]

It's not about keeping the Sabbath only. Adam and Eve were good people and never hurt anyone, but they failed to obey what God had commanded--which as a sin. It's not about anything other than obeying God--period. It has nothing to do with being good or bad--it is a choice we all must make, to obey or not to obey--the Ten Commandments and the testimony of Jesus Christ (His words).

Sweet reply, Dr. Rich!

I personally believe (this is just me talking) that there are gonna be some things that won't make sense to us at all but come under the same heading of simply obeying because God said it, like Abraham being called out of his homeland to go to a land that he didn't even know. And the Bible says that Abraham's obedience was counted to him for righteousness (see: James 2:23

And the scripture was fulfilled that says, “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness,” and he was called God’s friend. NIV)

Now he didn't obey or have faith in all things, but in this thing he did, and God acknowledged it.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Many thanks to all Adventists and all others who even bothered to read my posts in this topic, let alone respond to them.

On reviewing your various posts, it becomes obvious that some of you think I have a motive to “convert” you. My assumption is that if you are a professing Christian, as most Adventists are – and just as most members of any Christian denomination - a believer in God’s salvation through Jesus Christ’s sacrifice, then you do not need conversion. You are safe for eternity, for our salvation depends only on the glorious sacrifice made by Our Lord.

Most of us mature Christians realize that doctrinal differences do not amount to a hill of beans in God’s view. His bottom line is the Salvation of all of us, no matter the doctrine, with the one exception being faith in God through Jesus Christ.

1Ti 2:3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior,

1Ti 2:4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

1Ti 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,

1Ti 2:6 who gave himself as a ransom for all people. This has now been witnessed to at the proper time.

God wants all to be saved, and to come to a knowledge of the truth. The truth? What, some doctrine, some belief having nothing to do with God’s love? No, I don’t think so. That TRUTH is singular. The sentence uses the definite article “the” to reference THE TRUTH, and I believe that TRUTH refers to God’s very character LOVE, and that when we accept God in faith, we treat all mankind in God’s Spirit of LOVE.

Far from conversion. Most of you do not need it. Now my only motive for being on this forum is to remind you that there are other widely varying doctrines held by numerous divers denominations of Christianity. But your salvation depends only on one doctrine, that of God’s Grace in providing salvation through faith.

God is Love, and may God’s Love be with you all, especially those who most strongly disagree with me in anything.

George from Clayton, in Appalachian Georgia.

[BobRyan]

Many thanks to all Baptists such as Andy Stanley and Charles Stanley and yes - even D.L.Moody for taking the moral high ground and freely admitting to the Bible fact that the Seventh Day Sabbath was given to mankind in the garden of Eden - and is to this very day binding upon all mankind.

sadly some of your Baptist brethren seek to deny the first 11 chapters of the Word of God and thus are willingly confused on a great many points of scripture. But to Charles and Andy and Dwight and others who like them are willing to admit to those basic Bible facts -- we say a glad "amen"!

in Christ,

Bob

[JawgeFromJawja]

HamiltonBeach posted:

Ok, I'm sorry....I'm sorry that you don't believe the bible.

You are so wrong on that. For spiritual instruction, I believe The Bible far more strongly than ever before in my life. My interpretations are just as valid to me as yours are to you. By the way, “The Bible” should be capitalized.

I'm sorry that you don't understand the character of God.

This is a downright evil statement to make of any Christian. Don’t bother to give me one of your pseudo-apologies – I honestly forgive you for that statement, but I think you had best seek God’s forgiveness, too.

I'm sorry that you don't understand relationships...

I must say that this is an exceedingly arrogant statement. And puzzling. But at this point, your making such a statement does not surprize me. Not saying you are arrogant – just that the statement is arrogant. George Collier King does not understand relationships? Try just this one: my wife and I have been married for over 52 years, despite being of different faiths, and despite the active discouragement of our lasting relationship by my family, my friends, her family, her friends and friends of her family, and her church in discouraging our relationship.

Relationships? Try my relationship with God – He visited me this past Christmas morning radiantly manifesting the essence of His Character, which is Love. There was no way that I deserved or merited that visit. George Collier King is selfish, peevish, sometimes mean-spirited, and in the past a perpetrator of all too many scandalous actions. God’s Spirit has informed me that such visits are a legacy of all Christians – not just the saintly and angelic - and there are such people. One of my missions for the rest of my life will be to inform Christians of this legacy, which like salvation is unmerited.

I'm sorry that you don't understand that God desires to bestow you with a heart of flesh, and remove that cold hard hearted stone that you call a heart...

This is such a judgmental statement. And this statement, too, is based solely on my not accepting many of your doctrines. Further, this is judgmental because you do not know my behavior with others outside Club Adventist, whether it be warm or cold. Our Lord Himself said,

Mat 7:1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.

Mat 7:2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

Mat 7:3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

Mat 7:4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

Again, I totally forgive you. Even so, you best talk to God and seek forgiveness for such a judgmental attitude. And yes, I have already considered that in saying you are judgmental that I myself am being --- judgmental! I shall pray about it, and ask God’s forgiveness. Hopefully, you can eventually realize what judgmental statements you made.

And yes, I am sorry that you continue to insult the Jews even though you have had a great life among them....

You are sorry? Your statement is one of the sorriest things that anyone ever said about me. It is in no way true, and it is very hurtful considering the number of Jewish friends I have. Despite your lame excuse for an apology, I totally forgive you. Again, I suggest you pray to God about this.

And yes, I am sorry that you can not and will not understand that the Sabbath is more about God than it is about us...and most of all, I am sorry that you will not understand that what I spoke of was not mean spirited , at least it was not intended so...So, yes, ..I am sorry....

I guess that we will just have to agree that we are not going to see any where close to eye to eye...

You are not sorry for anything. You posted a cynical excuse for an apology. You are mostly sorry that I do not accept your professed doctrines.

Your post was extremely cynical sounding and arrogant in tone, and actually contrary to the Adventism I am so familiar with. You should speak to the moderator about the judgmental attitude and tone of the above statements. The post has saddened me beyond anything I have ever been told in my Christian life. Young man, you need to learn that it is quite possible to disagree doctrinally with others without attacking their character and integrity – referring to saying that I have a stone heart, that I know nothing of relationships, that I don’t believe The Bible because my interpretation is at variance with yours, and that I don’t know the Character of God, and that I insult the Jews. Unless you change your attitude and tone, it is quite possible that you will fail to win any more souls, if indeed you have ever won a soul. No one likes to be insulted when a Christian is witnessing to her or him.

This has been one of the saddest experiences of my Christian life. I strongly need to pray for myself, and for improvement in yours and my mutual relationship (God does effect miracles – I have personally witnessed them), and for my forgiveness for overreacting and taking offence.

Once more, for my thin-skinned reaction, I pray for forgiveness from you and God. And I totally forgive you for any offence.

May God bless us and forgive us both,

George

[Guest]

Mar 2:27 And he said unto them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath:

Is m-a-n just an alternate way of spelling Jew? I was unaware.

But the Greek dictionary doesn't seem to agree with that. It has this to say:

Man-

Strong's #G444

- anth'-ro-pos -

1) a human being, whether male or female

a) generically, to include all human individuals

to distinguish man from beings of a different order