Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom? A Question from a Heretical Bapt

[BobRyan]

Pkrause, there is no Scriptural mandate that all people keep the Sabbath. Please show me the verse if you think so. Nobody has yet done so.

The Jews before Christ had a tradition of The Noachian Law. Those laws included no blasphemy, no worship of idols, no killing, no stealing, honesty, and sexual purity. The Noachian Law does not include keeping the Sabbath. Jewish tradition has it that Gentiles who keep the Noachian Law in good faith are righteous in the sight of God. God's purpose for Israel was to act as a nation of priests for God. When Israel taught the Noachian Law, they were doing just that.

Highest regards

[phkrause]

I have many rebuttals to this post, pkrause. Please do not take the rebuttal personally, for I respect you above many participants on the forum.

In essence, you are saying that only those following the Adventist doctrines have a chance for salvation when Jesus returns.

First, look at the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus, God, God the Holy Spirit, are all the same. Don't just pay lip service to the doctrine of the trinity. Either Jesus is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and God the Son, or He is not.

If you accept the doctrine of the Trinity, then as The Holy Spirit Jesus returned the second time on the Day of Pentecost as described in the New Testament. If you want to dance around that concept, then give up the doctrine of the Trinity.

Second, the Jewish people (nation, people, folk, or whatever - it is quite blurred)alone were given the burden or mandate to keep the Sabbath. That is so clear in the Torah. To deny that is to do quite a hoola hoop of a semantic dance.

Third, the Jews were, and are still to be, a nation, (nation?. Classifying Jews makes my head spin.) to spread the Good News of God's Love to the world. They were to spread the knowledge of God and the Glory of God. And they still are to spread that knowledge.

Fourth, the doctrine that mankind has a deadline in accepting God as Lord and Savior, negates the concept of unconditional Love. "Unconditional" becomes conditional on the time limits and other limits that may or may not, and were not, ever set. A quality is either unlimited or limited. Setting time limits limits love.

For this ole Georgia Bulldog, a relatively uneducated guy in matters theological, "unconditional" still means no limits. If "unconditional" includes limits of any kind, then by any rational definition, it just is not unconditional.

Agape

From a guy who believes God's love is just that --- unlimited.

First of Brother I will not take your rebuttals personally. Where all here to have an exchange of ideas, thoughts and beliefs. So I don't take it as an attack on me personally.

Now to your comments.

1-I do believe in the Trinity, but do not buy that they are one and the same being. They are three distinct beings. God the Father, God the Son, who now is Jesus Christ, and God the Holy Spirit. That are all of one accord, that I believe but not the same being.

2-Its not as clear as you want to make it. The Jewish nation did not start until God called Abram. The Sabbath was already instituted at Creation. Its funny how most want to discard just the 4th Commandment! Why not all the rest?? It makes no sense.

3-I no longer believe that, unless they've excepted the Messiah as being Jesus, so that they are regraphed back into the vine.

4-I do agree with most of this comment, but eventually there has to be a limit to his grace to SIN.

As far as your first statement: In essence, you are saying that only those following the Adventist doctrines have a chance for salvation when Jesus returns. I don't believe that at all, but I do believe Revelation, and it says that those remaining when Jesus comes will be keeping the Commandments and the Faith of Jesus. Even EGW says there will be many Sunday keepers that will be saved. But at the end of time when the Sabbath becomes an issue I believe those that don't choose to stand up for God, well I wont say it, but you can guess at what I mean.

[BobRyan]

First, look at the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus, God, God the Holy Spirit, are all the same. Don't just pay lip service to the doctrine of the trinity. Either Jesus is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and God the Son, or He is not.

If you accept the doctrine of the Trinity, then as The Holy Spirit Jesus returned the second time on the Day of Pentecost as described in the New Testament.

[Gerr]

Gerry, nothing you wrote allows anything but an immediate death penalty, usually stoning, for those who break the Sabbath. How many non-compliant Adventists have you stoned? If none, by your knowledge, then you break the Fourth Commandment.

This is getting away from the original point of the thread. We are no longer under a theocracy. And there is nothing in the 4th commandment that authorizes me to stone a Sabbath breaker. The one that was stoned in Exodus, violated the commandment in a high-handed/in-your-face manner. He was made an example just like Achan.

We do not deal with adults the same way we deal with children. Neither do we deal with free people the same way we deal with slaves who have masters who do the thinking for them. All sin, no matter which commandment has been violated, results in death unless repented of.

