Sabbath Keeping: Mandated for Whom? A Question from a Heretical Bapt

[John317]

Me on the defense? Being an ole attack Jawja Bulldawg, I'm having a blast. Thanks. It has been an experience. A totally positive experience.

Me too, Jawge. I feel the very same way.

When members of this Forum meet and can talk in person, it's incredible. I met someone twice this past week that has been posting on here for over a year, and it was just like we had known each other for years. We talked for 6 straight hours over dinner and then for an hour and a half after the restaurant closed. Then we went to a ball game together yesterday and we spent most of the time talking during the game. It was a blast. That's what this Forum can do for people.

[Stan]

Photos John317? :)

[John317]

I promise to get some photos next time we meet. We'll do that pretty soon since he lives only about half an hour away .

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

Quote:

BobRyan said:

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

In Genesis 1 - 2 we have the "Making" of both the Sabbath and mankind.

In Mark 2:27 Christ speaks to the "Making" of both the Sabbath and Mankind.

In Ex 20:11 God refers back to the events whereby we have the "making of both the Sabbath and mankind".

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

You say "oh no it was not... it was only made for Jews and not FOR mankind".

What I said is that Sabbath Keeping was mandated for Jews, not Gentiles.

"From Sabbath to Sabbath..shall ALL MANKIND come before Me To Worship" Is 66.

in fact you are arguing that mankind is blessed by ignoring God's sabbath memorial of Creation, and only having it apply to Jews.

Your argument is the opposite of what we find in Mark 2. (and in Isaiah 66)

Is it any wonder that baptists like D.L. Moody and the Seventh-day Baptist pick up on this idea that the Sabbath is applicable to all mankind?

How then could the Sunday-Keeping Adventists possibly have been able to turn a blind eye to that Bible evidence? Clearly they could not.

The historic facts that these views on the Sabbath originating in Eden and being binding on mankind are not just held by Advenists - but this was the view of your own D.L.Moody and of your own Seventh-day Baptists.

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Me on the defense? Being an ole attack Jawja Bulldawg, I'm having a blast. Thanks. It has been an experience. A totally positive experience.

Me too, Jawge. I feel the very same way.

When members of this Forum meet and can talk in person, it's incredible. I met someone twice this past week that has been posting on here for over a year, and it was just like we had known each other for years. We talked for 6 straight hours over dinner and then for an hour and a half after the restaurant closed. Then we went to a ball game together yesterday and we spent most of the time talking during the game. It was a blast. That's what this Forum can do for people.

I'm in agreement with you guys.

[BobRyan]

If George is in North Ga - maybe we can work something out...

[John317]

Would be interested to see scripture showing the Sabbath was just for the Jews. I know Arabs kept it, they were not Jewish. Mohammed kept it in his early years when he was Hanif.

I'm interested in studying this topic-- Muhammad's and other Arab's relationship to the Sabbath.

Do you know if Muhammad was keeping the Sabbath at the time he had his first contact with the spirit in the cave of Hira? He was one of the Hunafa at that time, but I see nothing in Muslim literature that describes him as keeping the Sabbath during those years. What's the source of your information on this?

[John317]

I think that would be great, Bob.

A few years ago, I also met, and had a wonderful time, with two members of AdventistForum who live in Georgia.

[BobRyan]

I think that would be great, Bob.

A few years ago, I also met, and had a wonderful time, with two members of AdventistForum who live in Georgia.

I thought you lived in the west - are you out here in the land of the blessed?

[John317]

Yeah, I'm out WEst in S. California, but I have family in east Tennessee, and so once in a while I travel out there to see them.

[John317]

Next time I'm out there I will get in touch with you so we could meet. I plan to drive out to Tennessee some time this year. I would like to also meet Shane on my way through Texas if that's possible.

[John317]

Exo 20:1 And God spake all these words, saying,

Exo 20:2 I am the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

Exo 20:3 Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Your argument fails at the outset as if only Israel is to have "no other gods".

This is such an important point, Bob.

This is the same God that we have. He is also our Redeemer, not only the Redeemer of physical Israel. Just as He saved the Jews out of slavery in Egypt, He saved us out of slavery to our sins. And as you point out here, we're also to have no other gods before us. I can't see how people think God's holy day is only for Jews, as if we aren't part of mankind as much as Jews are. AS we've pointed out before, God made the Sabbath thousands of years before the first Jew even existed.

God made the Sabbath for man, yet according to some, God kept it a secret from the first man and didn't tell anyone about it for thousands of years. And according to this view, when God did finally tell anyone about the Sabbath, He only told the Jews.

Why would God make a magnificent gift such as the Sabbath and only share it with the Jews?

The Bible says that there is no partiality with God. Romans 2: 11.

Isaiah 56: 1-7 clearly shows that God wants everyone to know about the Sabbath.

Quote:

56:1 Thus saith the LORD, Keep ye judgment, and do justice: for my salvation [is] near to come, and my righteousness to be revealed.

56:2 Blessed [is] the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man [that] layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

56:3 Neither let the son of the stranger, that hath joined himself to the LORD, speak, saying, The LORD hath utterly separated me from his people: neither let the eunuch say, Behold, I [am] a dry tree.

56:4 For thus saith the LORD unto the eunuchs that keep my sabbaths, and choose [the things] that please me, and take hold of my covenant;

56:5 Even unto them will I give in mine house and within my walls a place and a name better than of sons and of daughters: I will give them an everlasting name, that shall not be cut off.

56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;

56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices [shall be] accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

[John317]

... Your degree of belaboring the point makes me suspect that you are trying to slip works as a requirement for salvation in the back door. If I am wrong, my sincerest apologies AND regrets.

Will workers of iniquity-- or those who practice lawlessness-- be allowed into heaven?

Jesus Himself said:

7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Compare with Matt. 5: 17-20; 1 Cor. 6: 9-11; Rev. 22: 12, 14, 15.

[John317]

...First, look at the doctrine of the Trinity. Jesus, God, God the Holy Spirit, are all the same. Don't just pay lip service to the doctrine of the trinity. Either Jesus is God the Father and God the Holy Spirit and God the Son, or He is not.

If you accept the doctrine of the Trinity, then as The Holy Spirit Jesus returned the second time on the Day of Pentecost as described in the New Testament. If you want to dance around that concept, then give up the doctrine of the Trinity.

Jesus Christ is not the Father and the Holy Spirit. They are three distinct, divine Persons. They are the same in nature, character, and purpose, but not in person.

Matt. 28:19-- Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, [even] unto the end of the world. Amen.

NOTE: in the above, there are three distinct Persons mentioned.

2 Cor.13:14-- The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the communion of the Holy Ghost, [be] with you all. Amen.

Here 3 living persons are mentioned, not one.

[Gerr]

And if you come as far as western NC, I would like to meet you also.

[John317]

That would be wonderful, too, Gerry. I'd sure enjoy meeting you. That is actually not that far from east Tennessee. My sisters live near Chattanooga. Before I drive back, I'll be sure to let you know.

I remember you were here in California a few years ago and were expected to meet with several of us, including another doctor, at the Spaghetti Factory in Riverside. Remember that? But then maybe you weren't able to get out to California, after all.

[Gerr]

Actually, the passages I referenced mandate only the Jews and those dwelling with them keep the Sabbath. But there is no restriction on Sabbath keeping by non-Jews.

Again, those passages are Exodus 19:25; Exodus 20:1, 2;

[color:#000099]

Had a Hittite or a Chinese or anyone else responded to God's call instead of Abraham, all those places where you see "Israel" would have said "Hittite" or "Chinese". It is quite natural that if our President addresses our nation, he would be referring to Americans. But if a Russian or a Filipino became American citizens, would a different American law apply to them? To paraphrase Paul, "Is Obama the president of native born Americans only? Is he not also the president of the naturalized foreign born also?" Jawge, that just doesn't make sense! E pluribus unum! Remember? ONE Lord. ONE God. ONE faith. ONE baptism. ONE covenant. ONE door. ONE mediator between God & man. ONE way of salvation.

ESV | ‎Is 56:6 “And the foreigners who join themselves to the LORD, to minister to him, to love the name of the LORD, and to be his servants, everyone who keeps the Sabbath and does not profane it, and holds fast my covenant— ‎7 these I will bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer; their burnt offerings and their sacrifices will be accepted on my altar; for my house shall be called a house of prayer for all peoples.”

Since practically ALL of God's promises in the OT were addressed directly to Jews or Israelites that Gentile believers could not claim those promises?

[Gerr]

[

While there is no proscription for non-Jews on keeping the Sabbath in Torah, there is no dispensation to partially keep the Sabbath. The Scriptural penalty for violating the Sabbath is quite severe, death by stoning.