[Gerr]

Gerry, where is your Scriptural reference that Israel in this case is a "type"? I personally do not accept interjecting points of doctrine into Scripture when the Scriptural reference is at all unclear on the matter. Scripture is complicated enough as it is. To allow interjection of intended meaning of any and every point of doctrine of all belief systems, valid or invalid, into scripture would make The Bible totally irrelevant SPIRITUALLY, and allow all kinds of weird dogma, such as that of Jones and other murderous criminals. Spiritually, The Bible is the foundation of my beliefs.

Agape,

Agreed that the Bible is/should be the foundation of our beliefs.

ESV | ‎Ex 20:2 “I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery

ESV | ‎Jn 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.

ESV | ‎Ro 6:22 But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the fruit you get leads to sanctification and its end, eternal life.

You don't see the parallel, Jawge? And what did you think of this?

ESV | Is 56:6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant— 7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”

ESV | Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,

ESV | Nu 15:16 One law and one rule shall be for you and for the stranger who sojourns with you.”

Furthermore:

ESV | ‎Ro 3:29 Or is God the God of Jews only? Is he not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also, ‎30 since God is one—who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith.

ESV | ‎Eph 5:23 ...Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior.

ONE Lord, ONE faith, ONE baptism, ONE Head, ONE body, ONE door, ONE way of being saved. It is inconceivable for me that the God who said, "I change not..." and who "...is no respecter of persons," could have different requirements for different people.

[Gerr]

Gerry, nothing you wrote allows anything but an immediate death penalty, usually stoning, for those who break the Sabbath. How many non-compliant Adventists have you stoned? If none, by your knowledge, then you break the Fourth Commandment.

BTW, Jawge, since you believe that the OT 9 commandments apply to you, have you stoned or do you stone anyone who commits or has committed adultery? See Lev 20:10, Dt 22:22.

[John317]

BTW, Jawge, since you believe that the OT 9 commandments apply to you, have you stoned or do you stone anyone who commits or has committed adultery? See Lev 20:10, Dt 22:22.

Excellent point.

The punishments for breaking the moral law were part of the civil law of Israel while living in a theocracy. We don't live in a theocracy and therefore those punishments don't apply to us now.

As you point out we don't stone people who commit adultery. Neither do we execute those who have sex with animals or with members of their own gender. Yet the violations of the moral law of God remain just as sinful. We leave the punishment for sin up to God. The same principle applies to Sabbath breaking.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Actually' date=' the passages I referenced mandate only the Jews and those dwelling with them keep the Sabbath. But there is no restriction on Sabbath keeping by non-Jews.

Again, those passages are Exodus 19:25; Exodus 20:1, 2;

Exo 20:8 through Exodus 20:11;

Exodus 31:12 through Exo 31:17

Lev 19:1 through 19: 3;

Deu 5:1 through Deu 5: 3

[color:#000099']Deuteronomy Chapter 5 is largely a catalog of God's commandments and statutes for Israel. No other nation or group is specified.

Deu 5:12 through 5: 15.

While there is no proscription for non-Jews on keeping the Sabbath in Torah, there is no dispensation to partially keep the Sabbath. The Scriptural penalty for violating the Sabbath is quite severe, death by stoning.

Paul's Epistle to the Galatians makes it quite clear that we Christians receive the Spirit, that is, we are justified in Christ.

And look at these very interesting verses:

Gal 3:26 for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus,

Gal 3:27 for as many as to Christ were baptized did put on Christ;

Gal 3:28 there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;

Gal 3:29 and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise--heirs.

We heirs of Abraham. But heirs to the burden of the Law? No. We are heirs to salvation in The Lord.

Gal 4:9 But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?

Gal 4:10 Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years.

Gal 4:11 I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

"Ye observe days"? Those days are not specified, so obviously "days" here includes the weekly Sabbath, the single most important holy day for Jews.

Paul is leading up to stating that Christians are not under the Law.

What? Does that freedom from the Covenant Law of the Jews give us license for gross immorality? Absolutely not!

Gal 5:13 For, brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

We are to walk in The Spirit, Who is our constant Guide. The Catholic Church and others who adhere to a doctrine demanding works as well as faith for salvation put up a straw man to attack faith and Grace only believers. They accuse those believing in Grace and faith only of fabricating an excuse for any desired immoral behavior. However, the truly converted Christian makes every effort to follow The Spirit, as required in Galatians 5: 13 and 14.

Gal 5:15 But if ye bite and devour one another, take heed that ye be not consumed one of another.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

What a light burden! What a joyful burden! What a great inheritance! Then Paul catalogs the behaviors that are not of the Spirit:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

Gal 5:26 Let us not be desirous of vain glory, provoking one another, envying one another.

A similar catalog of behavior required of Christians by The Spirit is found in numerous passages in the New Testament. None of those passages includes keeping the Sabbath.

I think Galatians makes it clearer than any other New Testament Book that Christians are not under the Law, which includes keeping the Sabbath.

Even so, I greatly admire Adventists for their commitment to Sabbath keeping, as I do any Christian who makes and keeps a special vow to God. The dynamics of keeping vows to God are discussed at length in the Old Testament. Some of the spiritually strongest Christians I have ever encountered are those Adventists who truly keep the Sabbath in Spirit and act.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Gerry, nothing you wrote allows anything but an immediate death penalty, usually stoning, for those who break the Sabbath. How many non-compliant Adventists have you stoned? If none, by your knowledge, then you break the Fourth Commandment.

BTW, Jawge, since you believe that the OT 9 commandments apply to you, have you stoned or do you stone anyone who commits or has committed adultery? See Lev 20:10, Dt 22:22.

Gerry, I made that post to show how dreadful, how brutal, are the penalties for breaking the Law.

Jewish tradition is that Gentiles who keep a specified 7 of the 10 Commandments (the so-called Noachian Law) in the right spirit are righteous in the sight of God. Keeping the Sabbath is not one of those 7.

But I am a Christian. The Law does not apply to born again Christians. Note this very important passage from Galatians:

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

Gal 5:17 For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would.

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

But being in The Spirit does not give us carte blanche to sin. Being under Grace through faith is not a license for immorality:

Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Gal 5:20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,

Gal 5:21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The Torah does require the death penalty for breaking many of the Laws, including the Fourth Commandment; this is quite clear.

However, walking in The Spirit does not require Christians to punish Law breakers. The Spirit of Love does require that we rescue fallen Christians, that we lift them up and strengthen them:

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

But we are to do this in a spirit of meekness and love:

Gal 6:3 For if a man think himself to be something, when he is nothing, he deceiveth himself.

Gal 6:4 But let every man prove his own work, and then shall he have rejoicing in himself alone, and not in another.

Gal 6:5 For every man shall bear his own burden. [That is, be responsible for repentance when falling. This does not preclude our helping our brothers and sisters in difficulties and trials.]

The operative word for the whole dynamic of righteousness by Grace through faith is that beautiful little word "LOVE". Salvation is a gift given in love, and our watchword for walking in The Spirit is Love.

God's LOVE to all.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Good Sabbath Jawge. Others have already given those verses, that mention "all mankind" so I'm not gonna give them again. The no worshiping idols, stealing, etc., are all in the 10 Commandments.

No the Jewish nation was to be an example as what we should do. As was Jesus, an example of what we should do.

So than why does it say in Rev 14 that his people at the end just before he comes, would be keeping his commandments? Are those just the Jews? He's talking about!! Than I would guess the rest of you will not be ready if he comes in our life time! Because you wont be keeping all of his commandments!

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

BTW, Jawge, since you believe that the OT 9 commandments apply to you, have you stoned or do you stone anyone who commits or has committed adultery? See Lev 20:10, Dt 22:22.

Excellent point.

The punishments for breaking the moral law were part of the civil law of Israel while living in a theocracy. We don't live in a theocracy and therefore those punishments don't apply to us now.

As you point out we don't stone people who commit adultery. Neither do we execute those who have sex with animals or with members of their own gender. Yet the violations of the moral law of God remain just as sinful. We leave the punishment for sin up to God. The same principle applies to Sabbath breaking.

There is no dispensation anywhere in The Bible for capital punishment when the Law is broken. You are bringing up man's excuses for not obeying the Law. You can hide behind your concept of "we are not under a theocracy", but it is not Biblical.

But one more time:

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,

Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Christians are not charged with punishing fallen brothers and sisters unless they take the burden of The Law on themselves:

Gal 6:1 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Gal 6:2 Bear ye one another's burdens, and so fulfil the law of Christ.