Paul's Epistle to the Galatians makes it quite clear that we Christians receive the Spirit, that is, we are justified in Christ.

And look at these very interesting verses:

Gal 3:26 for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus,

Gal 3:27 for as many as to Christ were baptized did put on Christ;

Gal 3:28 there is not here Jew or Greek, there is not here servant nor freeman, there is not here male and female, for all ye are one in Christ Jesus;

Gal 3:29 and if ye are of Christ then of Abraham ye are seed, and according to promise--heirs.

Jawge, I've been trying to get your attention on Gal 3:28! That God is no respecter of persons. He makes no distinction between Jew & Greek, slave & free.

Quote:

We heirs of Abraham. But heirs to the burden of the Law? No. We are heirs to salvation in The Lord.

Are you saying, Jawge, that Jewish Christians are still carrying the "burden of the Law" while Gentile believers are enjoying the blessings of salvation?

Are you calling God's Law a "burden?" The law that James called "the perfect law, the law of liberty" & "royal law" ESV | ‎Jas 1:25; 2:8? The law that the psalmist loved? (Ps 119:47) The law that the psalmist pronounced a blessing on whoever kept it? (Ps 119:1-2). The yoke that Jesus was "light & easy"? (Mt 11:28,29)

If the "observe days" also includes the 7th day Sabbath of the 4th commandment, then, are telling us, Jawge, that keeping the 4th and therefore the other 9 also, brings the keeper of the law into "bondage" or slavery?

[BobRyan]

Yeah, I'm out WEst in S. California, but I have family in east Tennessee, and so once in a while I travel out there to see them.

Would be a pleasure to visit with you next time you are out this way my friend.

in Christ,

Bob

[JawgeFromJawja]

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

You say "oh no it was not... it was only made for Jews and not FOR mankind".

[BobRyan]

The Sabbath was made as a blessing FOR mankind.

Mark 2:27 Christ HIMSELF states that at the MAKING of the Sabbath it was MADE for "mankind" and not "MANKIND MADE for the Sabbath" pointing back to Genesis 1-2 and the "Making" of BOTH.

In Mark 2:27 Christ said the the Sabbath was "made FOR mankind".

You say oh no it was not... it was only made for Jews and not FOR mankind.

[JawgeFromJawja]

Originally Posted By: JawgeFromJawja

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of being "under the law"?

Does Gal. 5: 18 mean that when people are led by the Holy Spirit, they don't need to obey God's law-- that they are free to sin?

How does it relate-- if at all-- to Romans 6: 1,2, 15?

I am back. As I said earlier, while under anesthesia I had a beautiful and positive dream about you guys and dolls of Club Adventist.

Under the Law? That would be an obligation to keep The "Law" of the Torah, which is the sum total of the Laws and directives found in the first five books of the Jewish and Christian Bible. That Law involves many complex explanations and exceptions, and penalties for breaking that Law are draconian (horrendously excessive). You can try to make a case for there being two sets of laws, the spiritual and the ritual, but if you try to make such a case, you will expel a buncha hot air meaning nothing, and having an exceptionally foul odor.

Having met God personally on Christmas Morning 2010, I can no longer accept the convolutions and penalties concerning "The Law" of The Torah. God is a God of Love, understanding, wisdom, and intelligence. The Torah is derived from the primitive, incomplete, and inaccurate understanding of God by Israel, which unfortunately has largely been accepted with much cognitive dissonance by Christians:

From the Old Testament to the New Testament, there is a definite change in the perception of God and God's requirements and expectations. This is verified in Matthew Chapters 5, 6, and 7: typically, in those chapters Jesus says "You have heard --- but I say --- ". The change in the perception of God and God's requirements can be summed up in one word, LOVE.

LOVE, AGAPE,

[BobRyan]

Gal 5:18 But if ye be led of the Spirit, ye are not under the law.

What does the Bible mean when it speaks of being "under the law"?

Does Gal. 5: 18 mean that when people are led by the Holy Spirit, they don't need to obey God's law-- that they are free to sin?

How does it relate-- if at all-- to Romans 6: 1,2, 15?

[doug yowell]

Having met God personally on Christmas Morning 2010,

Which God did you meet on that Sabbath morning,G, the One who "blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it", or the One who said, "The Sabbath was made for man..."? Was it the God who said "Thou SHALT love the Lord thy God... and thy neighbor as thyself", or the One who said "On this hangs ALL the law and the prophets"?