The law of Christ is, of course, LOVE.

Agape

[John317]

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of being "under the law"?

Does Gal. 5: 18 mean that when people are led by the Holy Spirit, they don't need to obey God's law-- that they are free to sin?

How does it relate-- if at all-- to Romans 6: 1,2, 15?

[John317]

If we have faith in Christ as our Lord and Savior, does it mean that we don't need to obey God's law-- specifically the Ten Commandments?

If so, why would that be the case?

Look at 1 Tim. 1: 8-14--

Quote:

1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;

1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

QUESTION:

What was the effect upon Paul of his faith in Christ with respect to God's moral law, the Ten Commandments?

Did Paul claim that faith in Christ freed him from obedience to God's law? (See 1 Cor. 9: 21.)

NOTE:

a) The law of God is for people who do not obey it. For instance, the law of God is for people who live in violation of the law against lying, etc.

What happens to people who have faith in Christ? Do they violate the law of God more? Or do they begin to obey the law of God by the grace and power of God? Did Paul continue to blaspheme and persecute?

Or did Paul stop blaspheming God and persecuting people after he accepted Christ as his Savior and Lord?

[JawgeFromJawja]

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of being "under the law"?

Does Gal. 5: 18 mean that when people are led by the Holy Spirit, they don't need to obey God's law-- that they are free to sin?

How does it relate-- if at all-- to Romans 6: 1,2, 15?

[John317]

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of being "under the law"?

Does Gal. 5: 18 mean that when people are led by the Holy Spirit, they don't need to obey God's law-- that they are free to sin?

How does it relate-- if at all-- to Romans 6: 1,2, 15?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

John, I hope you ask this for others' edification. You and I are so familiar with Paul's teachings that is is stamped on our souls.

Actually, yes, I do. I write for posters as well as for the many people who just read and never write.

But this time, I really did mean my question for you, Jawge. It isn't that I think you don't know the answer, but I'm trying to point out something I believe is important to understand about the relationship between law and gospel.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

....Romans 6: 15 answers your question:

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

The Bible makes it quite clear that God's Grace covers us, not the Law.

But I don't feel that you've answered my question of what "under the law" means.

Has God's law been nullified by the cross?

The Bible clearly says that we believers in Christ are not under law but that we are under grace. But does that mean we are now free to disregard or disobey God's law? Or does God's grace mean that we will want to do God's will and that God provides us with the power of His Spirit so that we are increasingly enabled to glorify God in our lives?

I'm not claiming here that grace means we cease to sin in the absolute sense prior to Christ's return. Nevertheless, don't you agree that when we're under God's grace, our life is significantly different than it was before Christ began to reign in it?

That change is often called sanctification, the process of becoming more and more like Jesus. Not that we ever do it perfectly, of course. But what did Jesus do? He obeyed His Father's commandments. So becoming more like Jesus means we also obey our heavenly Father's commandments.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawje

Highest regards to a fellow nerd.

Thank you, very much, Jawge. Not too much that is more fun than talking with a fellow nerd about mutual interests or passions, is there? Well, OK, maybe that's a bit of an overstatement, you think? LOL

[JawgeFromJawja]

If we have faith in Christ as our Lord and Savior, does it mean that we don't need to obey God's law-- specifically the Ten Commandments?

If so, why would that be the case?

Look at 1 Tim. 1: 8-14--

Quote:

1:8 But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;

1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,

1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;

1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.

1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

1:13 Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious: but I obtained mercy, because I did [it] ignorantly in unbelief.

1:14 And the grace of our Lord was exceeding abundant with faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

QUESTION:

What was the effect upon Paul of his faith in Christ with respect to God's moral law, the Ten Commandments?

Did Paul claim that faith in Christ freed him from obedience to God's law? (See 1 Cor. 9: 21.)

NOTE:

a) The law of God is for people who do not obey it. For instance, the law of God is for people who live in violation of the law against lying, etc.

Right. The Law is not for we who are under Grace. The Law kills - you have heard that over and over. God's Grace saves.

What happens to people who have faith in Christ? Do they violate the law of God more? Or do they begin to obey the law of God by the grace and power of God? Did Paul continue to blaspheme and persecute?

Paul repeatedly says that Grace does not give us license to sin, sin being non-loving behavior. We are to behave in a loving manner. It is that simple. You do not murder those you love. You do not deceive or steal from those you love. Sin becomes not acting in love; sin is hurting those you love. You will retort that sin is rebellion against God - so be it. If you love God, you do not rebel against Him, that being an unloving act.

Or did Paul stop blaspheming God and persecuting people after he accepted Christ as his Savior and Lord?

Of course he did. Paul wrote the book on love. See I Cor Chapter 13.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Quote:

BobRyan said:

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

Agape

[John317]

...Paul repeatedly says that Grace does not give us license to sin, sin being non-loving behavior.

I agree that God's grace does not give us license to sin.

How does the Bible define sin?

And what is loving behavior?

Isn't it being like Christ (at least as much as we sinners are able to) in our relationships with other fallen people?

[BobRyan]

Quote:

BobRyan said:

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

Can you honestly see a mandate in Mark 2: 27 for gentiles keeping the Sabbath? If anything, "not mankind made for the Sabbath" says that mankind was not made to be a servant to the Fourth Commandment.

[BobRyan]

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of being "under the law"?

It means "under the curse of the law" and is speaking to the lost who prior to coming to Christ are condemned.

But for the saints "What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1Cor 7:19.

For the saints "If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15.

For the saints "They keep the Commandments of God" Rev 14.

For the saints "do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we establish the Law of God" Rom 3:31

For the saints we have the New Covenant and the "Law of God written on the heart" as we see in Heb 8.

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

in Christ,

Bob

[JawgeFromJawja]

Quote:

BobRyan said:

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Can you honestly see a mandate in Mark 2: 27 for gentiles keeping the Sabbath? If anything, "not mankind made for the Sabbath" says that mankind was not made to be a servant to the Fourth Commandment.

In Genesis 1 - 2 we have the "Making" of both the Sabbath and mankind.

In Mark 2:27 Christ speaks to the "Making" of both the Sabbath and Mankind.

In Ex 20:11 God refers back to the events whereby we have the "making of both the Sabbath and mankind".

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

You say "oh no it was not... it was only made for Jews and not FOR mankind".

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Bob, I said no such thing. I don't think. What I said is that Sabbath Keeping was mandated for Jews, not Gentiles.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath..shall ALL MANKIND come before Me To Worship" Is 66.

in fact you are arguing that mankind is blessed by ignoring God's sabbath memorial of Creation, and only having it apply to Jews.

George Replies

Please do not put words in my mouth. I argued or implied no such thing.

Bob said -

Your argument is the opposite of what we find in Mark 2. (and in Isaiah 66)

Is it any wonder that baptists like D.L. Moody and the Seventh-day Baptist pick up on this idea that the Sabbath is applicable to all mankind?

How then could the Sunday-Keeping Adventists possibly have been able to turn a blind eye to that Bible evidence? Clearly they could not.

No matter what you believe about others - the bible facts listed above speak for themselves. And the historic facts that these views on the Sabbath originating in Eden and being binding on mankind are not just held by Advenists - but this was the view of your own D.L.Moody and of your own Seventh-day Baptists.

Bob, I just cannot derive from these verses, which were addressed to Israel, a mandate that all mankind KEEP

the Sabbath. The message you would like to read into The Bible DOES NOT mandate Gentile keeping of the Sabbath:

Exo 19:25 So Moses went down unto the people, and spake unto them.

This is the last verse of Exodus 19. God is speaking to Israel through Moses.

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Exo 20:4 Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:

Exo 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

Exo 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Exo 20:7 Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain; for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Exo 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Exo 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Exo 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The rest of God's Law follows. In the above verses, Ex 20: 1 - 11, I see no mandate for any group, nation, or institution (such as The Christian Church) to keep the Sabbath.

You say, "No matter what you believe about others - the bible facts listed above speak for themselves."

I agree. The above verses speak for themselves. They loudly proclaim that Israel was required to keep the Sabbath. You are unable to show me otherwise.

God's love,

[Stan]

Would be interested to see scripture showing the Sabbath was just for the Jews. I know Arabs kept it, they were not Jewish. Mohammed kept it in his early years when he was Hanif.

In many languages of people that had no connection with the Jewish people, the Seventh day is a rest day in their language, including historical black african language.

I do hope that not all comments to you put you on the defence, that can kind of spoil the fun of coming here.

Have a appreciated your story and other comments you have made.

[John317]

The Sabbath is really a symbol of freedom. God doesn't want people to keep it because they feel they have to keep it. God gives the Sabbath to mankind as a gift.

Whose Sabbath is it? Does God ever refer to the seventh-day Sabbath as "your Sabbath"?

Doesn't God call it, rather, "My holy day" and "the Sabbath of the Lord thy God"?

Is He the Lord of only the Jews? Isn't God also your God?

The Bible tell us that God made the Sabbath thousands of years before the first Jew existed. He made the seventh day of the week holy and blessed. Jesus, who made the Sabbath, also testifies that He made the Sabbath as a benifit to all mankind.

So the Sabbath is a gift to mankind, not merely to the Jews.

Why then would anyone refuse to accept God's gift?

And why would anyone require a direct command repeated under the New Covenant in order to accept it?

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: John3:17

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of being "under the law"?

Does Gal. 5: 18 mean that when people are led by the Holy Spirit, they don't need to obey God's law-- that they are free to sin?

How does it relate-- if at all-- to Romans 6: 1,2, 15?

Let Scripture Itself answer your question. It is very clear:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

John, I hope you ask this for others' edification. You and I are so familiar with Paul's teachings that is is stamped on our souls.

Actually, yes, I do. I write for posters as well as for the many people who just read and never write.

But this time, I really did mean my question for you, Jawge. It isn't that I think you don't know the answer, but I'm trying to point out something I believe is important to understand about the relationship between law and gospel.

I think my position on the Law was clear. Your degree of belaboring the point makes me suspect that you are trying to slip works as a requirement for salvation in the back door. If I am wrong, my sincerest apologies AND regrets.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

....Romans 6: 15 answers your question:

Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

Not only is that Elizabethan English, those words remain good clear English.

The Bible makes it quite clear that God's Grace covers us, not the Law.

But I don't feel that you've answered my question of what "under the law" means.

Has God's law been nullified by the cross?

Yes. The burden of the Law was nullified by the cross. I could not say or believe otherwise with any integrity.

For the Jews, this was a New Covenant, and being new , replaced the Old Covenant.

For Gentiles, it was a New Covenant in the sense of providing salvation by Grace through faith, not by the works of the Law. But The Bible states explicitly that no one constantly kept the Law.

The Bible clearly says that we believers in Christ are not under law but that we are under grace. But does that mean we are now free to disregard or disobey God's law? Or does God's grace mean that we will want to do God's will and that God provides us with the power of His Spirit so that we are increasingly enabled to glorify God in our lives?

I'm not claiming here that grace means we cease to sin in the absolute sense prior to Christ's return. Nevertheless, don't you agree that when we're under God's grace, our life is significantly different than it was before Christ began to reign in it?

In this, you are absolutely correct.

That change is often called sanctification, the process of becoming more and more like Jesus. Not that we ever do it perfectly, of course. But what did Jesus do? He obeyed His Father's commandments. So becoming more like Jesus means we also obey our heavenly Father's commandments.

You got it partially right. We become more like Jesus in living a life of love, being motivated by love. However, when in the flesh, Jesus was a Jew, an ethnic Jew from birth. You have a difficult task ahead of you if you intend to convince me or most other non-SDA Christians to become Jewish in attitude and behavior. Becoming Jewish is not necessary for salvation - Acts Chapter 15 and much of Paul's writings assure us of that.

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawje

Highest regards to a fellow nerd. I dunno about you, John, but I'm proud to be a nerd.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Would be interested to see scripture showing the Sabbath was just for the Jews. I know Arabs kept it, they were not Jewish. Mohammed kept it in his early years when he was Hanif.

In many languages of people that had no connection with the Jewish people, the Seventh day is a rest day in their language, including historical black african language.

I do hope that not all comments to you put you on the defence, that can kind of spoil the fun of coming here.

Have a appreciated your story and other comments you have made.

Stan, there is no Scripture showing the Sabbath to be for Jews only. I regret it if my ramblings conveyed that idea to any one. Neither is there Scripture mandating Sabbath keeping for Gentiles. Again, I refer you to Mechon Mamre and to Judaism 101. Both of them can be easily by Google's marvelous process. I have been delighted looking around both sites. Of course, it doesn't take much to make an old man happy.

Me on the defense? Being an ole attack Jawja Bulldawg, I'm having a blast. Thanks. It has been an experience. A totally positive experience.

Several Adventists have committed themselves to me at least to look at the forum.

Agape